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2017/11/17 19:54:02
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
A storm raven remains a transport and a gunboat. One does not mutually exclude the other, and having the ability to do both is incredible. My original statement stands. Breng77 was just selectively ignoring that fact.
Berserkers can be troops in attachments without any psykers. Noise marines can be troops in any detatchment without berserkers. They are both good but they also retain limitations.
You can get a lord with a power sword and a sorcerer for the price of a daemonprince. You also will get an addition psychic ability each turn. I’m not saying Daemon princes are not good, however, it’s like trying to compare a Razorback and a landraider. There is a huge points difference between them.
With respect to wargear, space marines can kit their army out in all manner of ways enabling them far greater versatility than CSM. If I could only have..... it would make my army so much better. Pretty much every codex has standouts but to deny that having multiple options and a wider variety of wargear dosnt give you an advantage? I’m pretty certain that almost everyone would recognize that to be false.
I’m also glad your happy with your marine list. I’m happy to finally have a codex (DG) and that the CSM codex dosnt suck royally any more.
Right, and let's translate the berserkers/noise marine thing. That's basically telling Chaos players "you have to play World Eaters or you have to play Emperor's Children". So let's employ that against SM -- alright, you have to play Ultramarines! So many double standards in this thread.
Nothing prevents you from including different detachments of chaos to get the best of both worlds. Guilliman only buffs Ultras for reroll hits and wounds - it's not even close to the same scenerio. Does anything prevent you from casting power on a beserker squad from another detachment that has a psyker in it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/17 19:56:49
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/11/17 19:57:09
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
A storm raven remains a transport and a gunboat. One does not mutually exclude the other, and having the ability to do both is incredible. My original statement stands. Breng77 was just selectively ignoring that fact.
Berserkers can be troops in attachments without any psykers. Noise marines can be troops in any detatchment without berserkers. They are both good but they also retain limitations.
You can get a lord with a power sword and a sorcerer for the price of a daemonprince. You also will get an addition psychic ability each turn. I’m not saying Daemon princes are not good, however, it’s like trying to compare a Razorback and a landraider. There is a huge points difference between them.
With respect to wargear, space marines can kit their army out in all manner of ways enabling them far greater versatility than CSM. If I could only have..... it would make my army so much better. Pretty much every codex has standouts but to deny that having multiple options and a wider variety of wargear dosnt give you an advantage? I’m pretty certain that almost everyone would recognize that to be false.
I’m also glad your happy with your marine list. I’m happy to finally have a codex (DG) and that the CSM codex dosnt suck royally any more.
One does not mutually exclude the other, however, when deciding to take a Raven the consideration isn't "I need to get these 10 marines across the table" it is "look at all these guns" the transport capacity is a nice bonus, but the raven would be taken frequently without said transport capacity. Just look at early edition spam lists, basically nothing in the ravens.
I'm pretty sure Noise Marines can be troops in a detachment with berserkers, just not with troop berserkers, unless I missed where EC cannot take berserkers as elites. IN reality though if optimizing you are likely taking Cultists as troops, filling the whole troop slot for 120 points, then just taking them as elite choices, since most go in alpha legion detachments to my knowledge.
Again having more options is only an advantage if those options are actually equally good. Take Grav, with the exception of perhaps the grav cannon it is crap this edition and everyone takes plasma, having the option for my Tactical squad to have a grav gun is not really an advantage if the optimal choice is one you also have. Let me put it this way.
Two identical units exist with the only difference between them is their options
Unit 1 - Can take a lascannon for 25 points, and a heavy bolter for 10
Unit 2 can take a lascannon for 25 points, a heavy bolter for 100, an auto cannon for 500 and an assault cannon for 600.
By your reasoning Unit 2 has an advantage because it has more options.
Or say unit 2 could instead take for free (so points are no issue) a bolter, lasgun, bolt pistol or las pistol.
Still more options, is it a better unit than Unit 1 because it has 4 options instead of 2?
The same is true for units, if your best option is better than all my options it does not matter how many options I have it does not give me an advantage. I'm not saying this is definitely the case for all marine options vs CSM, simply that the argument that more options is always an advantage is not true.
2017/11/17 19:58:52
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Seriously, a few of you SM players have argued vociferously that you need x,y and z from so and so’s codex. Yet you win lots of games with what your codex already has.
Two questions.
1. How many games do you loose with your army?
2. Do you consider a codex good only when you win almost every game, 75% of games, 50% of games.
@Brenn77 you missed something. All EC must be slannesh. All WE must be Khorne.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/17 20:02:44
Pestilence Provides.
2017/11/17 19:59:34
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
sennacherib wrote: That looks like a fun list. One without the use of a crutch.
Jobs a good un.
Btw. He’ll blasters are a nice option unavailable to CSM. As is pretty much everything in your army baring the commanders.
Indeed it is, but most are also units with very few options, so by your reasoning should be at a disadvantage to units with more options. If I were using things that were available to CSM I would be better served using the CSM dex because it is better. Helblasters would be 100% better in the CSM book.
2017/11/17 20:00:06
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
@ Brenn77. Your list looks pretty nasty. Baring games where you faced Maelific lord spam, or twin primarch spam, how many games have you lost to Chaos players.
It's pretty much the same list I bring except I put guilliman in mine. So mine does about 50% more damage.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/11/17 20:02:31
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
@ Brenn77. Your list looks pretty nasty. Baring games where you faced Maelific lord spam, or twin primarch spam, how many games have you lost to Chaos players.
CSM are a tough matchup, more the Lord Spam than Twin Primarch as if I get turn 1 I have a shot at putting a hurting on at least 1 Primarch. Against Lord Spam I try to utilize my 24" range, and mobility to minimize early smite damage, but it usually doesn't end too well as you really only have so much room to move, and lords can run and smite. I'm really of the opinion that any model under say 60 points should not have full smite, but that is just a personal opinion.
A storm raven remains a transport and a gunboat. One does not mutually exclude the other, and having the ability to do both is incredible. My original statement stands. Breng77 was just selectively ignoring that fact.
Berserkers can be troops in attachments without any psykers. Noise marines can be troops in any detatchment without berserkers. They are both good but they also retain limitations.
You can get a lord with a power sword and a sorcerer for the price of a daemonprince. You also will get an addition psychic ability each turn. I’m not saying Daemon princes are not good, however, it’s like trying to compare a Razorback and a landraider. There is a huge points difference between them.
With respect to wargear, space marines can kit their army out in all manner of ways enabling them far greater versatility than CSM. If I could only have..... it would make my army so much better. Pretty much every codex has standouts but to deny that having multiple options and a wider variety of wargear dosnt give you an advantage? I’m pretty certain that almost everyone would recognize that to be false.
I’m also glad your happy with your marine list. I’m happy to finally have a codex (DG) and that the CSM codex dosnt suck royally any more.
Right, and let's translate the berserkers/noise marine thing. That's basically telling Chaos players "you have to play World Eaters or you have to play Emperor's Children". So let's employ that against SM -- alright, you have to play Ultramarines! So many double standards in this thread.
No you don't have to but you can, there is really no reason you need those units to be troops to win games with them, they are killer units. I would advise taking Alpha legion and just taking cultists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/17 20:04:25
2017/11/17 20:10:15
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
@ Brenn77. Your list looks pretty nasty. Baring games where you faced Maelific lord spam, or twin primarch spam, how many games have you lost to Chaos players.
CSM are a tough matchup, more the Lord Spam than Twin Primarch as if I get turn 1 I have a shot at putting a hurting on at least 1 Primarch. Against Lord Spam I try to utilize my 24" range, and mobility to minimize early smite damage, but it usually doesn't end too well as you really only have so much room to move, and lords can run and smite. I'm really of the opinion that any model under say 60 points should not have full smite, but that is just a personal opinion.
A storm raven remains a transport and a gunboat. One does not mutually exclude the other, and having the ability to do both is incredible. My original statement stands. Breng77 was just selectively ignoring that fact.
Berserkers can be troops in attachments without any psykers. Noise marines can be troops in any detatchment without berserkers. They are both good but they also retain limitations.
You can get a lord with a power sword and a sorcerer for the price of a daemonprince. You also will get an addition psychic ability each turn. I’m not saying Daemon princes are not good, however, it’s like trying to compare a Razorback and a landraider. There is a huge points difference between them.
With respect to wargear, space marines can kit their army out in all manner of ways enabling them far greater versatility than CSM. If I could only have..... it would make my army so much better. Pretty much every codex has standouts but to deny that having multiple options and a wider variety of wargear dosnt give you an advantage? I’m pretty certain that almost everyone would recognize that to be false.
I’m also glad your happy with your marine list. I’m happy to finally have a codex (DG) and that the CSM codex dosnt suck royally any more.
Right, and let's translate the berserkers/noise marine thing. That's basically telling Chaos players "you have to play World Eaters or you have to play Emperor's Children". So let's employ that against SM -- alright, you have to play Ultramarines! So many double standards in this thread.
No you don't have to but you can, there is really no reason you need those units to be troops to win games with them, they are killer units. I would advise taking Alpha legion and just taking cultists.
Do you mind answering my question. Beyond those two list archetypes, malific lord spam and primarch spam, what percentage of games do you win/loose vs chaos.
Also... “Unit 1 - Can take a lascannon for 25 points, and a heavy bolter for 10
Unit 2 can take a lascannon for 25 points, a heavy bolter for 100, an auto cannon for 500 and an assault cannon for 600. “.... this is such a flAwed argument that it’s not even worth responding but I will.
The options you have that we share have the same price rendering them equal on a point for point basis. I have no access to options like assault cannons, storm shields, infiltrate, etc. you simply have more of everything both unit entry wise and options per entry wise.
I realize that you aren’t playing codex soup, however until they make it so codex SM isn’t allowed to field wolfen, sisters of scilence and assassins my argument stands. You have more in codex and in detatchment options both from a unit entry perspective and a wargear special rule perspective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/17 20:11:38
Pestilence Provides.
2017/11/17 20:10:41
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
"Proof that space marine codex is the worst"...out of 6 codices released so far. You forgot that last part...There is entirely too much hyperbole these days.
Seriously, a few of you SM players have argued vociferously that you need x,y and z from so and so’s codex. Yet you win lots of games with what your codex already has.
Two questions.
1. How many games do you loose with your army?
2. Do you consider a codex good only when you win almost every game, 75% of games, 50% of games.
@Brenn77 you missed something. All EC must be slannesh. All WE must be Khorne.
Yeah, I very much suspect this^^ is what's going on.
Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love
2017/11/17 20:16:04
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Seriously, a few of you SM players have argued vociferously that you need x,y and z from so and so’s codex. Yet you win lots of games with what your codex already has.
Two questions.
1. How many games do you loose with your army?
2. Do you consider a codex good only when you win almost every game, 75% of games, 50% of games.
@Brenn77 you missed something. All EC must be slannesh. All WE must be Khorne.
Where does it say that in the rules? I'm looking at the legion traits and see no such thing. I know that is the fluff behind those Legions, but I'm trying to see where that exists in the rules
2017/11/17 20:18:44
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
@ Brenn77. Your list looks pretty nasty. Baring games where you faced Maelific lord spam, or twin primarch spam, how many games have you lost to Chaos players.
CSM are a tough matchup, more the Lord Spam than Twin Primarch as if I get turn 1 I have a shot at putting a hurting on at least 1 Primarch. Against Lord Spam I try to utilize my 24" range, and mobility to minimize early smite damage, but it usually doesn't end too well as you really only have so much room to move, and lords can run and smite. I'm really of the opinion that any model under say 60 points should not have full smite, but that is just a personal opinion.
A storm raven remains a transport and a gunboat. One does not mutually exclude the other, and having the ability to do both is incredible. My original statement stands. Breng77 was just selectively ignoring that fact.
Berserkers can be troops in attachments without any psykers. Noise marines can be troops in any detatchment without berserkers. They are both good but they also retain limitations.
You can get a lord with a power sword and a sorcerer for the price of a daemonprince. You also will get an addition psychic ability each turn. I’m not saying Daemon princes are not good, however, it’s like trying to compare a Razorback and a landraider. There is a huge points difference between them.
With respect to wargear, space marines can kit their army out in all manner of ways enabling them far greater versatility than CSM. If I could only have..... it would make my army so much better. Pretty much every codex has standouts but to deny that having multiple options and a wider variety of wargear dosnt give you an advantage? I’m pretty certain that almost everyone would recognize that to be false.
I’m also glad your happy with your marine list. I’m happy to finally have a codex (DG) and that the CSM codex dosnt suck royally any more.
Right, and let's translate the berserkers/noise marine thing. That's basically telling Chaos players "you have to play World Eaters or you have to play Emperor's Children". So let's employ that against SM -- alright, you have to play Ultramarines! So many double standards in this thread.
No you don't have to but you can, there is really no reason you need those units to be troops to win games with them, they are killer units. I would advise taking Alpha legion and just taking cultists.
Do you mind answering my question. Beyond those two list archetypes, malific lord spam and primarch spam, what percentage of games do you win/loose vs chaos.
Also... “Unit 1 - Can take a lascannon for 25 points, and a heavy bolter for 10
Unit 2 can take a lascannon for 25 points, a heavy bolter for 100, an auto cannon for 500 and an assault cannon for 600. “.... this is such a flAwed argument that it’s not even worth responding but I will.
The options you have that we share have the same price rendering them equal on a point for point basis. I have no access to options like assault cannons, storm shields, infiltrate, etc. you simply have more of everything both unit entry wise and options per entry wise.
I realize that you aren’t playing codex soup, however until they make it so codex SM isn’t allowed to field wolfen, sisters of scilence and assassins my argument stands. You have more in codex and in detatchment options both from a unit entry perspective and a wargear special rule perspective.
Against those 2 list achetypes I would say I lose ~75% of my games, more against well piloted versions of said lists. Closer to 80% against lord spam. Against CSM other than those 2 it depends, because I don't put a lot of stock in my overall record. At tournaments I only really run into the above archetypes, outside of tournaments my meta isn't super competitive, and has few CSM players, but I would say slightly better than 50-50, but I have way more experience than most of my opponents.
I agree about, soup though to be fair CSM have a lot of soup options as well (if you include FWCSM have most of the really good soup options that Marines have). I mean by your argument, You have options for Daemons that I don't have which at this point provide you with a much better screen, and other powerful units. But sure if we are looking beyond just codex, then sure I have the "option" of playing guard instead of marines so my codex is better? If we are just looking in codex I still posit that CSM has as many or more good options as codex marines, to the point where the variety of sub optimal options ceases to be of any value as an advantage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 1.) I don't track my record, but I'm about 50-50 overall, but worse against top competitive builds, or high end events.
2.)I don't think the marine codex is bad. I consider a codex good when I don't enter a game at a disadvantage simply due to codex selection. In addition when said codex creates close fun games on a regular basis. Again I put no stock on my win rate with said book as long as the game is close. For instance when I played Daemons in 6th, I though it was a terrible codex even though I won 65-70% of my games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/17 20:31:14
2017/11/17 20:57:18
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Thank you for your honesty.
So you know your codex is getting a lot of across the board price drops according to rumor when chapter approved comes out.
Also, a 50/50 to slightly better than 50/50 win ratio indicAtes to me that your codex sits right where it should at this moment in the power curve of things.
Can you explain to me this. Why do you want more effective rules if your already doing pretty well? Playing an OP book sucks, like when you know your only winning because of the codex. I know I lost at the top table vs eldar during 6th playing CSM. He had something like 6 wave serpents, 2 wraith knights and a bunch of those D Scythes. I had a mix of Nurgle daemons And Nurgle CSM. Hardly an OP list. I got there to that table via my skill. When he crushed me in round 3 we shook hands and he freely admitted he hadn’t gotten to that table on the merits of his gamesmanship. He played a broken, OP list.
Is that really what SM players all want. Broken OP lists. A larger win button. If space marine players already are doing well why do we have 40 page threads filled with rants that sound more than a bit entitled about wanting better rules and wanting the shiny toys that others have.
Pestilence Provides.
2017/11/17 21:00:37
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Xenomancers wrote: Land speeder storms are a huge diapointment. I have 6 of them so needless to say I was basically always bringing at least 3 every game as marines in 7th. They used to be 40 points - could jink - had a large blast weapon that blinded - it was a super efficient little beast. Now it's one of the worst units in the codex.
This is your problem - you can only see the bad for your codex and what is good in others.
Enlighten me.
Easy, go back and review the thread. It's mostly one big case of "The grass is always greener on the other side."
I mean if you wanna defend LS Storms go right on ahead. I wanna see how you do that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/11/17 21:11:17
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Martel732 wrote: I guess we'll know which way the wind is blowing on this when the DA/BA books come out. The BA need a LOT of revamping to even beat other index lists.
It's going to come down to your chapter tactic. I don't expect many things to drop in points except for your characters. Stratagems you can expect the same regurgitated GAK that the GK got. Probably a stratagem to help you DC and or honor guards.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/11/17 21:12:01
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
sennacherib wrote: Thank you for your honesty.
So you know your codex is getting a lot of across the board price drops according to rumor when chapter approved comes out.
Also, a 50/50 to slightly better than 50/50 win ratio indicAtes to me that your codex sits right where it should at this moment in the power curve of things.
Can you explain to me this. Why do you want more effective rules if your already doing pretty well? Playing an OP book sucks, like when you know your only winning because of the codex. I know I lost at the top table vs eldar during 6th playing CSM. He had something like 6 wave serpents, 2 wraith knights and a bunch of those D Scythes. I had a mix of Nurgle daemons And Nurgle CSM. Hardly an OP list. I got there to that table via my skill. When he crushed me in round 3 we shook hands and he freely admitted he hadn’t gotten to that table on the merits of his gamesmanship. He played a broken, OP list.
Is that really what SM players all want. Broken OP lists. A larger win button. If space marine players already are doing well why do we have 40 page threads filled with rants that sound more than a bit entitled about wanting better rules and wanting the shiny toys that others have.
I'll be happy if those points changes are true, I'm not sold that they are yet.
I don't really want a huge change to the marine book, but again my 50-50 win loss rate is misleading because I face a range of skill level. So if my W/L against competitive lists is 30-70, but I win 70-30 against easier match-up I'm not sure that is a great place. (I'm just pulling those numbers out of my head I don't track my record all that closely, but based on when in tournaments my wins happen and the skill level of my local meta it seems to likely be true). Personally what I want is for all books to have all choices viable, marines are pretty far from that, hence why I balk at the "you have so many options" line of thinking. If you don't want to soup, and you want to be competitive you really don't have a lot of options. I own a ton of bikers, and termies both are pretty bad. Rhinos in this edition for marines are also pretty sorry. I will still maintain that CSM have more potentially viable options than Marines do at this time (outside of soup, because then you are not playing either marines or CSM).
My personal wish for marines would be for all units to head the way of Primaris units as those units play pretty well (especially if points adjustments are true) and feel like I think marines should feel on the table (pretty durable, pretty good in combat, mobile, decently shooty). Standard Marines (Tacticals, Assault Marines, Veteran Squads) generally feel either too fragile for their points, or like they do very little as what should be one of the elite (model count wise not necessarily winning wise) factions in the game.
2017/11/17 21:12:23
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Xenomancers wrote: Land speeder storms are a huge diapointment. I have 6 of them so needless to say I was basically always bringing at least 3 every game as marines in 7th. They used to be 40 points - could jink - had a large blast weapon that blinded - it was a super efficient little beast. Now it's one of the worst units in the codex.
This is your problem - you can only see the bad for your codex and what is good in others.
Enlighten me.
Easy, go back and review the thread. It's mostly one big case of "The grass is always greener on the other side."
I mean if you wanna defend LS Storms go right on ahead. I wanna see how you do that.
If your win rate was 50-50, but that was 80-20 against newer, less competitive, fluff players, and 20-80 against top tournament players, would you still think the book was in the right place?
2017/11/17 21:15:29
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
sennacherib wrote: Thank you for your honesty.
So you know your codex is getting a lot of across the board price drops according to rumor when chapter approved comes out.
Also, a 50/50 to slightly better than 50/50 win ratio indicAtes to me that your codex sits right where it should at this moment in the power curve of things.
Can you explain to me this. Why do you want more effective rules if your already doing pretty well? Playing an OP book sucks, like when you know your only winning because of the codex. I know I lost at the top table vs eldar during 6th playing CSM. He had something like 6 wave serpents, 2 wraith knights and a bunch of those D Scythes. I had a mix of Nurgle daemons And Nurgle CSM. Hardly an OP list. I got there to that table via my skill. When he crushed me in round 3 we shook hands and he freely admitted he hadn’t gotten to that table on the merits of his gamesmanship. He played a broken, OP list.
Is that really what SM players all want. Broken OP lists. A larger win button. If space marine players already are doing well why do we have 40 page threads filled with rants that sound more than a bit entitled about wanting better rules and wanting the shiny toys that others have.
Why would Tyranid players complain about their 6th edition codex? After all they had a good win rate. They're just a bunch of complainers too!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/11/17 21:16:31
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Martel732 wrote: Baal preds and furiosos and sgs better drop or the whole book will be useless.
dreads are useless in SM and GK - stands to reason they will also be useless. SG I really hope get buffed because I love seeing them on the table. This is just a prediction though - DA will get the better book.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/11/17 21:34:46
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
If your win rate was 50-50, but that was 80-20 against newer, less competitive, fluff players, and 20-80 against top tournament players, would you still think the book was in the right place?
So, to respond to your question in kind. I would fully agree with the above statement. The book is in the right place. 50% win loss is spot on. I have not won anything as big as LVO but I’ve won quite a few mid to small size tournaments. I’m a pretty skilled player so given that I rarely rely on spam to win, 50% seems about right.
To your previous post.
Our codex is full of lame units. Does anyone ever seriously play lucious the eternal, possessed, mutilators (what a laugh. An assault unit with a 4”move, ROFL), we also have rhino, terminator, bikes and are forgefiend, mauler fiends and defilers any good? Defilers certainly are mediocre at best.
Currently our options are more or less the same as yours but more limited. We have berserkers, daemonprince, noise marines, cultists and obliterators if you only want to look at what’s good. The rest is the same or worse than what you have.
Your codex has some really good options too. Stormravens, the row boat, hellblasters em pretty good? I don’t own the codex but it seems like you have a lot more options that are midddle of the road than we do. And quite a few more that while not incredible, are still better than anything we have outside of the 5 outstanding sentries posted above. Wouldn’t you agree? That’s why the volume of choices matter. Last codex all we had were cultists and helldrake. Every unit option in your codex was really strong in 7th.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/17 21:37:35
Pestilence Provides.
2017/11/17 21:36:29
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
These numbers would suggest that SM are average and that’s CSM are somewhat better than average but with a greater degree of variance than SM alone. Generally supporting what I have been saying that SM are sort of middle of the road generic jack of all trades. Solid at many things but great at no one aspect of combat. While this does not support the fluff (we have already discussed at length that fluff is not well represented by the rules) it makes for a great beginnner army. Easy to pick up. Easy to paint and with lots f options for the new collector.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/17 22:05:15
Pestilence Provides.
2017/11/19 19:35:17
Subject: Re:Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
Just went to a 90 man event, in the uk, won best adeptus astartes player as 41st place! admittedly many of the lists further up contained some marine elements. but its deff not looking good for purists.
2017/11/19 21:01:31
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
secretForge wrote: Just went to a 90 man event, in the uk, won best adeptus astartes player as 41st place! admittedly many of the lists further up contained some marine elements. but its deff not looking good for purists.
for full disclosure - second place at this event was space marines and assassins... so you know. clearly not that bad when you know what your doing.
2017/11/19 23:22:51
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
These numbers would suggest that SM are average and that’s CSM are somewhat better than average but with a greater degree of variance than SM alone. Generally supporting what I have been saying that SM are sort of middle of the road generic jack of all trades. Solid at many things but great at no one aspect of combat. While this does not support the fluff (we have already discussed at length that fluff is not well represented by the rules) it makes for a great beginnner army. Easy to pick up. Easy to paint and with lots f options for the new collector.
So the part where they are the lowest preforming codex makes them average? Many index are outperforming them.
Also - when you look at data like this. To determine army power. You don't look at the low. Only peak performance.
secretForge wrote: Just went to a 90 man event, in the uk, won best adeptus astartes player as 41st place! admittedly many of the lists further up contained some marine elements. but its deff not looking good for purists.
for full disclosure - second place at this event was space marines and assassins... so you know. clearly not that bad when you know what your doing.
guilliman and some assassins and forge world character dreads? Please...spare us calling this a space marine army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/19 23:25:48
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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2017/11/19 23:33:36
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
The Core of the army (Assault terminators, guilliman, tiggy and apth) was marines plus two chaplain dreads. so yeah.. space marines.. about 500 points was assassins
Its ultra high competitive stuff.. they guy nailed the meta and countered it with the Space Marine Codex. Some times the answer is just a little outside the box.
2017/11/19 23:40:02
Subject: Proof that space marine codex is the worst.
guilliman and some assassins and forge world character dreads? Please...spare us calling this a space marine army.
Aside from some Assassins...what about it isn't a Space Marine army...?
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