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 Marmatag wrote:
FYI Guilliman lists didn't crack the top 5 in the last major tournament in socal. It was won by AM, followed by a couple chaos lists.

Do we have results? can you link?

Pretty sure the list I liked would do the trick with NO chapter tactics.

Martel732 wrote:
Pretty sure the list I liked would do the trick with NO chapter tactics.

Probably. Although, I think that a regular space marine list would be much better at it.

Well, yes. But that was known.

Well, the OP also claimed that the Marine codex was the single worst codex of 7th edition, so I wager this thread is definitely going to unbiased and full of open minds willing to change their opinion.

That said, GK and Ad Mech I think are worse off than Marines, based on tourney results anyways.

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the OP also claimed that the Marine codex was the single worst codex of 7th edition, so I wager this thread is definitely going to unbiased and full of open minds willing to change their opinion.

That said, GK and Ad Mech I think are worse off than Marines, based on tourney results anyways.

I agree. But I think marines end up in the bottom 33% easily in 8th.

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the OP also claimed that the Marine codex was the single worst codex of 7th edition, so I wager this thread is definitely going to unbiased and full of open minds willing to change their opinion.

That said, GK and Ad Mech I think are worse off than Marines, based on tourney results anyways.

I agree. But I think marines end up in the bottom 33% easily in 8th.

That's certainly hyperbole. They're almost certainly better than most armies without codexes, and almost strictly better than non-codex marines.

Darsath wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the OP also claimed that the Marine codex was the single worst codex of 7th edition, so I wager this thread is definitely going to unbiased and full of open minds willing to change their opinion.

That said, GK and Ad Mech I think are worse off than Marines, based on tourney results anyways.

I agree. But I think marines end up in the bottom 33% easily in 8th.

That's certainly hyperbole. They're almost certainly better than most armies without codexes, and almost strictly better than non-codex marines.

I said END UP. As in, after all codices are released. There are already a couple of index lists better than them, I think.

I don't think the SM codex is particularly strong aside from Guilliman and maybe Salamanders, and it's very weird that they don't get Chapter Tactics on things like Predators at least, but I don't really see that the stratagem comparison is very useful. You can potentially have a huge number of CP to spend on Marine stratagems, whereas Eldar are going to really struggle to exceed 12 and will more typically have 8-10. Even an Autarch warlord only provides an effective +20% CP (and he has to be on the battlefield when you use the stratagem). Meanwhile any list with Guilliman starts at 6 CP and goes from there, and gets +50% effective CP through the UM trait. Or you can bring a Guard detachment, and they have an easy time filling even Brigades. A Guard Brigade and a Marine Battalion have 15 CP to spend, and with a UM warlord you expect to be able to spend more than 21 CP (or you just use the similar Guard warlord trait, and the Guard relic that gains CP).

This sort of thing really screws over pure GK. Pure GK have a very hard time generating CP, but of course you can't just give them great stratagems because a GK Patrol and a Guard Brigade would have access to them. We actually do end up seeing GKs in some highly competitive lists, but generally only with support that incidentally generates a lot of CP.

Meanwhile Craftworld warlord traits and relics are some of the worst we've seen. This isn't a huge deal now but it's going to be yet another annoying incentive to soup when other Eldar codices have much better ones and you want to have a Harlequin warlord for your mainly-Craftworld army.

Martel732 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the OP also claimed that the Marine codex was the single worst codex of 7th edition, so I wager this thread is definitely going to unbiased and full of open minds willing to change their opinion.

That said, GK and Ad Mech I think are worse off than Marines, based on tourney results anyways.

I agree. But I think marines end up in the bottom 33% easily in 8th.

That's certainly hyperbole. They're almost certainly better than most armies without codexes, and almost strictly better than non-codex marines.

I said END UP. As in, after all codices are released. There are already a couple of index lists better than them, I think.

Shouldn't you have said, "Will end up" then? I certainly also read this as meaning currently.

Martel732 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the OP also claimed that the Marine codex was the single worst codex of 7th edition, so I wager this thread is definitely going to unbiased and full of open minds willing to change their opinion.

That said, GK and Ad Mech I think are worse off than Marines, based on tourney results anyways.

I agree. But I think marines end up in the bottom 33% easily in 8th.

That's certainly hyperbole. They're almost certainly better than most armies without codexes, and almost strictly better than non-codex marines.

I said END UP. As in, after all codices are released. There are already a couple of index lists better than them, I think.

I'm not sure how you're predicting the power level of, say, the Tau codex when it would be released. Or the Blood Angels codex, since they might get the Grey Knights or Ad Mech treatment. Really, as it stands, Marines are currently a powerful army, but 40k is likely to have some serious power creep issues. But I can't be sure of the content of any codex until we actually get something to work off of (like Chapter Approved hopefully).

I'll argue that the CSM codex is worse, but only shades of gray worse than the SM codex.

CSM have cultists and a couple decent Daemon Engines. Ok, the Lord of Skulls is amazing, but certainly not worth the rest of the codex being subpar. My lieutenant takes up an entire HQ selection and doesn't work for ranged.
SM have a whole slew of Primaris Marines, a new tank, and an am amazing Lieutenant HQ selection, for which my jealousy knows no bounds. Screw you corpse emperor.

Please shut up about tournament winning CSM smite spam lists that use precisely *zero* actual models from the CSM codex, except maybe cultists (I lied, there's one that uses 3 minned out squads of Berzerkers, praise the Ruinous Powers in their wisdom). "But, but, the Malefic lord...!" Is not a CSM unit, is universally acknowledged as stupid and underpriced, and quite frankly, is one of the only things renegades has going for it these days. Please ride a different hobby horse, chapter approved will deal with it.

SM/CSM got hosed by new edition early release codex syndrome again.

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

SM/CSM suddenly become morons who forget all their training the moment the put on a seatbelt. Imperial Fist techmarines can't figure out how to properly target a Thunderfire Cannon according the chapter doctrine, Alpha Legion marines forgot how to use camo netting over the course of 10,000 years of constant warfare. Do I really need to detail the entirety of this idiocy?

The list goes on.

As for the SoCal Open, I believe the top 8 were 2 Imperium (mostly IG based), 4 Chaos of varying builds, and 2 Ynarri. A single SM player managed to get 16th with the standard Bobby G Razor spam list.

This is what I remember off-hand from the Chapter Tactics podcast.

I think marines have a stronger codex overall than Grey Knights, Death Guard, or AdMech. However, GK has actually seen some decent placement as allies to IG lists for DS infantry and help against Magnus and Morty.

What I really dislike about the marine codex is that to have basically any tournament shot what-so-ever, a special character is required that locks your Chapter Tactic. When you remove Bobby G and look for non Ultramarines lists, you can hardly find any doing even remotely well. I think the best I can recall is Reece taking Raptors (Forge World) and going 4-2, although I can't remember what tournament and that might have even just been practice games.

To the above poster vs CSM, the codexes are almost carbon copies of each other, but there are a few swings in either direction.

SM pluses: Razorbacks, Stormravens, Bobby G

CSM pluses: Oblits, Legion Cultists, Berserkers, Noise Marines, Warptime, Easy access to two Daemon Primarchs (I know they're not in the codex, but they work as great allies that fill their own detachments, where as Marines can technically ally IG, just there is no reason to stop and not just run 2000 of IG.)

CSM have viable screening units. Marines do not.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'll argue that the CSM codex is worse, but only shades of gray worse than the SM codex.

CSM have cultists and a couple decent Daemon Engines. Ok, the Lord of Skulls is amazing, but certainly not worth the rest of the codex being subpar. My lieutenant takes up an entire HQ selection and doesn't work for ranged.
SM have a whole slew of Primaris Marines, a new tank, and an am amazing Lieutenant HQ selection, for which my jealousy knows no bounds. Screw you corpse emperor.

Please shut up about tournament winning CSM smite spam lists that use precisely *zero* actual models from the CSM codex, except maybe cultists (I lied, there's one that uses 3 minned out squads of Berzerkers, praise the Ruinous Powers in their wisdom). "But, but, the Malefic lord...!" Is not a CSM unit, is universally acknowledged as stupid and underpriced, and quite frankly, is one of the only things renegades has going for it these days. Please ride a different hobby horse, chapter approved will deal with it.

SM/CSM got hosed by new edition early release codex syndrome again.

It's very simple, every other army that is not marines gets to apply their army traits to their whole army.

SM/CSM suddenly become morons who forget all their training the moment the put on a seatbelt. Imperial Fist techmarines can't figure out how to properly target a Thunderfire Cannon according the chapter doctrine, Alpha Legion marines forgot how to use camo netting over the course of 10,000 years of constant warfare. Do I really need to detail the entirety of this idiocy?

The list goes on.

I'm sorry but this couldn't be more wrong. Alpha Legion Berzerkers are OP, Obliterators are OP, Flyng Daemon Princes with Talons are very strong, and many other units of CSM are pretty good. Ignoring a small amout that are mediocre or just bad (Normal Chaos Space Marines , Forgefiend, etc...) the Codex is actually pretty balanced.
And the Primaris units are all from mediocre to bad. Only Hellblasters are any usefull, competitively speaking, and nobody takes primaris Liutenauts when you can take the normal ones.

But I agree. Chapter and Legion tactics should apply to all the <Chapter> <Legion> units. It doesn't makes any sense now that the rest have all of their units receiving this bonuses.

thing is Gulliman can be a very powerful buff unit for ANY IoM army. we're lucky IMHO that AM players haven't clued in that they can use Gulliman pretty effectivly too

BrianDavion wrote:
thing is Gulliman can be a very powerful buff unit for ANY IoM army. we're lucky IMHO that AM players haven't clued in that they can use Gulliman pretty effectivly too

That's not a secret, it's been tried and determined that it's better to just bring more guard.

 Perth wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
thing is Gulliman can be a very powerful buff unit for ANY IoM army. we're lucky IMHO that AM players haven't clued in that they can use Gulliman pretty effectivly too

That's not a secret, it's been tried and determined that it's better to just bring more guard.

This, the amount of mortar heavy weapons teams, taurox primes, and scions/elysians you can shoehorn into a list is obscene.

Forwarned is good with Dark Reapers.....If you have Dark Reapers in your army.....if you have a Farseer HQ in your army and if you placed that 100 point unit near the Dark Reapers.

the Eldar player has to plan to limit their battleplan around the 2 CP stratagem. With 6 to 12 CP average army....is that always wise?

Really depends on the list and the players tactics but it is limiting. Is it as limiting as the Auspexs or the Mordian or the Necrons?

For as common as deep strike is nowadays, it's kinda good with anything.

 Galas wrote:

I'm sorry but this couldn't be more wrong. Alpha Legion Berzerkers are OP, Obliterators are OP, Flyng Daemon Princes with Talons are very strong, and many other units of CSM are pretty good. Ignoring a small amout that are mediocre or just bad (Normal Chaos Space Marines , Forgefiend, etc...) the Codex is actually pretty balanced.
And the Primaris units are all from mediocre to bad. Only Hellblasters are any usefull, competitively speaking, and nobody takes primaris Liutenauts when you can take the normal ones.

But I agree. Chapter and Legion tactics should apply to all the <Chapter> <Legion> units. It doesn't makes any sense now that the rest have all of their units receiving this bonuses.

Well at least we agree on the bottom line, the rest is largely subjective and colored by individual experience, mine is below. However, my point about tournament lists remains, the "Chaos Codex" lists that are winning have no significant number of CSM units in them, I saw one on BoK that had about 15 Berzerkers in it, that's it, the rest use Horrors, Malefic Lords, and scrub troops.

I agree that Berzerkers are good (they might be the only cult troop outside of a pure DG list that's worth a damn), I have owned 60+ fully painted Berzerkers for almost 20 years now, and while the Alpha Legion ones are quite good, I would argue that the delivery methodology is all you have to nail down in order to make them very effective. Having played them several times, OP is not what I would call them, they are very good, like most melee units it's very easy for them to get left out in the open and gunned down this edition. Making them last more than a turn is the trick.

Slaaneshi Obliterators where you burn 2CP a turn to make them really pump out firepower is impressive, for as long as it lasts. The variability of their weaponry can make them less than impressive at times. I suppose when I want a Lascannon I just want a Lascannon, I am old-fashioned in that regard I guess. Again, I wouldn't call them OP by any means though, they briefly made me sad in a game or two, then I shot them and I stopped being sad.

The flying DP is ok, I haven't felt any particular need to include this unit, even in my most whackadoodle theory lists. It's just too expensive for what it does unless you're going to build an entire support structure around it, and honestly, the support structure is garbage and better filled with cheaper units. I guess my point is, for the points, I'd rather have a Chaos Lord and a Sorcerer with jump packs and still pay less points than I did for the DP. Now, the bare bones DP, positioned in such a way as to provide bonuses to Horrors and CSM troops, maybe. Too expensive unless he's going to be working for his money in multiple phases, and that means getting him up and into melee, most definitely not by himself, which is where the associated garbage comes into play.

My point about Lieutenants wasn't Primaris vs Non-Primaris (I just want the buff, Primaris can take a hike), it was the fact that they are exponentially better than CSM Exalted Champions (works for ranged and melee, 2/1 in an HQ slot). As for the previous argument that CSM have cultists as screens, I would argue that 1 Patrol detachment of AM nets you a Commissar and as many Conscripts as you want, for pretty much the same price. I'll call that a wash, especially since my choices for improving Cultist morale involve either Abaddon ( ) or a Dark Apostle on babysitting duty.

This post is rediculouse.

NO other army has as much variety available as imperials. They have fliers, transports, scouts, deepstriking transports, snipers, assassins, etc.

Quit complaining and compare your army to bids, Orks or ANY other army.

Oh, this is priceless.

How many people are stuck with an index? While you literally got a massive faction expansion. New models all over the place.

Chapter approved coming out, which is speculative evidence they are going to adjust the game balance as it matures.

Meanwhile ork players are trying to figure out the difference between a shoota and a club, thanks eldar for making this joke possible. Because seriously going pewpew with a twig in hand has been working for decades. Now the soft skin pointy ears are making them look like fools. All while working with some models so old they make the emperor look like a spring chicken.

SM dex not the auto-win you wanted? No need to cry, your next big release is probably only 6 months away.

It's definitely weak in appearance compared to just about everything else since.

I still think we'll be seeing a second wave of Primaris kits in 2018, and perhaps eventually a Primaris codex (which will put the coffin lid on proper Space Marines).

Darsath wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, the OP also claimed that the Marine codex was the single worst codex of 7th edition, so I wager this thread is definitely going to unbiased and full of open minds willing to change their opinion.

That said, GK and Ad Mech I think are worse off than Marines, based on tourney results anyways.

I agree. But I think marines end up in the bottom 33% easily in 8th.

That's certainly hyperbole. They're almost certainly better than most armies without codexes, and almost strictly better than non-codex marines.

Talk to Tau whi can bring Stormsurge and Commander spam

Have the salamanders got any better or worse with the codex.....looking for a small side army to run and have always been intrigued by them

Xenomancers... Plucking a single unit, choice, character, rule etc out from a Codex in isolation and comparing it to a single choice from another codex in isolation is not "proof" of anything (other than the fact you have a massive chip on your shoulder.)

Balance does not mean that all factions are the same. It means that a list can be built from one codex and countered by another codex, then the list from the original codex can then be countered by another list and so on.

If you don't like it. Leave. Do something else. You aren't owed anything from this.

Space Marine players: vocally whiny whenever their list isn't both the first, AND the best, rules available.

Never mind that they just got their whole model range updated for the second time in a decade while most other factions use fourth Ed and older sculpts. Never mind that Forgeworld exists to create them models. That they got, as usual, the first codex and have two more upcoming. And furthermore that they've had several of the dominant meta lists in the still emerging 8th meta.

If space Marines don't have THE best version of EVERY rule at ALL TIMES, you will hear about how utterly unfair it is and how everything needs to stop until the Marines are buffed and made the best again.

the_scotsman wrote:
Space Marine players: vocally whiny whenever their list isn't both the first, AND the best, rules available.

Never mind that they just got their whole model range updated for the second time in a decade while most other factions use fourth Ed and older sculpts. Never mind that Forgeworld exists to create them models. That they got, as usual, the first codex and have two more upcoming. And furthermore that they've had several of the dominant meta lists in the still emerging 8th meta.

If space Marines don't have THE best version of EVERY rule at ALL TIMES, you will hear about how utterly unfair it is and how everything needs to stop until the Marines are buffed and made the best again.

As a point of curiosity, is your username the_scotsman because of your fondness for fallacious arguments?