Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

By that logic we can target a Grey Knight character in a different game, or one in the future.

No because as mention on page 242 you may only use strategems before or during the battle and therefore not in another of a future battle as I said to the other troll.

You can't "prove" a negative. If a model is not on the table it's not in play (that's just common sense). So you show me a rule that says that you can do anything that effects a model that is not in play. There are stratagems that state that they can be used before play begins this stratagem does not say that you can do so. In fact, according to you, the stratagem says to "target" a model or unit. How do you target something that isn't in play?

p242 says that I can use a stratagem before a battle. Since it doesn't restrict me to the battle I'm going to play in the immediate future I suppose that means that I can spend my left over CPs from my last battle on stratagems on my next battle. After all those points are just being spent before a battle. (Note how ridiculous that sounds but that's what you're claiming in essence).

U02dah4 wrote:
No because as mention on page 242 you may only use strategems before or during the battle and therefore not in another of a future battle as I said to the other troll.

But in the case of casting it on a buddy on another table, you are using it during the battle. You cast it in your battle. It's only the effect that goes over to the other battle. The stratagem doesn't say the effect can't go over to another battle just like it doesn't say it can't go off the table.

Absurdist? Yes, but it's just an extrapolation of the reasoning you are using.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You can't "prove" a negative. If a model is not on the table it's not in play (that's just common sense). So you show me a rule that says that you can do anything that effects a model that is not in play. There are stratagems that state that they can be used before play begins this stratagem does not say that you can do so. In fact, according to you, the stratagem says to "target" a model or unit. How do you target something that isn't in play?

p242 says that I can use a stratagem before a battle. Since it doesn't restrict me to the battle I'm going to play in the immediate future I suppose that means that I can spend my left over CPs from my last battle on stratagems on my next battle. After all those points are just being spent before a battle. (Note how ridiculous that sounds but that's what you're claiming in essence).

Common sense has never applied to Raw as written by GW and is in itself a RaI argument. Reinforcements are not deployed to the battlefield but they are in play and are considered part of your army otherwise you would have to pay pts for them when they arrive e.g. summoning.

They can't normally be targeted because you cannot draw Los to them but the reinforcement's section of the core rules doesn't place any restrictions on them being a target or state they are not in play.

No I have never argued that you can target or impact a 2nd battle. No one has argued that or believes that it is a troll argument with no merit. It just makes the sensible arguments hard to read and clunks up the thread please make sensibe arguments.

They are not the same logic at all. The rules of any game you play only apply to the game your playing & if you really dont understand why then try snakes & ladders the game might be more suited to you 40k is obviously a little complex for you. However I suspect most of you are just trolling.

Within the game you have permission to target whatever unit the strategem tells you that you may target. Units in reserve are part of the game so may be targeted as you are told to select a grey knight unit.

I was really on the fence about this one and kept going back and forth as I read peoples' replies, but I think U02dah4 has it right. There's nothing in Stratagems, the actual stratagem or the Reinforcement rules that would prohibit targeting. Stratagems do not, pointedly, preclude targeting reinforcements in their section of the rulebook.

So yeah, I agree now: you can target a GK held back as reinforcements.

Except for the fact it doesn't let you to begin with?

I'm a GK player and I think that there's no way that you can apply a stratagem to a model/unit that is not in play without being given specific permission. GW had to clarify that even though a model/unit was in a vehicle on the board the unit itself did not count as being on the board. I fail to see how something not even being seen as potentially on the board can be considered in the game for effect purposes.

If you can effect models not on the board with a stratagem can I affect your models with a stratagem?

If it is a fact Mr Bacon prove it ..... However you can't because there is no fact as you put it

U02dah4 wrote:
If it is a fact Mr Bacon prove it ..... However you can't because there is no fact as you put it

I already did in the previous thread about it.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm a GK player and I think that there's no way that you can apply a stratagem to a model/unit that is not in play without being given specific permission. GW had to clarify that even though a model/unit was in a vehicle on the board the unit itself did not count as being on the board. I fail to see how something not even being seen as potentially on the board can be considered in the game for effect purposes.

If you can effect models not on the board with a stratagem can I affect your models with a stratagem?

We are not saying it's on the board we are saying that not being on the board doesn't prevent it being targeted. Embarked stuff is a different case entirely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
If it is a fact Mr Bacon prove it ..... However you can't because there is no fact as you put it

I already did in the previous thread about it.

Where your argument lost to yak face? Didn't we have this discussion before you reply I think he's wrong and I say that's not an argument

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By that logic we can target a Grey Knight character in a different game, or one in the future.

For once I agree with one of BCB's "by that logic" posts... the sky truly is falling!

Seriously though, he's right. Uo2dah4, I love how you didn't read my post and instead just repeated that I'm making things up and that the RAW is clear, when other people are saying it isn't. There is a grey area here. Common sense fixes it, or you can scream "RAWWWW!" to the skies and pretend it makes sense.

Please don't keep on arguing your (erroneous) RAW against my HIWPI. It wastes everyone's time.

Hey look! Mr Absurd Again. But, a little more relevant things here.

So, you were right, my previous post was a little trolly. But I have come back for more.

To me, this it the logic you are using on this particular case.
Strategem says
:Use this Stratagem at the start of your turn. Pick a GREY
KNIGHTS CHARACTER and add 1 to its invulnerable
saving throws until the start of your next turn.

Boils down to the following
Timing
Pick (thing) do (thing)
Lasts X time.
No limitations given to where the Character is


Going to focus on the 'Pick (thing) Do (Thing)' portion, and Limitations here.

Moving:
'Start your MOvement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you've moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit'

By your logic, there is no limitation to this. I am allowed to pick a unit of Genestealers held in reserve by a Trygon to arrive via subterranean assault. So I move my models, on the prescribed table of models we both have for ready access to models in reserve. I Choose to advance them closer to your Grey Knights Character that you really want to give that +1 to the invul.

Psychic phase: Choose a psyker
Literally just says 'Choose a Psyker and POwer'
Imma choose my Broodlord, who is also waiting underground. To cast Smite. I succeed! The only model you have on that reserve table happens to be that character. Sorry but, my broodlord can see your model (They are on a flat table after all), and your Character is the closest so...D3 mortal wounds!

Once again. The word 'battlefield' does not appear.

Shooting Phase: Choose unit you want to shoot with
'First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with' Hmm...once again, doesn't say 'on the battlefield.' So, Trygon Prime it is!
Choose Target.
'In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be thighin the range of the weapon being used, and be visible to the shooting model'
Good thing this is a small table and your character is within 12 inches of my Prime. Shooting goes! Once again...no mention of 'on the battlefield.
Damn! Would you look at this! My Deployed Tyrannofex is within 48 inches of your character, and thankfully there is a hill that gives him vision to the model. Heavy 3 rupture cannon shots hoooo!

Man, this reserve table doesn't have terrain on it, I should do my fighting off the battlefield more often

Charge Phase:
Choose unit to charge with. 'Any of your units withing 12" of the enemy in your charge phase can make a charge now.'
Well hey now, those Genestealers from before are within 12" or your Character, on the table used for reinforcement models coming in later. Rule doesn't say it HAS to be on the battlefield. A charging we will go!

Hey look, once again, 0 mention of a battlefield!

So...I really don't want to continue with this.

I have applied your logic, to other parts of the game. And this is the result. I have just had an entire turn, off the battlefield, between a unit underground, and a unit in space.
Why? Because there is no limitation in those section that say 'must be on the battlefield'

Sure, you can pick your Grey Knight Character that is in Reinforcements.
However,
I can pick my genestealers in reinforcement to advance
I can pick your Character to shoot with my Tyrannofex if that Character is within 48" of my Tyrannofex, and my Tyrannofex can see the model.
I can pick my Genestealers to charge so long as your Character is within 12" of my Genestealers
I can charge your Character so long as I roll 2d6 and make that distance.


Therefore:
All of this is using the same language of the Strategem.
Your Strategem does not get a special 'Pass' for being a Strategem.
It uses the same language that is presented in the core rule book.
Which means if you want to apply the logic of 'There is no rule saying I can't' to your Strategem, then I am going to apply the logic of 'There is no rule saying I can't' and shoot and charge your reinforcements off the board, before they hit the board.

Well I have given you many opportunities Johnny to come up with a contradictory raw answer i read your post and so far you haven't yet. Until you do or someone else does I'm not going to agree it's confusing. Also you have failed to demonstrate anything was unintended just that you don't like it.

As to korbes love the grade A trolling not being on the battlefield does not make you everywhere at once this means you confuse valid selection with ridiculous outcomes that is not my logic at all.

not being on the battlefield you cannot measure LoS. There are no units within range as you are not on the battlefield and cannot measure range. So yes in the shooting phase you can select a unit off the field to shoot however you can't shoot at anything same as charge phase you cannot charge it.

In the movement phase you can't physically move as you are not deployed so hypothetically you move within the teleportarium but it has zero game impact.

As to selecting a psyker short answer yes you could cast a psychic power however no Los rules out 90% of psychic powers and most of the rest are self buffs and they have 0 impact on a game because they dissappear before your deployed I suppose it could impact the game if you perils of the warped but I doubt your opponent will care if you kill yourself.

I apply the logic saying you can select all those things but there are clear rules saying you have to measure range and Los to do so and your ignoring them that is not grounded in rules or logic

U02dah4 wrote:
No because as mention on page 242 you may only use strategems before or during the battle and therefore not in another of a future battle as I said to the other troll.

Actually.....if it's a future battle you're talking about, then it would definitely be before that battle - just sayin'

U02dah4 wrote:

As to korbes love the grade A trolling not being on the battlefield does not make you everywhere at once this means you confuse valid selection with ridiculous outcomes that is not my logic at all.

not being on the battlefield you cannot measure LoS. There are no units within range as you are not on the battlefield and cannot measure range. So yes in the shooting phase you can select a unit off the field to shoot however you can't shoot at anything same as charge phase you cannot charge it.

In the movement phase you can't physically move as you are not deployed so hypothetically you move within the teleportarium but it has zero game impact.

As to selecting a psyker short answer yes you could cast a psychic power however no Los rules out 90% of psychic powers and most of the rest are self buffs and they have 0 impact on a game because they dissappear before your deployed I suppose it could impact the game if you perils of the warped but I doubt your opponent will care if you kill yourself.

I apply the logic saying you can select all those things but there are clear rules saying you have to measure range and Los to do so and your ignoring them that is not grounded in rules or logic

Choose Targets:
In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model. If unsure, stoop down and get a look from behind the shooting model to see if any part of the target is visible.
Page 179 from Core Rulebook.

Range is determined from model to model. As your model is not actually in space, and in my situation mentioned, it is within 48" of my Tyrannofex, all limitations are accounted for.

Please. Tell me where it says I have to be on the battlefield in order to draw Line of Sight.

If you would like to refute these points, please include relevant RAW and page locations so that I can confirm what you are saying.

On a more serious note

U02dah4 wrote:
Well I have given you many opportunities Johnny to come up with a contradictory raw answer i read your post and so far you haven't yet. Until you do or someone else does I'm not going to agree it's confusing. Also you have failed to demonstrate anything was unintended just that you don't like it.

As to korbes love the grade A trolling not being on the battlefield does not make you everywhere at once this means you confuse valid selection with ridiculous outcomes that is not my logic at all.

not being on the battlefield you cannot measure LoS. There are no units within range as you are not on the battlefield and cannot measure range. So yes in the shooting phase you can select a unit off the field to shoot however you can't shoot at anything same as charge phase you cannot charge it.

In the movement phase you can't physically move as you are not deployed so hypothetically you move within the teleportarium but it has zero game impact.

As to selecting a psyker short answer yes you could cast a psychic power however no Los rules out 90% of psychic powers and most of the rest are self buffs and they have 0 impact on a game because they dissappear before your deployed I suppose it could impact the game if you perils of the warped but I doubt your opponent will care if you kill yourself.

I apply the logic saying you can select all those things but there are clear rules saying you have to measure range and Los to do so and your ignoring them that is not grounded in rules or logic

Actually BCB did point out something that seems to be glossed over - the Murder Sword

Page 162 Codex: Heretic Astartes wrote:
Abilities: At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn has begun, you must nominate one enemy CHARACTER to be the target of the bearer of the Murder Sword (this can be a character that is not yet set up on the battlefield). Remember to tell your opponent which character you have nominated.[...]

If by RAW they felt they have to mention that it will affect someone not yet set up on the battlefield, then by that convention any omission of mentioning it would mean that you can't use it to affect someone not yet set up on the battlefield. Yes, it's reading into things to make an interpretation there, but it certainly provides a precedent on how the rule needs to be worded.

But DoctorTom, Yakface said I was wrong, therefore I am wrong!

U02dah4 wrote:
We are not saying it's on the board we are saying that not being on the board doesn't prevent it being targeted. Embarked stuff is a different case entirely.

So then if someone does have a strategy that can effect your models it's OK for them to pick models that are in reserve or off the table for some reason other than being embarked.

And do you understand how dumb it sounds to say, "It's not on the board but it's in play."? If it's not on the board it's not in play is a pretty basic tenet of most games.

Unless he's wrong about you being wrong.

It's not a clear cut RAW answer, but it's not a clear cut RAW answer that you do affect them off the board, and something in the rules to use as precedence certainly helps indicate which interpretation is valid.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
We are not saying it's on the board we are saying that not being on the board doesn't prevent it being targeted. Embarked stuff is a different case entirely.

So then if someone does have a strategy that can effect your models it's OK for them to pick models that are in reserve or off the table for some reason other than being embarked.

And do you understand how dumb it sounds to say, "It's not on the board but it's in play."? If it's not on the board it's not in play is a pretty basic tenet of most games.

It depends thats more grey you do what it says on the strategem if it says select a grey knight unit and your opponents grey knights and you really want to buff then go ahead I would say raw according to the rules there's nothing wrong with that however designers commentary says


Q. Can I use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to re-roll
a dice roll made by my opponent?
A. No.
Note that the rules assume that a player always rolls their own
dice (instead of asking their opponent, for example, to roll hit
rolls, saving throws, etc. on their behalf). That being the case,
you can only use the above-mentioned Stratagem to affect dice
rolls you make, and not those made by your opponent.

So there is a valid RaI that you cannot effect your opponent


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the () on murdersword anything within them is clarification only it has no bearing on anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
But DoctorTom, Yakface said I was wrong, therefore I am wrong!

No he put forward a coherent rules based argument that highlighted the flaws in yours which you could not disprove

 doctortom wrote:
Unless he's wrong about you being wrong.

It's not a clear cut RAW answer, but it's not a clear cut RAW answer that you do affect them off the board, and something in the rules to use as precedence certainly helps indicate which interpretation is valid.

Well, it would except GW botches writing this kinda stuff too much. Look at FnP abilities. The Avatar of Khaine's SPECIFICALLY says it can be used against Mortal Wounds, but other versions did not. We actually used to debate on here if that mattered. Ultimately, GW said it didn't in a FAQ and they all work on mortal wounds. So specifically mentioning that on the Murder Sword doesn't help us much.

Audustum wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Unless he's wrong about you being wrong.

It's not a clear cut RAW answer, but it's not a clear cut RAW answer that you do affect them off the board, and something in the rules to use as precedence certainly helps indicate which interpretation is valid.

Well, it would except GW botches writing this kinda stuff too much. Look at FnP abilities. The Avatar of Khaine's SPECIFICALLY says it can be used against Mortal Wounds, but other versions did not. We actually used to debate on here if that mattered. Ultimately, GW said it didn't in a FAQ and they all work on mortal wounds. So specifically mentioning that on the Murder Sword doesn't help us much.

It's almost like the FAQ supersedes RaW? After all they have made several special snowflake rulings that contradict RaW (Pask Orders and Red Grail are two that come to mind).

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Unless he's wrong about you being wrong.

It's not a clear cut RAW answer, but it's not a clear cut RAW answer that you do affect them off the board, and something in the rules to use as precedence certainly helps indicate which interpretation is valid.

Well, it would except GW botches writing this kinda stuff too much. Look at FnP abilities. The Avatar of Khaine's SPECIFICALLY says it can be used against Mortal Wounds, but other versions did not. We actually used to debate on here if that mattered. Ultimately, GW said it didn't in a FAQ and they all work on mortal wounds. So specifically mentioning that on the Murder Sword doesn't help us much.

It's almost like the FAQ supersedes RaW? After all they have made several special snowflake rulings that contradict RaW (Pask Orders and Red Grail are two that come to mind).

Yeah, but we're not arguing Murder Sword's RAW, we're talking about whether you can use it's explicit wording as RAI. Obviously, we can't because it sure as heck didn't matter for the FnP issue.

Faq to GW is part of Raw even when it contradicts BRB and no you can't use it as rai and no you shouldn't use rai in the first instance.

U02dah4 wrote:
Well I have given you many opportunities Johnny to come up with a contradictory raw answer i read your post and so far you haven't yet. Until you do or someone else does I'm not going to agree it's confusing. Also you have failed to demonstrate anything was unintended just that you don't like it.

As to korbes love the grade A trolling not being on the battlefield does not make you everywhere at once this means you confuse valid selection with ridiculous outcomes that is not my logic at all.

not being on the battlefield you cannot measure LoS. There are no units within range as you are not on the battlefield and cannot measure range. So yes in the shooting phase you can select a unit off the field to shoot however you can't shoot at anything same as charge phase you cannot charge it.

In the movement phase you can't physically move as you are not deployed so hypothetically you move within the teleportarium but it has zero game impact.

As to selecting a psyker short answer yes you could cast a psychic power however no Los rules out 90% of psychic powers and most of the rest are self buffs and they have 0 impact on a game because they dissappear before your deployed I suppose it could impact the game if you perils of the warped but I doubt your opponent will care if you kill yourself.

I apply the logic saying you can select all those things but there are clear rules saying you have to measure range and Los to do so and your ignoring them that is not grounded in rules or logic

You're still trying to argue RAW vs HIWPI. Thanks for my 'many opportunities' but I'm not interested in engaging in your RAW views as to me they make no sense. Being literal to the point of absurdity does not a fun game make. I won't continue to argue, I've outlined what I think should be done to patch an unintended hole in the rule. You want to cast psychic powers from planet to orbit. That's fine... you do you.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Well I have given you many opportunities Johnny to come up with a contradictory raw answer i read your post and so far you haven't yet. Until you do or someone else does I'm not going to agree it's confusing. Also you have failed to demonstrate anything was unintended just that you don't like it.

As to korbes love the grade A trolling not being on the battlefield does not make you everywhere at once this means you confuse valid selection with ridiculous outcomes that is not my logic at all.

not being on the battlefield you cannot measure LoS. There are no units within range as you are not on the battlefield and cannot measure range. So yes in the shooting phase you can select a unit off the field to shoot however you can't shoot at anything same as charge phase you cannot charge it.

In the movement phase you can't physically move as you are not deployed so hypothetically you move within the teleportarium but it has zero game impact.

As to selecting a psyker short answer yes you could cast a psychic power however no Los rules out 90% of psychic powers and most of the rest are self buffs and they have 0 impact on a game because they dissappear before your deployed I suppose it could impact the game if you perils of the warped but I doubt your opponent will care if you kill yourself.

I apply the logic saying you can select all those things but there are clear rules saying you have to measure range and Los to do so and your ignoring them that is not grounded in rules or logic

You're still trying to argue RAW vs HIWPI. Thanks for my 'many opportunities' but I'm not interested in engaging in your RAW views as to me they make no sense. Being literal to the point of absurdity does not a fun game make. I won't continue to argue, I've outlined what I think should be done to patch an unintended hole in the rule. You want to cast psychic powers from planet to orbit. That's fine... you do you.

To be fair, I think the point of this thread was to discuss RAW.

Irrelevant. The RAW has a gap, so you can discuss HYWPI or happily cast powers into orbit, whatever you and your opponent agree on. Neither is invalid to play or to discuss here.

This is a rules thread its purpose is to discuss the Raw (objective) and to try to establish what the RaW is in complex situations

You only bring RaI into if Raw literally doesn't work and that doesn't mean I don't like it (opinion subjective) or i dont think its meant to work that way (opinion subjective) or I have this over rule that is unrelated to the situation and infer a paralel(opinion subjective) and so far that has yet to be established. Even then you follow RaW up to the point it becomes impossible to implement.

Everytime someone says don't use a Raw argument vs a RaI they have it back to front. RaW supercedes RaI

Don't use a RaI vs Raw because as long as there is a Raw argument even if you don't think it's supposed to work that way the RaI argument is irrelevant.

So people arguing RaI show a rule citing page number proving you cannot target a unit in reserves (no opinion/intent/common sense arguments we haven't got to that yet) if you cannot do that the raw still works no hole so we ignore RaI.

It's not irrelevant to discuss RAI. RAI can make the game work vs broken RAW adherence. Look at BCB's sig if you want to see why RAW All The Time means the game is functionally unplayable - I kinda hate that list of silly wording nitpicks but go play byvthem literally if you want. Absolutely EVERY 40K player uses RAI to make the game work. So RAI is very relevant and valid for discussion, quit saying it isn't. What is irrelevant is discussing RAI vs RAW. So please stahpppp. Please.