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Fury of Khorne says "Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select [THING] – that unit can immediately fight again"

Honour the Chapter says "Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select [THING] – that unit can immediately fight for a second time."

Now, my question: Can you use the stratagem on a unit that did not fight during that fight phase? If you can, does it actually do anything due to the wording of the final clause?

My reading is that you can select the unit and use the stratagem just fine, the targeting restriction is simply [THING] at the end of the fight phase, but the second clause means if you didn't already fight the stratagem won't do anything.

I ask because it might be useful to use the stratagem to cause a pile in move.

"Again" means again, a second time.

And if a unit is within 1" it can't *not* fight. I don't think what you're looking for is possible.

"again"

I think the key is more so can you activate the unit to begin with, not the use of "again." (Which is likely no, because it would have activated anyway, being within 1" of an enemy). Because remember the relic stratagems, that say you can take an "extra" relic? That was clarified in a FAQ to allow you to take a relic of that faction despite it not containing your warlord (which is what gives you your first free relic) - people argued beforehand that "extra" meant you couldn't use the stratagem on a faction that your warlord wasn't drawn from (as there was nothing for that faction to add the "extra" on to), but GW allowed it.

Jacksmiles wrote:
I think the key is more so can you activate the unit to begin with, not the use of "again." (Which is likely no, because it would have activated anyway, being within 1" of an enemy). Because remember the relic stratagems, that say you can take an "extra" relic? That was clarified in a FAQ to allow you to take a relic of that faction despite it not containing your warlord (which is what gives you your first free relic) - people argued beforehand that "extra" meant you couldn't use the stratagem on a faction that your warlord wasn't drawn from (as there was nothing for that faction to add the "extra" on to), but GW allowed it.

Like them needing a FAQ to clarify that, they'd need a FAQ to clarify this so that the "extra" attack can be done even if there wasn't a "first" attack before that.

 doctortom wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I think the key is more so can you activate the unit to begin with, not the use of "again." (Which is likely no, because it would have activated anyway, being within 1" of an enemy). Because remember the relic stratagems, that say you can take an "extra" relic? That was clarified in a FAQ to allow you to take a relic of that faction despite it not containing your warlord (which is what gives you your first free relic) - people argued beforehand that "extra" meant you couldn't use the stratagem on a faction that your warlord wasn't drawn from (as there was nothing for that faction to add the "extra" on to), but GW allowed it.

Like them needing a FAQ to clarify that, they'd need a FAQ to clarify this so that the "extra" attack can be done even if there wasn't a "first" attack before that.

I don't even know if they need to FAQ this - is there a way for the unit to be eligible without being within 1" of an enemy (and therefore would have attacked a first time because they were eligible)?

The point I was making is that there's precedent of them using "do more of the same" verbiage and allowing it to still happen even when "the same" never happened in the first place - so while I agree that the answer to this question would be "no," I agree for a different reason.

To be fair, that's GW making FAQ rulings that contradict RaW (like Pask orders) so that's par for the course.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I think the key is more so can you activate the unit to begin with, not the use of "again." (Which is likely no, because it would have activated anyway, being within 1" of an enemy). Because remember the relic stratagems, that say you can take an "extra" relic? That was clarified in a FAQ to allow you to take a relic of that faction despite it not containing your warlord (which is what gives you your first free relic) - people argued beforehand that "extra" meant you couldn't use the stratagem on a faction that your warlord wasn't drawn from (as there was nothing for that faction to add the "extra" on to), but GW allowed it.

Like them needing a FAQ to clarify that, they'd need a FAQ to clarify this so that the "extra" attack can be done even if there wasn't a "first" attack before that.

I don't even know if they need to FAQ this - is there a way for the unit to be eligible without being within 1" of an enemy (and therefore would have attacked a first time because they were eligible)?

The point I was making is that there's precedent of them using "do more of the same" verbiage and allowing it to still happen even when "the same" never happened in the first place - so while I agree that the answer to this question would be "no," I agree for a different reason.

Actually, I can think up one way for the unit to be eligible. Say you had a fight with at least 2 units your side, and the unit we're talking about (call it Unit B) using the stratagem on declared a multiple charge against the enemy units C & D, while your unit A has charged along with unit A into unit C. A & B charged into unit C, but D is more than 1" away after the charge. Now, unit A attacks first and wipes out unit C. Your unit B gets to go, but unit C has been wiped out. It had declared a charge as well against unit D. If unit B had gotten an attack in, on unit C and wiped it out, even if it's more than 1" away from unit D it could play the stratagem and pile in on unit D (and attacking if the pile in gets it close enough). The question would be whether it still gets to fight when unit A wiped out the other unit before B got to attack, so that the stratagem would be letting B attack for the first time.

I wouldn't be surprised if they meant to allow it to work in this situation, but it would be best for it to be FAQ'd just to make it clear. Otherwise, if you just go by RAW then you would have had to have attacked a first time in order to attack again (or attack a second time, depending on which army you're playing and which version of the statement they used in the stratagem). I don't think people would have a problem allowing this if you talked it over with your opponent; it probably doesn't come up that often in a game.

Unit D would have to be more than 7" away from Unit B in that case (after the charge), as the stratagem per OP says "fight" again, not "attack" again (does it say "attack"? I'm at work) - so Unit B still gets pile in and consolidate for having charged, as it still gets selected to fight due to having charged (unless I'm forgetting where this was FAQ'd). Unit B gets to move 3" closer to its closest enemy (basically), and then checks for charge targets, then consolidates another 3". If this puts it within 1" of D, the stratagem should be good to go for Unit B, especially since it was selected to fight once before (right?)

Fair point, it would still have gotten to do the pile in and consolidation first time because of the multiple declaration.

Now this is one where the RAW is super clear. "Again"... "for a second time"... both indicate the unit must have already fought. No FAQ needed, no interpreting, no shenanigans.

Okay, a different scenario.

Unit B is already in combat with unit C. The second turn, you declare Unit A is chargeing both unit C and unit D. That drags unit D into the fight potentially. Unit A wipes out unit C before your unit B fights. For this, let's say unit D after its pile ins and such was able to fight unit A that turn, but is still more than 1" away from unit B, Unit B doesn't get to be selected to fight as it's more than 1" away from D (even though A and D are fighting in that fight). We say D's done some damage to A after piling in and fighting, so you really want B to be able to get in on this as well by using the stratagem (and, if you can use it, the pile in more gets you close enough to attack). That would be a (admittedly complicated) scanario where B was involved in a fight that involved another unit but didn't actually get to fight a unit during the fight. The question would be whether B could use the stratagem to pile in and attack D.

 doctortom wrote:
Okay, a different scenario.

Unit B is already in combat with unit C. The second turn, you declare Unit A is chargeing both unit C and unit D. That drags unit D into the fight potentially. Unit A wipes out unit C before your unit B fights. For this, let's say unit D after its pile ins and such was able to fight unit A that turn, but is still more than 1" away from unit B, Unit B doesn't get to be selected to fight as it's more than 1" away from D (even though A and D are fighting in that fight). We say D's done some damage to A after piling in and fighting, so you really want B to be able to get in on this as well by using the stratagem (and, if you can use it, the pile in more gets you close enough to attack). That would be a (admittedly complicated) scanario where B was involved in a fight that involved another unit but didn't actually get to fight a unit during the fight. The question would be whether B could use the stratagem to pile in and attack D.

And in that case, the reason for the "no" would be that it's not within 1" of an enemy when you go to activate it. It didn't charge, so it can't be auto-activated for movement. Again, it supports my reasoning of "it's not because it didn't fight once, but it's because it's not eligible to fight at all." Because units can become eligible to fight through the pile-ins and consolidations of enemy units getting closer to them, and they can become ineligible to fight through using other friendly units to kill models near to them, taking them out of 1" of enemies.

Unit B was never actually involved in a fight, it was just near enough to be selected until it wasn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Now this is one where the RAW is super clear. "Again"... "for a second time"... both indicate the unit must have already fought. No FAQ needed, no interpreting, no shenanigans.

I guess I can agree with it on the one that says "for a second time"

Again I'll point to the precedent of "extra" regarding the relic stratagems as far as the stratagem that only says "again," though.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Okay, a different scenario.

Unit B is already in combat with unit C. The second turn, you declare Unit A is chargeing both unit C and unit D. That drags unit D into the fight potentially. Unit A wipes out unit C before your unit B fights. For this, let's say unit D after its pile ins and such was able to fight unit A that turn, but is still more than 1" away from unit B, Unit B doesn't get to be selected to fight as it's more than 1" away from D (even though A and D are fighting in that fight). We say D's done some damage to A after piling in and fighting, so you really want B to be able to get in on this as well by using the stratagem (and, if you can use it, the pile in more gets you close enough to attack). That would be a (admittedly complicated) scanario where B was involved in a fight that involved another unit but didn't actually get to fight a unit during the fight. The question would be whether B could use the stratagem to pile in and attack D.

And in that case, the reason for the "no" would be that it's not within 1" of an enemy when you go to activate it. It didn't charge, so it can't be auto-activated for movement. Again, it supports my reasoning of "it's not because it didn't fight once, but it's because it's not eligible to fight at all." Because units can become eligible to fight through the pile-ins and consolidations of enemy units getting closer to them, and they can become ineligible to fight through using other friendly units to kill models near to them, taking them out of 1" of enemies.

Unit B was never actually involved in a fight, it was just near enough to be selected until it wasn't.

Okay, I'm good with that. I'm just trying to figure out if there's some scenario where it didn't get to fight the first time where you'd get to activate the stratagem. It's as much an intellectual challenge as anything.

Last attempt. A declares a charge on both C and D. B declares a charge on C but doesn't on D. D is not within 1" of B when the charges are completed. A wipes out C before B gets to go. B doesn't have a unit within 1", so it can't be activated. Now, D gets to go after that and piles in, and with the pile in gets some models within 1" of both A & B. Now, you have B not fighting once but having a unit within 1" at the time you'd like to use the stratagem. You can't attack because you didn't declare the charge, but the restriction is on not making an attack, not against being activated. If you can use the stratagem on B, then you could get a pile in move even (step 2) even if you're not allowed to choose anybody in unit D to attack (step 3). It's not eligible to make attacks, but they don't put a prohibition against making a pile in against a unit you haven't charged.

I don't see a scenario though where you'd actually get to make attacks without having been activated once before.

Yeah I figured it was more an exercise than anything. But in this last one, B does still get to activate that first time because it charged - even though its charge target died before it activated (I swear this was in an FAQ but I don't see it now, am I mistaken?) - so it would do the pile in, have no targets for attacks, then consolidate. So using the stratagem would activate it a second time, but still allow no attacks.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Okay, a different scenario.

Unit B is already in combat with unit C. The second turn, you declare Unit A is chargeing both unit C and unit D. That drags unit D into the fight potentially. Unit A wipes out unit C before your unit B fights. For this, let's say unit D after its pile ins and such was able to fight unit A that turn, but is still more than 1" away from unit B, Unit B doesn't get to be selected to fight as it's more than 1" away from D (even though A and D are fighting in that fight). We say D's done some damage to A after piling in and fighting, so you really want B to be able to get in on this as well by using the stratagem (and, if you can use it, the pile in more gets you close enough to attack). That would be a (admittedly complicated) scanario where B was involved in a fight that involved another unit but didn't actually get to fight a unit during the fight. The question would be whether B could use the stratagem to pile in and attack D.

And in that case, the reason for the "no" would be that it's not within 1" of an enemy when you go to activate it. It didn't charge, so it can't be auto-activated for movement. Again, it supports my reasoning of "it's not because it didn't fight once, but it's because it's not eligible to fight at all." Because units can become eligible to fight through the pile-ins and consolidations of enemy units getting closer to them, and they can become ineligible to fight through using other friendly units to kill models near to them, taking them out of 1" of enemies.

Unit B was never actually involved in a fight, it was just near enough to be selected until it wasn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Now this is one where the RAW is super clear. "Again"... "for a second time"... both indicate the unit must have already fought. No FAQ needed, no interpreting, no shenanigans.

I guess I can agree with it on the one that says "for a second time"

Again I'll point to the precedent of "extra" regarding the relic stratagems as far as the stratagem that only says "again," though.

'Again' literally means 'for a second time'.

Good point, so we still haven't figured out a way for it to be eligible for a second activation where it wasn't eligible for activation the first time.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Okay, a different scenario.

Unit B is already in combat with unit C. The second turn, you declare Unit A is chargeing both unit C and unit D. That drags unit D into the fight potentially. Unit A wipes out unit C before your unit B fights. For this, let's say unit D after its pile ins and such was able to fight unit A that turn, but is still more than 1" away from unit B, Unit B doesn't get to be selected to fight as it's more than 1" away from D (even though A and D are fighting in that fight). We say D's done some damage to A after piling in and fighting, so you really want B to be able to get in on this as well by using the stratagem (and, if you can use it, the pile in more gets you close enough to attack). That would be a (admittedly complicated) scanario where B was involved in a fight that involved another unit but didn't actually get to fight a unit during the fight. The question would be whether B could use the stratagem to pile in and attack D.

And in that case, the reason for the "no" would be that it's not within 1" of an enemy when you go to activate it. It didn't charge, so it can't be auto-activated for movement. Again, it supports my reasoning of "it's not because it didn't fight once, but it's because it's not eligible to fight at all." Because units can become eligible to fight through the pile-ins and consolidations of enemy units getting closer to them, and they can become ineligible to fight through using other friendly units to kill models near to them, taking them out of 1" of enemies.

Unit B was never actually involved in a fight, it was just near enough to be selected until it wasn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Now this is one where the RAW is super clear. "Again"... "for a second time"... both indicate the unit must have already fought. No FAQ needed, no interpreting, no shenanigans.

I guess I can agree with it on the one that says "for a second time"

Again I'll point to the precedent of "extra" regarding the relic stratagems as far as the stratagem that only says "again," though.

'Again' literally means 'for a second time'.

Or third or fourth.

"Extra" literally means that you already have something and are getting more of it. Yet we are told we can have "extra" relics without needing the first one (precedent). So it looks like real-world definitions aren't always rules definitions. I think this part of the conversation is going around in circles though. To reiterate: I agree with your conclusion, but not how you got there.

EDIT: I should actually say "I'm not completely sold on how you're getting there, because we have precedent that could allow it otherwise." I don't fully disagree 100%