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The Flakk Missile stratagem reads:
"You may only make a single hit roll with the weapon this phase, however, add 1 to the hit roll and, if it hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds'.

However, does the hit still (also) go off normally? There's nothing in the FAQ that I can find, and the text doesn't REPLACE the original missile shot, it just adds an effect that happens on a hit. As far as I can tell, that means that you still get to roll To Wound and put damage from the missile on the target. Is that correct?
If not, Flakk Missile really doesn't seem like a very useful strategem, since it only offers half the maximum damage as a regular Missile.

EDIT: I feel like this is intended, because in other instances where the original shot is replaced (The Linebreaker Bombardment, for example) it makes sure to explicitly clarify that you don't fire the actual shot.

I would have to say there is simply not enough information and it's unclear. It could be argued either way.

You only need to hit.

I feel that if the normal missile damage was to be done as well, it would read "D3 mortal wounds in addition to any other effects from the attack". I believe the rule as written is make a single roll to hit (at +1 to hit), then the target suffers D3 mortal wounds. The D3 instead of D6 wounds I imagine is offset by the fact that you don't have to roll to wound, and they're mortal wounds instead of normal ones.

RAW, the target also gets hit by the normal attack as well. So you'll roll to wound for the missile launcher on top of the automatic D3 mortal wounds.

You really can't argue against this from a RAW perspective. It may or may not be intended for you to also get hit, but that's irrelevant till it gets FAQ'd.

 Grey Templar wrote:
RAW, the target also gets hit by the normal attack as well.

If it's RAW (i.e., rules as written) please show us where its you know, written.

Yeah, I'm gonna say No on this one. RaW is clear as pig slurry. There simply isn't enough information given in the stratagem to work it out.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
RAW, the target also gets hit by the normal attack as well.

If it's RAW (i.e., rules as written) please show us where its you know, written.

You are still attacking with the weapon. When you attack with a weapon, you go through the normal attack process unless told otherwise. Nothing in this strategem explicitly overrides any of that. Hence, by the nature of this being a permissive Ruleset, you will still roll to wound with the strength of the weapon vs the toughness of the target. The Strategem only adds "If you hit, X happens". Unless it says "X happens instead of rolling to wound normally" then you still roll to wound as normal. The rules for this strategem doesn't say it replaces the normal Hit>Wound>Save process, therefore that process is still very much intact.

So you have nothing written that says the damage in the rule is in addition and doesn't replace it. Therefore you do not have RAW.

 Ghaz wrote:
So you have nothing written that says the damage in the rule is in addition and doesn't replace it. Therefore you do not have RAW.

The basic way you resolve attacks is written proof of this. The strategem itself doesn't explicitly override and replace the normal Hit>Wound>Save order, therefore it is still in effect. It's absolutely RAW. That is the proof. Unless you are explicitly told NOT to follow the normal attack procedure, then you still follow it. This Strategem doesn't explicitly override it, therefore it still causes a normal hit with the weapon.

And again, you have nothing written to back up your claims. Your arguments do not qualify as RAW.

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, you have nothing written to back up your claims. Your arguments do not qualify as RAW.

You're deflecting. I do have written stuff to back up my claims. The text of the basic Ranged attack rules and this Strategem support this. You're ignoring it.

I would say with the phrase "you only make a single hit roll with the weapon this phase" and "Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made." from the 3. Choose Ranged Weapon - Number of Attacks you only attack with the Flakk missile. The benefit is the +1 BS (so against most targets e.g. Flyers with Supersonic you will shoot with the normal BS) and the guaranteed mortal wound(s) if you hit without the need of a To Wound roll.

Had to look up the actual strategem, but since youre not replacing the frag/krak missile, it only specifies you only get one to hit roll, then yea. You could frag em if you really wanted to and still get a mortal wound.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You are still attacking with the weapon. When you attack with a weapon, you go through the normal attack process unless told otherwise. Nothing in this strategem explicitly overrides any of that. Hence, by the nature of this being a permissive Ruleset, you will still roll to wound with the strength of the weapon vs the toughness of the target. The Strategem only adds "If you hit, X happens". Unless it says "X happens instead of rolling to wound normally" then you still roll to wound as normal. The rules for this strategem doesn't say it replaces the normal Hit>Wound>Save process, therefore that process is still very much intact.

So your argument is that the strategem, being an optional move for the missile launcher armed model to make, happens in addition to the standard shooting attack being made? This would indeed support the ruling of "it only makes one roll to hit" to prevent someone using a "frag" profile to do D6 shots for D3 mortal wounds per hit. I honestly can see both sides of the argument here, I think this is something to be covered in a future FAQ. Because you're right, nothing contradicts the normal shooting rules. Plenty of weapons do mortal wounds in addition to their normal shooting attacks as is, so why should this be any different?

Waaaghpower wrote:

If not, Flakk Missile really doesn't seem like a very useful strategem, since it only offers half the maximum damage as a regular Missile.

You get BS+1 and you inflict D3 mortal wounds on a flying unit for 1CP. Not everything which can fly is hard to hit. No armor sv, no invuln sv against it. Where is that not very useful ?

p5freak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

If not, Flakk Missile really doesn't seem like a very useful strategem, since it only offers half the maximum damage as a regular Missile.

You get BS+1 and you inflict D3 mortal wounds on a flying unit for 1CP. Not everything which can fly is hard to hit. No armor sv, no invuln sv against it. Where is that not very useful ?

Well, let's compare damage with D3 Mortal Wounds versus just hitting with the missile normally - My point is that the d3 Mortal Wounds is lackluster, not the +1, which is... Okay.
The D3 Mortal Wounds will get, on average, 2 wounds against any target.
The normal shot will get:
2 wounds against anything with a 4+ save.
1.5 wounds against a 3+ save, anything with a 5+ Invuln.
1.2 wounds against a 4+ invuln or 2+ save.


So you're getting a marginal bump, but nothing massive. Now consider a few other things of note:
The only reason to take a Missile Launcher instead of a Lascannon is to get access to the Flakk Missile stratagem - The Frag Missile is too weak to provide any utility worth noting, (Granting a meager half wound more damage against Conscripts as compared to a Krak Missile,) and the Lascannon is otherwise simply superior.
The Command Point spent could instead be used re-rolling a '1' on a d6 roll for damage, which causes more bonus damage than the Flak Missile does.

...

Ultimately, I agree with Grey Templar. By the nature of how 40k rules are written, if something isn't mentioned as not following standard procedure, it follows standard procedure. When you use a strategem to cause mortal wounds, that strategem doesn't have to specify 'Wounds inflicted by this ability effect Morale', because that is implicit. If something is intended to be done out of order, that will be specifically listed.

Consider that the Daemon Shell Strategem has the same wording - "You can only make a single hit roll". This text is certainly included to prevent players from making multiple attacks that could all inflict Mortal Wounds (Either by firing a Frag Missile, or getting into Rapid Fire range with a Combi Bolter.)

From the core rules:

Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound

You roll to hit and apply damage. Mortal Wounds don't need to roll To-Wound, unless otherwise specified.
You don't shoot normally.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
From the core rules:

Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound

You roll to hit and apply damage. Mortal Wounds don't need to roll To-Wound, unless otherwise specified.
You don't shoot normally.

The argument is to know if the mortal wounds replace the normal hit, or are done in addition to the normal hit. Since most rules that act the same way explicitly say how to treat the normal hit, this stratagem is very confusing.
It really feels like they forgot to add the information, but I have no idea which one they intended.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Well, let's compare damage with D3 Mortal Wounds versus just hitting with the missile normally - My point is that the d3 Mortal Wounds is lackluster, not the +1, which is... Okay.

It depends a lot what you are shooting at. If its a unit with FLY that has T8, or even higher, and not hard to hit, and an invuln sv, this stratagem is very strong. Its no so good against anything that has T7 or less and no invuln sv. That CP would be better spend for rerolling the D6 damage of a lascannon.

Btw. the hellfire shells stratagem is worded the same. I like this one better because it allows a heavy bolter to deal mortal wounds on high toughness units easily. No +1 BS, though.

fresus wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
From the core rules:

Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound

You roll to hit and apply damage. Mortal Wounds don't need to roll To-Wound, unless otherwise specified.
You don't shoot normally.

The argument is to know if the mortal wounds replace the normal hit, or are done in addition to the normal hit. Since most rules that act the same way explicitly say how to treat the normal hit, this stratagem is very confusing.
It really feels like they forgot to add the information, but I have no idea which one they intended.

Only the mortal wounds.

Missile launchers have 2 profiles to choose from when fired. Frag makes d6 attacks and krak makes a single attack.

Flakk replaces the attacks from the profile with a single attack that has a direct success = effect. Flakk states you only make 1 hit roll this phase, and this is the result of that attack.

If you are making either regular profile attack as well as the success = effect attack then you are making more than the 1 hit roll this phase specified.

That is also the critical point of the rule: you attac no with the weapon, use the strategem, then may only make a single hit roll that phase with that weapon that has a specific effect on a hit; you are not attacking with either profile.

Agree that the Stratagem effect replaces the shot, it isn't in addition to it.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

That is also the critical point of the rule: you attac no with the weapon, use the strategem, then may only make a single hit roll that phase with that weapon that has a specific effect on a hit; you are not attacking with either profile.

Before I saw this thread existed, I would have agreed with you. So I decided to read through the rules step by step. I'm not so sure now.

Here's what I read:

- Choose Unit to Shoot With
Okay, squad with missile launcher.

- Choose Targets
That flying unit right there.

- Choose Ranged Weapon
Missile launcher
(section granting number of attacks)

- ACTIVATE STRATAGEM -
You only make a single hit roll we the weapon this phase, so our number of attacks is now 1 regardless of what it was before.
Add 1 to the hit roll and if it hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds

- Resolve attacks
1. Hit roll
Roll a die, was it a 2+ (assuming there were no other modifiers)? If it was, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds

2. Wound roll
Full stop. Now, here, your way causes the game to break. You're never given permission to roll a hit roll outside of resolving attacks, at least, that I'm aware of. You're not ever given permission to ignore any situation where you wound. How do you ignore the rest of the resolve attacks section? There's just no framework for it working the way you describe. I mean, if the rule read something like "Instead of attacking, roll a 2+" or whatever, I'd agree. It just sounds like this is an added effect on the weapon.

No.

The Stratagem tells you to only make a single Hit roll for this weapon for this phase.
Mortal Wounds don't roll To-Wound.
After you hit, you immediately skip to allocating the Mortal Wounds. The attack is resolved after that.
You don't get a second To-Hit roll for the normal missile and you don't get to make a To-Wound roll, because Mortal Wounds skip the whole process right to the end.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
No.

The Stratagem tells you to only make a single Hit roll for this weapon for this phase.

Right

Mortal Wounds don't roll To-Wound.

I mean... yeah. Technically, no wounds roll to wound though. You've already rolled to wound to generate wounds.

After you hit, you immediately skip to allocating the Mortal Wounds. The attack is resolved after that.

Sure, for the mortal wounds. Nothing says to ignore the rest of the weapon's profile. It says to make a single attack with the weapon, add 1 to the BS, and if it hits the target suffers D3 mortal wounds.

You don't get a second To-Hit roll for the normal missile and you don't get to make a To-Wound roll, because Mortal Wounds skip the whole process right to the end.

Literally no one is suggesting a second to-hit roll that I've seen so far.

 Grey Templar wrote:
RAW, the target also gets hit by the normal attack as well. So you'll roll to wound for the missile launcher on top of the automatic D3 mortal wounds.

You really can't argue against this from a RAW perspective. It may or may not be intended for you to also get hit, but that's irrelevant till it gets FAQ'd.

Actually yes, you can argue against this from a RAW perspective. The rules for flakk missiles tell you the results if you hit - d3 automatic mortal wounds. Raishase has it correct in that it would say "an additional D3 mortal wounds" or "D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound inflicted" if the normal damage were to be done in addition to the normal wounds. Since the only thing stated for if you it is inflicting d3 mortal wounds, by RAW all you inflict as a result of the hit is d3 mortal wounds.

 doctortom wrote:
Actually yes, you can argue against this from a RAW perspective. The rules for flakk missiles tell you the results if you hit - d3 automatic mortal wounds. Raishase has it correct in that it would say "an additional D3 mortal wounds" or "D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound inflicted" if the normal damage were to be done in addition to the normal wounds. Since the only thing stated for if you it is inflicting d3 mortal wounds, by RAW all you inflict as a result of the hit is d3 mortal wounds.

Only time I've ever seen that done is on a to-wound roll, which would be necessary to differentiate it from the normal damage, otherwise you'd be running into a situation where you're asking "Does that 6 to wound turn my one damage into the one mortal, or is it an extra mortal?" It's to show that one doesn't replace the other because they both directly overlap.

I could accept this if there's an example of the same language used on a to-hit, or some other not wounding example. I actually looked for those examples first, and all I could find them on were to-wound rolls.

Waaaghpower wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

If not, Flakk Missile really doesn't seem like a very useful strategem, since it only offers half the maximum damage as a regular Missile.

You get BS+1 and you inflict D3 mortal wounds on a flying unit for 1CP. Not everything which can fly is hard to hit. No armor sv, no invuln sv against it. Where is that not very useful ?

Well, let's compare damage with D3 Mortal Wounds versus just hitting with the missile normally - My point is that the d3 Mortal Wounds is lackluster, not the +1, which is... Okay.
The D3 Mortal Wounds will get, on average, 2 wounds against any target.
The normal shot will get:
2 wounds against anything with a 4+ save.
1.5 wounds against a 3+ save, anything with a 5+ Invuln.
1.2 wounds against a 4+ invuln or 2+ save.


So you're getting a marginal bump, but nothing massive.

Your analysis completely overlooks the fact that mortal wounds carry over whereas normal wounds do not, so that if you do multiple mortal wounds and the first wound takes out the initial model, the extra mortal wounds spill over onto the rest of the unit. No matter how many or how few wounds the model has in your analysis, the normal shot would never take out anything more than the one model.

 daedalus wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
No.

The Stratagem tells you to only make a single Hit roll for this weapon for this phase.

Right

Mortal Wounds don't roll To-Wound.

I mean... yeah. Technically, no wounds roll to wound though. You've already rolled to wound to generate wounds.

After you hit, you immediately skip to allocating the Mortal Wounds. The attack is resolved after that.

Sure, for the mortal wounds. Nothing says to ignore the rest of the weapon's profile. It says to make a single attack with the weapon, add 1 to the BS, and if it hits the target suffers D3 mortal wounds.

You don't get a second To-Hit roll for the normal missile and you don't get to make a To-Wound roll, because Mortal Wounds skip the whole process right to the end.

Literally no one is suggesting a second to-hit roll that I've seen so far.

Let's look at the "Resolve Attacks" portion of the rules. Mortal Wounds tells you to ignore point 2. and 4.
1. Hit Roll
(2. Wound Roll)
3. Allocate Wound
(4. Saving Throw)
5. Inflict Damage

You never get the chance to make a Wound roll.

Is there even an ability that triggers Mortal Wounds on the Hit Roll in addition to the normal damage? I only have seen them trigger additional damage on the Wound roll.

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Actually yes, you can argue against this from a RAW perspective. The rules for flakk missiles tell you the results if you hit - d3 automatic mortal wounds. Raishase has it correct in that it would say "an additional D3 mortal wounds" or "D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound inflicted" if the normal damage were to be done in addition to the normal wounds. Since the only thing stated for if you it is inflicting d3 mortal wounds, by RAW all you inflict as a result of the hit is d3 mortal wounds.

Only time I've ever seen that done is on a to-wound roll, which would be necessary to differentiate it from the normal damage, otherwise you'd be running into a situation where you're asking "Does that 6 to wound turn my one damage into the one mortal, or is it an extra mortal?" It's to show that one doesn't replace the other because they both directly overlap.

I could accept this if there's an example of the same language used on a to-hit, or some other not wounding example. I actually looked for those examples first, and all I could find them on were to-wound rolls.

It doesn't matter what you've seen done, what matters is what you are told happens if you hit. We are told you do D3 mortal wounds. You are not tole you do D3 mortal wounds in additiion to a normal wound of x damage. There are other weapons or other effects that inflict a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, and they specfify that the mortal wound is in addition to the normal damage. If you are only told that you do d3 Mortal wounds, that's all you get to do.