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Hi, Gang:

Infantry Unit half in, half out of cover (say 3 in, 2 out).

Shot at, hit, and wounded by 5 identical shots from one firing unit.

If in resolving wounds, the first two fail (obviously without cover Saves), and kill the two guys outside of cover, do you now provide a cover bonus to armour Saves for the remaining 3 shots?

Same question, but with different shooting profiles from one firing unit (say like a plasma gun and some bolters, etc.).

The Main Rulebook says the rules assume shooting and resolving wounds individually, which is what lead to the questions.

Thanks for the direction!

No one gets a cover save bonus unless everyone qualifies. So, assign the first wound(s) to the models that are not in cover. When you get to assigning wounds to models that are in cover, and all remaining models are also in cover, then you gain the bonus.

Cheers!

That sounds wrong DCannon4Life, I'm fairly sure they FAQ'd it saying that if your unit is not eligible for the cover bonus when a unit starts shooting at it, that they can't get it until all of the attacks are resolved.

Ie: Assuming the situation in the OP, if you have unit A, and enemy X shoots at you, you don't get the benefit of cover. Say the 2 models die in that round of shooting, and enemy Y shoots at you. You then get the benefit of cover as your entire unit was in cover when the enemy started shooting at you.

(I'll see if I can find the FAQ)


*Edit*

Looks like I was wrong. It is covered under the designers commentary on page 2.

DCannon4Life wrote:
No one gets a cover save bonus unless everyone qualifies. So, assign the first wound(s) to the models that are not in cover. When you get to assigning wounds to models that are in cover, and all remaining models are also in cover, then you gain the bonus.

Cheers!

This is correct.

no its not correct completely.

If you take 10 wounds from one round of shooting you will need to take 10 saves without the benefit of cover even if only 4 models are out of cover.

After this round of shooting is over, if all models are in cover you will then gain the cover bonus for any remaining rounds of shooting (i.e. different unit).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no its not correct completely.

If you take 10 wounds from one round of shooting you will need to take 10 saves without the benefit of cover even if only 4 models are out of cover.

After this round of shooting is over, if all models are in cover you will then gain the cover bonus for any remaining rounds of shooting (i.e. different unit).

That's not correct. You resolve hits one at a time, and when all models not in cover are dead the rest can benefit from cover bonus. A previous poster even linked the Designer's Commentary where it is FAQ'd to work this way.

no you read that wrong. It is as I said.


All the wounds dealt from a shooting unit are done simultaniously and you get no cover bonus. You would get it from any remaining shooting from other units.

Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover.

 mrwhoop wrote:
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover.

This.

Eihnlazer wrote:no you read that wrong. It is as I said.


All the wounds dealt from a shooting unit are done simultaniously and you get no cover bonus. You would get it from any remaining shooting from other units.

mrwhoop wrote:Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover.

See? Eihnlazer, you're definitely not correct on this one. The passage quoted here tells you that all wounds are not done simultaneously, as do the Core Rules.

Some of this depends on fast rolling or not. If you do not use fast rolling then the rules themselves clearly state that once the models not in cover are removed the rest do benefit from cover. If you fast roll all of your saves then you would not benefit from cover.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Some of this depends on fast rolling or not. If you do not use fast rolling then the rules themselves clearly state that once the models not in cover are removed the rest do benefit from cover. If you fast roll all of your saves then you would not benefit from cover.

The rules for 'Fast Dice Rolling' don't permit you to roll all of your saves at one time:

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

I could fast roll the two out of cover till they die. Then when they do I could fast roll the ones in cover.

Assuming they are all same kit Joe schomes

What I said was all the shots are fired simultaneously and therefore also take effect using the same bonus' and penalties.


If marine squad fires 8 bolter shots and a bolt pistol and a flamer at the same unit for example, and 2 guys are out of cover you would do the following:

Roll for how many flamer shots you get.
Roll to hit with all the bolter shots.

Altogether you get 9 hits. All are str4 no rend so roll them to wound altogether. You get 6 wounds.

The unit being shot at are hormagaunts with a 6+ save and 1 wound each.

As the models are all exactly the same and single wound models you would just roll 6 6+ saves.

You dont get the benefit of cover saves from that round of shooting as long as ANY of the models were out of cover.

Yes you could allocate the wounds one at a time as per the rules to the models out of cover, but all the shooting is happening at the same time and the unit doesnt get a cover bonus against it.

Once that unit has finished shooting, you no longer have models out of cover and then you get the cover bonus to any other shooting going at the unit.

From 'Fast Dice Rolling' (emphasis added):

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

And from the Warhammer 40,000 Designer's Commentary:

Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or just the model making a particular saving throw?

A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.

Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit of cover.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
What I said was all the shots are fired simultaneously and therefore also take effect using the same bonus' and penalties.


If marine squad fires 8 bolter shots and a bolt pistol and a flamer at the same unit for example, and 2 guys are out of cover you would do the following:

Roll for how many flamer shots you get.
Roll to hit with all the bolter shots.

Altogether you get 9 hits. All are str4 no rend so roll them to wound altogether. You get 6 wounds.

The unit being shot at are hormagaunts with a 6+ save and 1 wound each.

As the models are all exactly the same and single wound models you would just roll 6 6+ saves.

You dont get the benefit of cover saves from that round of shooting as long as ANY of the models were out of cover.

Yes you could allocate the wounds one at a time as per the rules to the models out of cover, but all the shooting is happening at the same time and the unit doesnt get a cover bonus against it.

Once that unit has finished shooting, you no longer have models out of cover and then you get the cover bonus to any other shooting going at the unit.

As has been pointed out, the wounds are allocated one at a time, and mrwhoop provided the quotation from the Designers' Commentary refuting your statement.

"Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover. "

When resolving the attacks, they are obviously not treating making saves as an at the same time type of thing, since they tell you to do the saves one at a time.

In the rules for fast dice rolling it says the following, "...Your opponent can the allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate. ..."

According to this each figure in cover would be entitled to his saving throw as appropriate so if you remove all of the models who are not in cover first those with cover will benefit since you determine modifiers on a model by model basis.

You can not fast roll saves if some of the figures may benefit from cover after the removal of some of the figures since they wouldn't all be using the same modifiers.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
What I said was all the shots are fired simultaneously and therefore also take effect using the same bonus' and penalties.


If marine squad fires 8 bolter shots and a bolt pistol and a flamer at the same unit for example, and 2 guys are out of cover you would do the following:

Roll for how many flamer shots you get.
Roll to hit with all the bolter shots.

Altogether you get 9 hits. All are str4 no rend so roll them to wound altogether. You get 6 wounds.

The unit being shot at are hormagaunts with a 6+ save and 1 wound each.

As the models are all exactly the same and single wound models you would just roll 6 6+ saves.

You dont get the benefit of cover saves from that round of shooting as long as ANY of the models were out of cover.

Yes you could allocate the wounds one at a time as per the rules to the models out of cover, but all the shooting is happening at the same time and the unit doesnt get a cover bonus against it.

Once that unit has finished shooting, you no longer have models out of cover and then you get the cover bonus to any other shooting going at the unit.

Still not correct, sorry. I'd heed the others posting as they're demonstrating the correct way.

So then exactly what is the point of the cover rules stating that "no models receive the bonus if any are outside of the ruin" if you guys are correct?


I fail to see why they would even say that if so.

Maybe you just want to kill off some guys in cover instead of the guys outside of it because of some tactical aspect that is more important than the benefit of cover for the rest of the squad.

Or maybe you have some unit/weapon/stratagem that allows the shooting side to allocate wounds? It would make a significant difference then.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So then exactly what is the point of the cover rules stating that "no models receive the bonus if any are outside of the ruin" if you guys are correct?


I fail to see why they would even say that if so.

In this case we have RAW and a clear statement of designers' intent, so there's no point arguing why it's there. We've been told how it operates by the writers, and had that further clarified, also by the writers.

I think you have shots happening together in your head like 7th, whereas in 8th the default is one by one and the Fast Rolling rules allow certain things to be bucketed together. If you've fast rolled an inch of shots then when it comes to saves your opponent is perfectly within their rights to take saves one by one, either because of wounded models and variable damage, part units in cover, variable loadouts, a Storm Shield he wants to tank with, etc. In these cases you *must* break with fast rolling or it falls down. Try resolving 6 lascannon hits against a unit of 3 models, all with 4 Wounds, 3 of which are in cover. You can't unless you slow down a touch and roll saves and wounds separately.

Yep, most of the posters in this thread are correct.

The battle primer explicitly states: "The rules have been written assuming you make one attack at a time".

Fast Rolling is simply used when there is no difference between profiles, etc. Meaning you can "Fast Roll" to wound when shooting at a unit in cover, because cover does not affect that in any way shape or form. The reason a unit does not get a cover bonus unless the entire unit is in cover is directly because you resolve attacks one at a time, per the rules. Thus a unit of 10 guardians with one model in cover cannot try to soak up all the attacks in place of the rest of the unit. This is why they later clarified this fact.

When you have half a unit in cover, and half out - you would roll attacks one at a time, until you've lost all of the models out of cover (unless they're important in which case you can choose to sacrifice your models in cover to save those more important models --- the models in cover would just use a normal save roll with no benefit). If you do eliminate all of the models which are not in cover, then yes you immediately begin using the cover bonus on the remaining models in cover.

Now, somewhat oddly you can soak up wounds for a unit with a special save (because attacks are resolved one at a time) meaning a storm shield model can try to protect a full unit, but risks being slain if the save is failed etc.