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 doctortom wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Actually yes, you can argue against this from a RAW perspective. The rules for flakk missiles tell you the results if you hit - d3 automatic mortal wounds. Raishase has it correct in that it would say "an additional D3 mortal wounds" or "D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound inflicted" if the normal damage were to be done in addition to the normal wounds. Since the only thing stated for if you it is inflicting d3 mortal wounds, by RAW all you inflict as a result of the hit is d3 mortal wounds.

Only time I've ever seen that done is on a to-wound roll, which would be necessary to differentiate it from the normal damage, otherwise you'd be running into a situation where you're asking "Does that 6 to wound turn my one damage into the one mortal, or is it an extra mortal?" It's to show that one doesn't replace the other because they both directly overlap.

I could accept this if there's an example of the same language used on a to-hit, or some other not wounding example. I actually looked for those examples first, and all I could find them on were to-wound rolls.

It doesn't matter what you've seen done, what matters is what you are told happens if you hit. We are told you do D3 mortal wounds. You are not tole you do D3 mortal wounds in additiion to a normal wound of x damage. There are other weapons or other effects that inflict a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, and they specfify that the mortal wound is in addition to the normal damage. If you are only told that you do d3 Mortal wounds, that's all you get to do.

The issue is that you are also told (by the normal rules) to resolve the weapons profile normally.

So you have 2 permissions:

1) Fire the weapon
2) If you hit, it does mortal wounds.

Those are the permissions the stratagem grants. It provides no more restrictions.

Nothing in there prevents Permission 1) from calling the rest of the shooting process as it naturally would when you fire the weapon.

 daedalus wrote:

Sure, for the mortal wounds. Nothing says to ignore the rest of the weapon's profile. It says to make a single attack with the weapon, add 1 to the BS, and if it hits the target suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Actually, yes there is. When you are told what to do when you hit and all it says is you do d3 mortal wounds, then it is telling you that you ignore the normal profile because it tells you what the wounds/damage are and it does not say inflict d3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage. There is nothing saying that you do the normal damage in addition - your statement even confirms that.

 doctortom wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Sure, for the mortal wounds. Nothing says to ignore the rest of the weapon's profile. It says to make a single attack with the weapon, add 1 to the BS, and if it hits the target suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Actually, yes there is. When you are told what to do when you hit and all it says is you do d3 mortal wounds, then it is telling you that you ignore the normal profile because it tells you what the wounds/damage are and it does not say inflict d3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage. There is nothing saying that you do the normal damage in addition - your statement even confirms that.

The issue is that nothing you actually posted prevents the normal shooting rules from being called. I'll go over your post in detail so you can understand me, since you seem to be missing it:

When you are told what to do when you hit (You are told what to do when you hit, but there is no language of exclusivity; it is possible to be told what to do when you hit in two places and do both at the same time) and all it says is you do d3 mortal wounds, (This is all the Stratagem says you do, but there is no exclusive language; the Stratagem is then resolved after you do your D3 mortal wounds, but it has neither removed nor resolved the initial hit from the attack, and so you have a "hanging attak" that either must progress to the To Wound roll or the game breaks) then it is telling you that you ignore the normal profile (where does it say to ignore the normal profile?) because it tells you what the wounds/damage are (It does tell you, but it does so without any indication that it also overrides the normal shooting process or weapon profile.) and it does not say inflict d3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage. (You're right about this - but there doesn't have to be. We already have permission from the BRB to resolve the normal damage from a weapon attack; while GW certainly could give more permission here, it is not required to.) There is nothing saying that you do the normal damage in addition (Except the normal shooting sequence, which you don't get to ignore; the Stratagem does not say to ignore it.) - your statement even confirms that.

 doctortom wrote:

It doesn't matter what you've seen done, what matters is what you are told happens if you hit. We are told you do D3 mortal wounds. You are not tole you do D3 mortal wounds in additiion to a normal wound of x damage. There are other weapons or other effects that inflict a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, and they specfify that the mortal wound is in addition to the normal damage. If you are only told that you do d3 Mortal wounds, that's all you get to do.

Let me try this again. It doesn't matter what YOU'VE seen done with other rolls in other parts of the game. We're not talking about to-wound roll mortal wound generation, like sniper rifles or other stuff like that. There are no other weapons or other effects that inflict a mortal wound during a to-hit roll. Since you're never normally generating wounds during a to-hit roll, it would be pants on head bonkers to suggest that you're dealing any number of additional wounds during a to-wound roll. A "normal wound of x damage" doesn't get specified in addition there because it wouldn't have existed normally. That verbiage would add literally nothing no matter which way the stratagem operated.

The fact that some weapons specify that during a to-wound roll there are conditions where you can do extra mortal wounds has literally zero bearing on what happens when you do a to-hit roll, because wounds aren't being generated during a to-hit roll, only on a to-wound roll.

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It doesn't matter what you've seen done, what matters is what you are told happens if you hit. We are told you do D3 mortal wounds. You are not tole you do D3 mortal wounds in additiion to a normal wound of x damage. There are other weapons or other effects that inflict a mortal wound in addition to normal damage, and they specfify that the mortal wound is in addition to the normal damage. If you are only told that you do d3 Mortal wounds, that's all you get to do.

Let me try this again. It doesn't matter what YOU'VE seen done with other rolls in other parts of the game. We're not talking about to-wound roll mortal wound generation, like sniper rifles or other stuff like that. There are no other weapons or other effects that inflict a mortal wound during a to-hit roll. Since you're never normally generating wounds during a to-hit roll, it would be pants on head bonkers to suggest that you're dealing any number of additional wounds during a to-wound roll. A "normal wound of x damage" doesn't get specified in addition there because it wouldn't have existed normally. That verbiage would add literally nothing no matter which way the stratagem operated.

The fact that some weapons specify that during a to-wound roll there are conditions where you can do extra mortal wounds has literally zero bearing on what happens when you do a to-hit roll, because wounds aren't being generated during a to-hit roll, only on a to-wound roll.

I never said you are inflicting a mortal wound during a to-hit roll. I said that if you successfully hit, you are instructed by the stratagem what to do after that - inflict D3 mortal wounds. You are not instructed to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound. You've created a strawman argument here to ingore what you are instructed to do afteryou hit.

 daedalus wrote:

The fact that some weapons specify that during a to-wound roll there are conditions where you can do extra mortal wounds has literally zero bearing on what happens when you do a to-hit roll, because wounds aren't being generated during a to-hit roll, only on a to-wound roll.

But here there is no to-wound roll, because after the to-hit roll you inflict mortal wounds. How then are you inflicting wounds using another profile of the weapon off of the same to-hit roll? Especially if you're not arguing that you roll more than one to-hit roll. Your argument hinges on one hit roll resulting in both mortal wounds and an additional wound roll at the same time, which isn't what we're told to do. Using a stratagem tells us what to do, exactly. You roll the one hit roll, and then inflict mortal wounds. Nothing else is stated, nothing else is done - stratagems replace how normal rules work, so unless it said "in addition to," the normal firing rules don't apply.

And it's a pretty damn useful stratagem at that.

 doctortom wrote:

I never said you are inflicting a mortal wound during a to-hit roll.

That's precisely what the stratagem says you're doing.

I said that if you successfully hit, you are instructed by the stratagem what to do after that - inflict D3 mortal wounds. You are not instructed to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound.

You are not instructed to ignore the rest of the profile either.

You've created a strawman argument here to ingore what you are instructed to do afteryou hit.

 doctortom wrote:
Actually yes, you can argue against this from a RAW perspective. The rules for flakk missiles tell you the results if you hit - d3 automatic mortal wounds. Raishase has it correct in that it would say "an additional D3 mortal wounds" or "D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound inflicted" if the normal damage were to be done in addition to the normal wounds. Since the only thing stated for if you it is inflicting d3 mortal wounds, by RAW all you inflict as a result of the hit is d3 mortal wounds.

I was responding to this. And you're still wrong.

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I never said you are inflicting a mortal wound during a to-hit roll.

That's precisely what the stratagem says you're doing.

I said that if you successfully hit, you are instructed by the stratagem what to do after that - inflict D3 mortal wounds. You are not instructed to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound.

You are not instructed to ignore the rest of the profile either.

Why do you need to be? The stratagem tells you what to do when you use it. You never select a profile to fire, because you use the stratagem.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Why do you need to be? The stratagem tells you what to do when you use it. You never select a profile to fire, because you use the stratagem.

What's the range on the weapon?

Jacksmiles wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I never said you are inflicting a mortal wound during a to-hit roll.

That's precisely what the stratagem says you're doing.

I said that if you successfully hit, you are instructed by the stratagem what to do after that - inflict D3 mortal wounds. You are not instructed to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound.

You are not instructed to ignore the rest of the profile either.

Why do you need to be? The stratagem tells you what to do when you use it. You never select a profile to fire, because you use the stratagem.

You have to select a profile, otherwise a weapon cannot even get to the "To Hit" stage of rolling at which point the Stratagem starts working (the profile is referenced before that, e.g. to check range, as daedalus mentions)

 daedalus wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Why do you need to be? The stratagem tells you what to do when you use it. You never select a profile to fire, because you use the stratagem.

What's the range on the weapon?

Touche, still early for me.

Want to address how your argument still needs more than one hit roll to function, though? My previous post.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

The fact that some weapons specify that during a to-wound roll there are conditions where you can do extra mortal wounds has literally zero bearing on what happens when you do a to-hit roll, because wounds aren't being generated during a to-hit roll, only on a to-wound roll.

But here there is no to-wound roll, because after the to-hit roll you inflict mortal wounds. How then are you inflicting wounds using another profile of the weapon off of the same to-hit roll? Especially if you're not arguing that you roll more than one to-hit roll. Your argument hinges on one hit roll resulting in both mortal wounds and an additional wound roll at the same time, which isn't what we're told to do. Using a stratagem tells us what to do, exactly. You roll the one hit roll, and then inflict mortal wounds. Nothing else is stated, nothing else is done - stratagems replace how normal rules work, so unless it said "in addition to," the normal firing rules don't apply.

And it's a pretty damn useful stratagem at that.

My counters to the meat of your statement are below:

Your argument hinges on one hit roll resulting in both mortal wounds and an additional wound roll at the same time, which isn't what we're told to do. Yes it is. That's exactly what we're told to do, because we have to follow 2 sets of instructions: one from the BRB and one from the Stratagem. Our options are either to let the game break, or follow both instructions.

Using a stratagem tells us what to do, exactly. Yes, this is true. Noticeably, it does not tell us what we cannot do - so there are no restrictions on following other permissions or instructions.

You roll the one hit roll, and then inflict mortal wounds. Nothing else is stated, With you so far.

nothing else is done Why not?

stratagems replace how normal rules work, If this is your answer to my "why not" - it's a weak one. Because they don't. Stratagems are additional rules, not replacement rules, and presumably the ones intended to replace a rule say so, like the GK Psychic Communion which says roll 3 dice instead of 2. There is no such restriction or replacement language in the Flak Missile stratagem.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Want to address how your argument still needs more than one hit roll to function, though? My previous post.

I mean, the way I read it? You only get one roll hit with your weapon profile. You have to choose either the krak missile or the frag missile profile to use, because you have to choose one. You only get one to-hit roll regardless. If it hits, you deal d3 mortal wounds. You've made a hit with the weapon profile though, so you have to follow through with the rest of the rules with the weapon.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I never said you are inflicting a mortal wound during a to-hit roll.

That's precisely what the stratagem says you're doing.

I said that if you successfully hit, you are instructed by the stratagem what to do after that - inflict D3 mortal wounds. You are not instructed to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound.

You are not instructed to ignore the rest of the profile either.

Why do you need to be? The stratagem tells you what to do when you use it. You never select a profile to fire, because you use the stratagem.

You have to select a profile, otherwise a weapon cannot even get to the "To Hit" stage of rolling at which point the Stratagem starts working (the profile is referenced before that, e.g. to check range, as daedalus mentions)

So what? You select a profile, you roll to hit, the stratagem tells you what to do when you hit. You inflct D3 Mortal wounds. You are not told you inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.

And really, I thought this played out the way everyone else does the three or four times I glanced at it. It wasn't until I actually read this thread that I was convinced otherwise.

Really, if I had to speculate how it was SUPPOSED to work, I'd probably agree that it replaces the profile. I just can't see how that supported.

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I never said you are inflicting a mortal wound during a to-hit roll.

That's precisely what the stratagem says you're doing.

I said that if you successfully hit, you are instructed by the stratagem what to do after that - inflict D3 mortal wounds. You are not instructed to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound.

You are not instructed to ignore the rest of the profile either.

Why do you need to be? The stratagem tells you what to do when you use it. You never select a profile to fire, because you use the stratagem.

You have to select a profile, otherwise a weapon cannot even get to the "To Hit" stage of rolling at which point the Stratagem starts working (the profile is referenced before that, e.g. to check range, as daedalus mentions)

So what? You select a profile, you roll to hit, the stratagem tells you what to do when you hit. You inflct D3 Mortal wounds. You are not told you inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.

Yes you are, because the BRB requires you to continue with the rest of the hit.

The BRB tells you how to resolve attacks.

The stratagem gives you extra things to do in the process of resolving the attack without revoking or contradicting the instruction you already received from the BRB on calling the attack function.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


My counters to the meat of your statement are below:

Your argument hinges on one hit roll resulting in both mortal wounds and an additional wound roll at the same time, which isn't what we're told to do. Yes it is. That's exactly what we're told to do, because we have to follow 2 sets of instructions: one from the BRB and one from the Stratagem. Our options are either to let the game break, or follow both instructions.

Nothing breaks.

Using a stratagem tells us what to do, exactly. Yes, this is true. Noticeably, it does not tell us what we cannot do - so there are no restrictions on following other permissions or instructions.

There doesn't need to be restrictions, if you follow the instructions in the stratagem.

You roll the one hit roll, and then inflict mortal wounds. Nothing else is stated, With you so far.

Fantastic!

nothing else is done Why not?

Because nothing else is stated - the rule has ended, and so has the attack.

stratagems replace how normal rules work, If this is your answer to my "why not" - it's a weak one. Because they don't. Stratagems are additional rules, not replacement rules, and presumably the ones intended to replace a rule say so, like the GK Psychic Communion which says roll 3 dice instead of 2. There is no such restriction or replacement language in the Flak Missile stratagem.

This is a weak argument? Stratagems alter how rules, profiles, and models function - i.e. how I said "replace." I should have said the "alter" statement instead, but they are not 100% "additional."

I changed the color back because red makes me think of mods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Want to address how your argument still needs more than one hit roll to function, though? My previous post.

I mean, the way I read it? You only get one roll hit with your weapon profile. You have to choose either the krak missile or the frag missile profile to use, because you have to choose one. You only get one to-hit roll regardless. If it hits, you deal d3 mortal wounds. You've made a hit with the weapon profile though, so you have to follow through with the rest of the rules with the weapon.

Which are what? Somehow doing d6 hit rolls still? You can't, because you only get the one specified in the stratagem. The hit roll in the strat tells you the result of that hit roll, there are no other hit rolls.

Jacksmiles wrote:

This is a weak argument. Stratagems alter how rules, profiles, and models function - i.e. how I said "replace." I should have said the "alter" statement instead, but they are not 100% "additional."

Actually, I can't find anything that says categorically how stratagems are supposed to interact with existing rules.

Which are what? Somehow doing d6 hit rolls still? You can't, because you only get the one specified in the stratagem. The hit roll in the strat tells you the result of that hit roll, there are no other hit rolls.

Right. The one roll to hit on a success means that you deal D3 mortal wounds. And it's a hit, with a weapon with a profile, so you roll to wound with the hit. That means that you got one hit with the frag profile, or one hit with the krak profile. You'd then roll to wound on that one roll to hit. No d6 hits, no extra hits. Just the one to hit that you got.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


My counters to the meat of your statement are below:

Your argument hinges on one hit roll resulting in both mortal wounds and an additional wound roll at the same time, which isn't what we're told to do. Yes it is. That's exactly what we're told to do, because we have to follow 2 sets of instructions: one from the BRB and one from the Stratagem. Our options are either to let the game break, or follow both instructions.

Nothing breaks.

Using a stratagem tells us what to do, exactly. Yes, this is true. Noticeably, it does not tell us what we cannot do - so there are no restrictions on following other permissions or instructions.

There doesn't need to be restrictions, if you follow the instructions in the stratagem.

You roll the one hit roll, and then inflict mortal wounds. Nothing else is stated, With you so far.

Fantastic!

nothing else is done Why not?

Because nothing else is stated - the rule has ended, and so has the attack.

stratagems replace how normal rules work, If this is your answer to my "why not" - it's a weak one. Because they don't. Stratagems are additional rules, not replacement rules, and presumably the ones intended to replace a rule say so, like the GK Psychic Communion which says roll 3 dice instead of 2. There is no such restriction or replacement language in the Flak Missile stratagem.

This is a weak argument. Stratagems alter how rules, profiles, and models function - i.e. how I said "replace." I should have said the "alter" statement instead, but they are not 100% "additional."

I changed the color back because red makes me think of mods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Want to address how your argument still needs more than one hit roll to function, though? My previous post.

I mean, the way I read it? You only get one roll hit with your weapon profile. You have to choose either the krak missile or the frag missile profile to use, because you have to choose one. You only get one to-hit roll regardless. If it hits, you deal d3 mortal wounds. You've made a hit with the weapon profile though, so you have to follow through with the rest of the rules with the weapon.

Which are what? Somehow doing d6 hit rolls still? You can't, because you only get the one specified in the stratagem. The hit roll in the strat tells you the result of that hit roll, there are no other hit rolls.

Gonna go point by point again:

1) Yes, it does break. You have an unresolved attack - you can go on with the game in real life, but if the game were a computer program, it would crash right then and there because part of the program is unable to resolve, and "hangs" in the literal, programming sense.

2) Yes there does, because the Stratagem's instructions never ever ever say a word about the BRB's instructions; you can follow them, and still do what the BRB says, and there's no conflict whatsoever.

3) The stratagem rule has ended - the Attack still hangs. You've made a To-Hit roll with a weapon profile. You are instructed by the BRB (not the Stratagem) to move on to the To Wound roll - and nothing in the stratagem says not to do this.

4) Do you have a citation for the fact that the stratagem is altering the normal attack sequence rather than merely adding to it? I see no evidence that it is not simply resolved separately and then the normal attack continues on.

Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

I never said you are inflicting a mortal wound during a to-hit roll.

That's precisely what the stratagem says you're doing.

I said that if you successfully hit, you are instructed by the stratagem what to do after that - inflict D3 mortal wounds. You are not instructed to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound.

You are not instructed to ignore the rest of the profile either.

Why do you need to be? The stratagem tells you what to do when you use it. You never select a profile to fire, because you use the stratagem.

You have to select a profile, otherwise a weapon cannot even get to the "To Hit" stage of rolling at which point the Stratagem starts working (the profile is referenced before that, e.g. to check range, as daedalus mentions)

So what? You select a profile, you roll to hit, the stratagem tells you what to do when you hit. You inflct D3 Mortal wounds. You are not told you inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.

Yes you are, because the BRB requires you to continue with the rest of the hit.

The BRB tells you how to resolve attacks.

The stratagem gives you extra things to do in the process of resolving the attack without revoking or contradicting the instruction you already received from the BRB on calling the attack function.

No. The stratagem doesn't say it's giving you "extra" things to do in the process of resolving the attack, it's telling you what you have to do when resolving the attack. In specific, it tells you to inflict d3 mortal wounds. it does not tell you to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound. That's not "extra", that's a substitution.

As for following the BRB, you are still follwing the BRB (or the battle primer, since it's in the core rules) - you follow the rules in the Mortal Wounds sidebar where it says "Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound - just inflict it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit as described above" Your claim that we're not following the BRB to resolve attacks is ludicrous given that the BRB tells us how to resolve attacks that have mortal wounds.

Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

 doctortom wrote:

No. The stratagem doesn't say it's giving you "extra" things to do in the process of resolving the attack, it's telling you what you have to do when resolving the attack. In specific, it tells you to inflict d3 mortal wounds. it does not tell you to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound. That's not "extra", that's a substitution.

As for following the BRB, you are still follwing the BRB (or the battle primer, since it's in the core rules) - you follow the rules in the Mortal Wounds sidebar where it says "Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound - just inflict it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit as described above" Your claim that we're not following the BRB to resolve attacks is ludicrous given that the BRB tells us how to resolve attacks that have mortal wounds.

Once again, point by point:
1) It tells you what to do when resolving the stratagem, and says nothing about resolving the attack. There is no language to indicate it is a substitution, and since you already have permission to resolve the rest of the shooting attack, we must conclude that it is extra.

2) You misunderstand me - I know how to resolve the stratagem as, you're right, mortal wounds are clear. But the attack, which is still ongoing, is resolved using the normal shooting rules for the weapon. The stratagem does not replace the normal attack, as in order to do so, it would have to say it does, as with the Daemon Bolt stratagem.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Gonna go point by point again:

1) Yes, it does break. You have an unresolved attack - you can go on with the game in real life, but if the game were a computer program, it would crash right then and there because part of the program is unable to resolve, and "hangs" in the literal, programming sense.

2) Yes there does, because the Stratagem's instructions never ever ever say a word about the BRB's instructions; you can follow them, and still do what the BRB says, and there's no conflict whatsoever.

3) The stratagem rule has ended - the Attack still hangs. You've made a To-Hit roll with a weapon profile. You are instructed by the BRB (not the Stratagem) to move on to the To Wound roll - and nothing in the stratagem says not to do this.

4) Do you have a citation for the fact that the stratagem is altering the normal attack sequence rather than merely adding to it? I see no evidence that it is not simply resolved separately and then the normal attack continues on.

1) This is an assumption on your part. If the stratagem resolves by replacing the attack, nothing is broken, because the attack is resolved. A computer program would follow this by an If-Then where the If is the use of the stratagem, and the Then is not firing one of the two normal profiles. It's fine.

2) Just because you don't see a conflict doesn't mean it's correct.

3) The attack doesn't hang. Which profile have you used? The d6 attacks one? You can't have, you only got one hit roll - if you choose a profile, you need to follow the profile, the stratagem is an additional boon, according to you. How do you resolve the d6 attacks with one hit roll?

4) Do you have a citation to the contrary? Apparently this is the crux, and daedalus said they can't find it saying either way.

 doctortom wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Incorrect. Telling you what you do after a hit overrides what you would normally do after a hit. It would need to specify the mortal wounds are in addition to the normal damage if it's not substituting for the normal damage. It doesn't specify, it merely states that you do mortal d3 Mortal wounds when you hit, therefore that's all you're entitled to do.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

No. The stratagem doesn't say it's giving you "extra" things to do in the process of resolving the attack, it's telling you what you have to do when resolving the attack. In specific, it tells you to inflict d3 mortal wounds. it does not tell you to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound. That's not "extra", that's a substitution.

As for following the BRB, you are still follwing the BRB (or the battle primer, since it's in the core rules) - you follow the rules in the Mortal Wounds sidebar where it says "Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound - just inflict it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit as described above" Your claim that we're not following the BRB to resolve attacks is ludicrous given that the BRB tells us how to resolve attacks that have mortal wounds.

Once again, point by point:
1) It tells you what to do when resolving the stratagem, and says nothing about resolving the attack. There is no language to indicate it is a substitution, and since you already have permission to resolve the rest of the shooting attack, we must conclude that it is extra.

2) You misunderstand me - I know how to resolve the stratagem as, you're right, mortal wounds are clear. But the attack, which is still ongoing, is resolved using the normal shooting rules for the weapon. The stratagem does not replace the normal attack, as in order to do so, it would have to say it does, as with the Daemon Bolt stratagem.

1) The hit roll is the attack - it's resolved as of the d3 mortal wounds.

2) The attack also doesn't say anything about the normal attack continuing to be resolved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

It's not hard. It's incorrect

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Gonna go point by point again:

1) Yes, it does break. You have an unresolved attack - you can go on with the game in real life, but if the game were a computer program, it would crash right then and there because part of the program is unable to resolve, and "hangs" in the literal, programming sense.

2) Yes there does, because the Stratagem's instructions never ever ever say a word about the BRB's instructions; you can follow them, and still do what the BRB says, and there's no conflict whatsoever.

3) The stratagem rule has ended - the Attack still hangs. You've made a To-Hit roll with a weapon profile. You are instructed by the BRB (not the Stratagem) to move on to the To Wound roll - and nothing in the stratagem says not to do this.

4) Do you have a citation for the fact that the stratagem is altering the normal attack sequence rather than merely adding to it? I see no evidence that it is not simply resolved separately and then the normal attack continues on.

1) This is an assumption on your part. If the stratagem resolves by replacing the attack, nothing is broken, because the attack is resolved. A computer program would follow this by an If-Then where the If is the use of the stratagem, and the Then is not firing one of the two normal profiles. It's fine.

2) Just because you don't see a conflict doesn't mean it's correct.

3) The attack doesn't hang. Which profile have you used? The d6 attacks one? You can't have, you only got one hit roll - if you choose a profile, you need to follow the profile, the stratagem is an additional boon, according to you. How do you resolve the d6 attacks with one hit roll?

4) Do you have a citation to the contrary? Apparently this is the crux, and daedalus said they can't find it saying either way.

1) is not an assumption, because the stratagem does not replace the attack. If it does, please cite where it says so. The language of the stratagem lacks the portion you've implied with your "then" statement: where does it say it is not firing one of the two normal profiles?

2) Show me the conflict that I might see it.

3) The game breaks. Better not chose the d6 profile then! Fortunately there's another profile to choose that requires one hit roll, so there's a way to avert breaking the game while still following its internal logic. If you do want to pick the d6 shots one, there's nothing stopping you though; but you've just broken 40k RAW.

4) The BRB forces you to follow steps from shooting. It is non-optional. The stratagem does not replace or revoke this mandate.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

It's not overriding what the BRB "madates" you do on a successful hit roll. The rules for mortal wounds are also part of the BRB and you follow those. You are told you do not roll to wound for mortal wounds. You have to be told that you do both mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound, and the flakk missiles stratagem does not tell you to do that. Therefore you do only mortal wounds, and follow what the BRB mandates you do by following the mortal wounds rules and ignoring the to wound roll since you have not been instructed that you have any normal wounds that you have to make a to wound roll for.