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So doing some math vs. MEQs:
Ranger: 2/3 to hit * 1/2 to wound * 1/3 to break save = 1/9, or 2/27 Wound + 1/27 Wound & Mortal = 11% Wound + 4% Mortal
Illic: 5/6 to hit * 5/6 to wound * 5/6 to break save = 125/216, or 100/25 Wound + 25/100 Wound & Mortal = 58% Wound + 12% Mortal

Rangers are 15% the cost of Illic (or 6 2/3 Rangers = 1 Illic)

So the average return for equal points, assuming my math is correct, is (6 2/3 vs. 1):
Wounds: 0.73 for Rangers vs. 0.58 for Illic
Mortal Wounds: 0.27 for Rangers vs. 0.12 for Illic

* Vs. T3 or Sv 4+ or worse, Rangers give an even better return while Illic is already “maxed out” on his odds against MEQs.
* Didn’t bother running TEQs as they’re not going to be as common a target as (e.g.) an Apoc or Painboy.
* Illic vs. Necrons (is Sv 3+ the 8E value? That’s what I used): he goes to .8 Wounds and .16 Mortal Wounds. Not too much better, but slightly outperforms equal points of Rangers.
* As a target, Illic is no more difficult to hit/wound/break save than Rangers.
* There’s a negative opportunity cost for making Illic your Warlord compared to an Autarch, especially as most WLTs are useless to Illic or he’ll be too far away from anything besides Rangers/Reapers to help most of your army out.
* Hits from a long-distance non-sniper weapon (which usually has damage >1) kills Illic after 2-3 hits while reducing Rangers by 1 model per hit. (I’m assuming your opponent isn’t pointing 6 lascannons in one turn at your Rangers hoping to get Morale casualties.)
* Warlock debuff enemies equally for either target and buffs don’t help. The only psychic power that really helps offense is a Farseer’s Guide, which increases a Ranger unit’s chance to hit by 33%, compared to about 17% for Illic (out of 36: 24->32 vs. 30->35).
* No force multiplication from Illic

So am I missing anything, or are Rangers clearly better against any reasonable target, excluding the marginally better returns Illic has vs. Necrons? This analysis intentionally disregards the “Any Given Sunday” argument that averages don’t mean anything and the dice do what they want, and even so, results are a lot less swing when you’re throwing 7 dice to hit/wound/break save compared to 1. Or am I missing something basic?


ETA Forgot Illic’s Power Sword but if you’re in CQC with snipers you’re screwed anyway as you’ve just lost a turn of shooting even if you don’t get swept.

Isn't Illic's gun a flat 3 damage?

That would make a big difference when targeting goober-models like Primaris Psykers or Maleific Lords, or even some HQs buried in lines trying to use screens. Two shots should do wonders, barring unusually strong invulnerable saves.

Ynnari using Words of Phoenix on Illic is something I want to see for fun. I may use a Supreme Command with Yvraine, Illic, and a Spiritseer in a medium point game to test it out.

Also, Illic is a 80 point HQ that can do that stuff.

Rangers are 60 point Troops.

There are massive perks for both cheap HQs can that have value like his sniper gun, as well as Rangers who may steal that last Wound from the target.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Isn't Illic's gun a flat 3 damage?

That would make a big difference when targeting goober-models like Primaris Psykers or Maleific Lords, or even some HQs buried in lines trying to use screens. Two shots should do wonders, barring unusually strong invulnerable saves.

Ynnari using Words of Phoenix on Illic is something I want to see for fun. I may use a Supreme Command with Yvraine, Illic, and a Spiritseer in a medium point game to test it out.

Also, Illic is a 80 point HQ that can do that stuff.

Rangers are 60 point Troops.

There are massive perks for both cheap HQs can that have value like his sniper gun, as well as Rangers who may steal that last Wound from the target.

Holy crap I completely missed the 3D on his gun. I’m blaming the enhanced Codex, which is a pain to use. It’s still only a 58% chance to hit/wound/break save but yeah, the chance to delete a key enemy support figure might be worth 80 points.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled, non-reading-impaired thread.

Good to check these things! The 3 damage is what makes Illic a good character killer. Against 1-wound models (or vehicles, if fishing for mortal wounds) rangers are better.

Note also that he's much harder to shoot than rangers due to being a character. The chances of someone getting a lascannon shot at him are pretty remote.

On the whole I think that Illic and a couple of ranger squads working together would make any enemy characters have a pretty bad day. That would then tend to mess up your opponent's plans pretty seriously, as their reroll auras and psychic buffs stopped working.

I'm pretty sure you never want Illic to be your warlord as he'd be forced to take "Puritanical Leader". I guess this could be ok if he had a bunch of guardian defenders around him, but why would you do that?

Mandragola wrote:
Good to check these things! The 3 damage is what makes Illic a good character killer. Against 1-wound models (or vehicles, if fishing for mortal wounds) rangers are better.

Note also that he's much harder to shoot than rangers due to being a character. The chances of someone getting a lascannon shot at him are pretty remote.

On the whole I think that Illic and a couple of ranger squads working together would make any enemy characters have a pretty bad day. That would then tend to mess up your opponent's plans pretty seriously, as their reroll auras and psychic buffs stopped working.

I'm pretty sure you never want Illic to be your warlord as he'd be forced to take "Puritanical Leader". I guess this could be ok if he had a bunch of guardian defenders around him, but why would you do that?

Just add him along a single ranger squad as a single patrol detachment from alaitoc and you also get the extra -1 for hit against them.

Yeah he's going to be in an Alaitoc detachment obviously, as he has the Alaitoc keyword himself.

Note that you need an HQ and two troops choices for a patrol. Personally I think I'd go for at least a battalion though. It's a good craftworld trait for dire avengers as well as rangers, and perfectly good for something like a warlock.

Illic is a decent HQ for character killing. He's rather cheap and cannot be directly targeted. Therefore, I'd take him any day in an Alaitoc army.
Whether or not I want some Ranger units in my Alaitoc army is a different issue.

Mandragola wrote:
Note that you need an HQ and two troops choices for a patrol. Personally I think I'd go for at least a battalion though. It's a good craftworld trait for dire avengers as well as rangers, and perfectly good for something like a warlock.

Patrol is 1-3 troops.
Illic + rangers make a valid detachment on their own.