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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Apologies as a search didn't find the answer I was looking for.

Do units set up in "insert convoluted way of infiltrating" but are on the board before the start of the first turn count towards tactical reserves count?

i.e. for a super simple example Could I have a HQ, 3 ranger units and 3 swooping hawk units with the 3 hawks flying and the 3 ranger units infiltrating. Before beginning of first turn I would have 3 rangers and the HQ on the board with 3 hawks in reserves.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I'm not sure...the infiltration rules are pretty scarce and somewhat vaguely worded. I'm sure this has been FAQ'ed, but last time I checked I have...20+ FAQ documents downloaded.

I'm also curious what happens when opposing players both have infiltrating units - I assume they are set up "after" you set up your normal forces, but before the game --- so you roll off, or the player who finished drops first will deploy one first, etc.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




If they aren't deployed at deployment, they don't count as part of your deployment requirement.

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Captyn_Bob wrote:
If they aren't deployed at deployment, they don't count as part of your deployment requirement.


Any more rationale behind this?

The rule literally says "When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere"

I think the key is 'must be set up on the battlefield'

Now the ranger rule goes as follows:

During deployment, you can set up this unit walking the winding paths of the webway instead of placing it on the battlefield.

- so thus far it is reasonable to assume that the unit is not being set up on the battlefield and hence would be part of your tactical reserves, however the text follows with:

At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, this unit can emerge from the webway - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy model"

So it is set up on the battlefield which would in theory mean its not part of tactical reserves?

My gut feeling says they would be part of tactical reserves, but theres sufficient doubt for me to ask for some consensus.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/05 13:38:12


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

along the same lines....

I think Phantasm doesn't work this way....but lets sayyou already fulfilled normal deployment and have your 50% of your units on the table. Then the first battle round begins and you use Phantasm......

Even though the Deployment Phase is now over and you made the mandatory requirments. Next phase you use Phantasm shenanigans?


1} Did you already determine who goes first?
2| Can you now take those Phantasm units and put them in reserves and make it so you have less than 50% on the table?

It does say in the Strategem that you follow normal deployment. So devil's advocate would sell it as you need to fulfil the 50% quota.



You would still need to have atleast 50% of your units on the board after the use of Phantasm as per the deployment requirements


 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





The deployment 'phase' just isn't a thing (unless someone can point me to its definition).

Deployment is usually described as part of the mission rules rather than any core rule, and so still unclear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elbows wrote:
I'm not sure...the infiltration rules are pretty scarce and somewhat vaguely worded. I'm sure this has been FAQ'ed, but last time I checked I have...20+ FAQ documents downloaded.

I'm also curious what happens when opposing players both have infiltrating units - I assume they are set up "after" you set up your normal forces, but before the game --- so you roll off, or the player who finished drops first will deploy one first, etc.


Unrelated, but in answer to your question; from the faq:

Q: If both players have units with abilities that allow them to be set up during deployment ‘after both armies are fully deployed’ (e.g. Ratlings’ Find the Best Spot), which player deploys their units rst?
A: The players should roll off and the winner decides.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/05 13:47:18


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

"Instead of placing it on the battlefield" seems to qualify this as Tactical Reserves. That they come in right away is immaterial, really.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster





Okay, so per the BRB, the Battle Round:

"Warhammer40,000 is played in a series of battle rounds. During each battle round, both players have a turn.The same player always takes the first turn in each battle round–the mission you are playing will tell you which player this is. Each turn consists of a series of phases,which must be resolved in order.The phases are as follows..."

Per that, I would argue that the first battle round can't begin until after it has been determined which player takes first turn, which is after the players have finished the "Deployment" step of the mission rules. Therefore, since Infiltrate takes place "at the start of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins", it happens after deployment, and at the point that the check for 50% of units on the battlefield occurs, the unit is still in whatever off-the-battlefield deployment area they initially deploy in.

"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Nova Scotia

I've actually been wondering about this as well, though I'm leaning towards 'they count as reserves'. Here's the direct rules.


So this is the Tactical Reserves rule. What I imagine to be the fluff text says "...in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements". At first that made me think that the game itself had to be in progress for this to take effect (ie the first battle round had started). But the next sentence kind of cancelled that out, haha.


This is the part that is common from the deployment mission text in matched play. The last sentence says continue setting up until both sides have set up their army. When I read that, I thought that it could be interpreted in a way that allowed units with a rule similar to the one below to be set up during the deployment portion of the mission. Of course, I needed one more piece of information before I could make an accurate decision...


...which was the 'infiltrate' rule itself. This is, to me, the nail in the coffin. It says at the start of the first battle round (which to me, means that the 'deployment' phase (for lack of better word)) has ended. So for that, we then go back up to the Tactical Reserves rule and arrive at the conclusion that they do indeed count towards the total.


TL;DR - I think they count as Tactical Reserves. Essentially anything not deployed on the battlefield in that deployment phase (once again, for lack of better word), is considered TR. I think Eldar should break the game and have it so that they can deploy anywhere outside of 9" during the deployment. Why? Because reasons

   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

So it is now the 1st Battle Round. Deployment is OVER. Your 50% has been on the board of play. Everything is legal.

You pay for the stratagem Phantasm and deploy those 3 units as if it was normal deployment.(which it isn't actually).

So would those 3 units of Warp Spiders have to be placed on the field of battle like they were before the Strategem

OR could you put them in tactical reserves now that it is the beginning of the first Battle Round????

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
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 admironheart wrote:
So it is now the 1st Battle Round. Deployment is OVER. Your 50% has been on the board of play. Everything is legal.

You pay for the stratagem Phantasm and deploy those 3 units as if it was normal deployment.(which it isn't actually).

So would those 3 units of Warp Spiders have to be placed on the field of battle like they were before the Strategem

OR could you put them in tactical reserves now that it is the beginning of the first Battle Round????


I don't see why you would. "As if it was deployment" and "during Deployment" are not the same thing.

"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

So most missions have Deployment. Then they have First Turn with sieze rolls.

So I agree with you that the Deployment requirements were met so it seems Phantasm would allow up to 3 units that were on the battlefield to now utilize Tactical Reserve Rules and getting less than 50% at the start of the first battle round.

So can you use Phantasm before Sieze the Initiative rolls or can you wait and use it afterwards?

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster





 admironheart wrote:
So most missions have Deployment. Then they have First Turn with sieze rolls.

So I agree with you that the Deployment requirements were met so it seems Phantasm would allow up to 3 units that were on the battlefield to now utilize Tactical Reserve Rules and getting less than 50% at the start of the first battle round.

So can you use Phantasm before Sieze the Initiative rolls or can you wait and use it afterwards?


I would argue that you can't use it until after the seize roll, because until then you still haven't determined player order, so the first round has not begun.

"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" 
   
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As others have stated, this is in a gray area - for friendly, non-tournament games, a general rule of thumb our circle goes by is that if an interpretation of a rule would create undue advantage while overriding certain specific RAW, we avoid that situation and give the opposing player the benefit of the doubt.

In a competitive setting, you'd go with the TO's ruling on it.

In this current situation, I'd secure a 50% clear cut deployment before claiming infiltrators and reservss.

On a second look, if your rule for infiltraiting clearly states ' during deployment... set up this unit [INSERT SOME FLUFF STUFF HERE] instead of placing it on the battlefield' then it is in tactical reserves. The wording on it is identical to any other deep strike rule, just that this particular means of deep striking has restrictions forcing the unit to be deployed 'mid-battle' at the start of first game turn. Which is good since its pre-movement phase allowing you to move after deepstriking.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/07 15:15:55


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

I think you are not familiar with Phantasm stratagem.

So I have 10 units.
The mission calls for 50% deployed on the battlefield.
During deployment 5 units are in tactical reserves and 2 tanks and 3 units with deep strike abilities are placed on the table. Lets say I stick the 3 deep strike units out in the open and very vulnerable. Baiting my opponent to set up for an easy kill.

So we roll for initiative.....turns are decided.....and first turn is about to begin.
I use Phantasm Strategem. I now can redeploy 3 of my units following the deployment instructions.

This is where I would say that even though Deployment is long over the mission criteria would STILL BE BINDING on the 50%. But others have made the claim that I ALREADY fulfilled the mission criteria previously.

I now take the 3 deep striking units and put them in tactical reserves. so now I only have 20% of my units on the battlefield....First turn is now underway.

See the issue I brought forward? The debate is how you see it. I would love the latter option but think that the former should be correct.

thoughts????

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
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Palm Beach, FL

As long as you end Deployment with 50% I'd say you should be good to use Phantasm, even if it brings you below 50%.
   
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
As long as you end Deployment with 50% I'd say you should be good to use Phantasm, even if it brings you below 50%.

I agree with this. While generously used, the term "Tactical Reserves" in regards to the issue of this discussion refers only to the pre-game turn determinations.

As far as phantasm goes, according to google sources, does it really allow you to "re-deploy" the said units into deep striking [ENTER FLUFFY AREA OF BACK STORY ON HOW THEY DEEP STRIKE HERE]? It seems more like "eh, I want to place my units here instead of where it was because you just surrounded them with 300 conscripts" manuever rather than "I'm just going to stay on battlefield right before the game starts just to fulfill the tactical reserves rules and jump into the webway and come back later!"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/07 23:18:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





1. Rangers are set up during deployment, they just have a special rule which modifies where they can be setup. They are not in tactical reserves.

2. The stratagem Phantasm does not allow a player to put units in to tactical reserves as it specifies they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up. Therefore the only RAW thing you can do with units affected by Phantasm is set them up not put them in tactical reserves.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/08 17:22:44


 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Kenosha, WI

blaktoof wrote:
1. Rangers are set up during deployment, they just have a special rule which modifies where they can be setup. They are not in tactical reserves.

2. The stratagem Phantasm does not allow a player to put units in to tactical reserves as it specifies they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up. Therefore the only RAW thing you can do with units affected by Phantasm is set them up not put them in tactical reserves.


Rangers appear "at the start of the first turn."
   
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 Elhazard wrote:
Rangers appear "at the start of the first turn."

Correction: Rangers appear "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins." The wording on its Appear Unbidden is quite specific in that it must be set up before the game begins, even if you (the eldar player w/ the said rangers) are going second.

The Appear Unbidden is a special type of deepstrike (see below for explanation) with alternate restrictions. In the OP's particular case, even if the rangers re-entered deployment, and by extension of the wording of Phantasm, was allowed to utilize the Appear Unbidden rule, the rangers WILL need to be set up immediately as it must enter the game BEFORE it begins. Thus, rangers CANNOT be held in tactical reserves to enter in turns 1~3.

The common wording for units that can be set up in tactical reserves reads "During deployment... you can set up a unit of [INSERT UNIT HERE]... instead of placing it on the battlefield." Appear Unbidden also reads in same wording, except instead of the typical "at the end of any of your movement phase" it says "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins"

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/11/08 19:31:06


 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

blaktoof wrote:
The stratagem Phantasm does not allow a player to put units in to tactical reserves as it specifies they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up.they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up. Therefore the only RAW thing you can do with units affected by Phantasm is set them up not put them in tactical reserves.


your quote:
The common wording for units that can be set up in tactical reserves reads "During deployment... you can set up a unit of [INSERT UNIT HERE]... instead of placing it on the battlefield."



So blaktoof is incorrect here and Phantasm does indeed set up units on the battlefield or in tactical reserve if those units have that ability

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 admironheart wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The stratagem Phantasm does not allow a player to put units in to tactical reserves as it specifies they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up.they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up. Therefore the only RAW thing you can do with units affected by Phantasm is set them up not put them in tactical reserves.


your quote:
The common wording for units that can be set up in tactical reserves reads "During deployment... you can set up a unit of [INSERT UNIT HERE]... instead of placing it on the battlefield."



So blaktoof is incorrect here and Phantasm does indeed set up units on the battlefield or in tactical reserve if those units have that ability


Right. But in this particular interpretation of RAW, it is indeed creating an undue advatange that is allowing you to bypass a very concrete restrictions on the 50% reserves limit... or perhaps this was as intended... HIWPI is different from HYWPI, but I'd rule against "entry" into tactical reserves at our friendly games..
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





USA

That is why In my first post I think it did not work this way.....the rule still states that you set up as per the deployment rules of the mission.

ergo: you now have 3 of your 10 units off the table...you need to set up 3 and you only have 2 deployed on the battlefield.
Mission states that a 50% min for set up. So to follow that you would have to put those 3 back on the tabletop.

That was my original assertion....but I wanted to see what others thought....hence the posts in this forum.

Because it would be a nice tactic if you lost first turn you could retool your gameplan.

 koooaei wrote:
We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 admironheart wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The stratagem Phantasm does not allow a player to put units in to tactical reserves as it specifies they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up.they must be set up, units put into tactical reserves are not set up. Therefore the only RAW thing you can do with units affected by Phantasm is set them up not put them in tactical reserves.


your quote:
The common wording for units that can be set up in tactical reserves reads "During deployment... you can set up a unit of [INSERT UNIT HERE]... instead of placing it on the battlefield."



So blaktoof is incorrect here and Phantasm does indeed set up units on the battlefield or in tactical reserve if those units have that ability


Given the wording of warp spiders and swooping Hawks special rules use set up I am changing my opinion to agree with you.

As for rangers I mistakenly thought they setup like scouts for some reason, they indeed would count against tactical reserves limit as they are not setup during deployment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 01:39:46


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 admironheart wrote:
That is why In my first post I think it did not work this way.....the rule still states that you set up as per the deployment rules of the mission.

ergo: you now have 3 of your 10 units off the table...you need to set up 3 and you only have 2 deployed on the battlefield.
Mission states that a 50% min for set up. So to follow that you would have to put those 3 back on the tabletop.

That was my original assertion....but I wanted to see what others thought....hence the posts in this forum.

Because it would be a nice tactic if you lost first turn you could retool your gameplan.


Well, you can still potentially bait your opponent by placing your high-threat units up front, make them look like they're trying to blitz your opponents high-priority target. Force them to deploy against that, scoop them up with Phantasm. Maintain 50% deployment as to avoid potential arguments and place them back in reserves?
   
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Deadly Dire Avenger




Kenosha, WI

 skchsan wrote:
 Elhazard wrote:
Rangers appear "at the start of the first turn."

Correction: Rangers appear "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins." The wording on its Appear Unbidden is quite specific in that it must be set up before the game begins, even if you (the eldar player w/ the said rangers) are going second.

The Appear Unbidden is a special type of deepstrike (see below for explanation) with alternate restrictions. In the OP's particular case, even if the rangers re-entered deployment, and by extension of the wording of Phantasm, was allowed to utilize the Appear Unbidden rule, the rangers WILL need to be set up immediately as it must enter the game BEFORE it begins. Thus, rangers CANNOT be held in tactical reserves to enter in turns 1~3.

The common wording for units that can be set up in tactical reserves reads "During deployment... you can set up a unit of [INSERT UNIT HERE]... instead of placing it on the battlefield." Appear Unbidden also reads in same wording, except instead of the typical "at the end of any of your movement phase" it says "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins"


You're right, my mistake. My intent was to respond to the fact that "At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins" is after deployment.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





You are correct that it is not deployment, but a player would be using the rules for deployment if they use Phantasm then.

Much the same way if a stratagem allowed an unit to shoot during the first battle round but before the first turn. It would be true to say it's not the shooting phase, but we would still have to use all the rules for shooting to resolve the stratagem

If part of the rules for deployment are not having more than half In tactical reserves that would have to be followed anytime deployment is happening, even if that's outside of when it normal happens if we are given permission to set up as per deployment at a different time- it would still be using the rules for deployment.
   
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blaktoof wrote:
You are correct that it is not deployment, but a player would be using the rules for deployment if they use Phantasm then.

Much the same way if a stratagem allowed an unit to shoot during the first battle round but before the first turn. It would be true to say it's not the shooting phase, but we would still have to use all the rules for shooting to resolve the stratagem

If part of the rules for deployment are not having more than half In tactical reserves that would have to be followed anytime deployment is happening, even if that's outside of when it normal happens if we are given permission to set up as per deployment at a different time- it would still be using the rules for deployment.


This is not true. One, the rule does not say "as if it were the deployment phase" or "using the deployment rules", it follows its own rules for how and when the unit is set up. And even if it did use that language, there is a difference between "during x phase" and "as if it were x phase". The 50% rule is only stated as being during actual deployment.

"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" 
   
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Been Around the Block




So to add another aspect to this ... Once you Phantasm a unit is there anything to stop you cloudstriking or webway striking it.

I think not?
   
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AnFéasógMór wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
You are correct that it is not deployment, but a player would be using the rules for deployment if they use Phantasm then.

Much the same way if a stratagem allowed an unit to shoot during the first battle round but before the first turn. It would be true to say it's not the shooting phase, but we would still have to use all the rules for shooting to resolve the stratagem

If part of the rules for deployment are not having more than half In tactical reserves that would have to be followed anytime deployment is happening, even if that's outside of when it normal happens if we are given permission to set up as per deployment at a different time- it would still be using the rules for deployment.


This is not true. One, the rule does not say "as if it were the deployment phase" or "using the deployment rules", it follows its own rules for how and when the unit is set up. And even if it did use that language, there is a difference between "during x phase" and "as if it were x phase". The 50% rule is only stated as being during actual deployment.


You are using the deployment rules for Phantasm. Otherwise you have no permission as to where the units can be deployed. Those rules include the 50% rule, making this absolutely true.
   
 
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