Ranking Orkz

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**Kiarn**

Until all the codex's are out this is a comparison of apples and oranges

**Jidmah**

Nubgan wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Nubgan wrote:
I don't think all the -1 to hit garbage floating round has helped Orcs a lot. I think if they had a rule that made them ignore it (especially with shooting) they would improve vastly. Its not like their shooting is fantastic anyway, but their more specialised units that carry the fancy guns wouldn't be a complete waste of points to field.

Actually, I have been thinking about this a lot. A stratagem for -1 cp that lets you ignore all modifiers to shooting for one unit would probably do the trick. It takes a lot of power from your opponent when they have always consider that their wraithfigher or advancing transport might get shot by a unit of lootaz or tankbustaz unhindered.

Its not really unhindered, its an Ork shooting remember, that's hindrance enough without modifiers XD

You obviously have never been on the receiving end of a mob of 15 lootaz rolling a 3 for shots.

**Kap'n Krump**

Glane wrote:

The biggest problem for Orks (aside from gross overpricing in the index) is 8th itself. Most of the changes in 8th hurt Orks or benefited others far more. A lot of people saw that initiative was being removed and jumped to saying Orks would be amazing now, and yeah, removing initiative was a big boost for Orks. But that was immediately counterbalanced by changes that hurt Orks badly.

- Retreat from close combat. Easily the change that hurts Orks the most. This one hits all close combat armies hard, but Orks especially so because we lack survivability and spike killing power. Elite close combat units can deal with this both by being survivable and by straight up murdering anything they touch. Orks tend to kill more by attrition and wearing units down. So having a unit just waltz away leaving our Boyz in rapid-fire range of half an army is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, and a big reason why you just see Boyz spam in 8th; you need to just keep throwing bodies into the fire just to keep even.

- Blast changes. Killed every blast weapon in the Ork codex. Previously these were some of our best weapons since they were much less affected by our abysmal BS. Now they're utterly worthless; a Shokk Attack Gun, on average, hits once per turn.

- Twin-linking: This didn't hurt Orks directly since Orks did get a slight increase in firepower from this change. But it benefited other armies immensely, who saw a huge increase in firepower. So now we had to face even more dakka coming our way, whilst at the same time we lost our main source of survivability...

- Cover. Cover both became much harder for Orks to get (whole unit must be on the terrain piece and Orks tend to run large squads to negate our low Leadership) and provided the least benefit, since +1 to an average armour save of 6+ means very little, doubly so when any weapon with an AP value can just strip it away.

I could not agree more. It's because of these reasons that I'm holding very little hope for the ork codex - the base rules are intrinsically disadvantageous to orks, and that can't easily, or fairly, be fixed by any one codex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, bless you whoever ranked orks #1. You're a true believer.

I mean, you're insane, but you're a saint for believing.

**Marmatag**

So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

**deviantduck**

Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

**warhead01**

deviantduck wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

Not sure if your being sarcastic or not. they're not unplayable.

**Tyel**

I think your tiers are far too small in a game with so many factions and soups.

The Ork index has many garbage units. Internal balance is rubbish. It does however have a list which is performing well in many tournaments. Not amazingly - not enough to win - but consistently better than say Necrons.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

deviantduck wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

To be fair Green Tide has been one of standard ways to play Orks for a long time. It hasn't been a good way to play in every edition but it has been an established a fluffy build since forever.

I don't want Orks to be monobuild. I want Speed Freaks and Kan Wall/Dread Mob to be good along with Green Tide (as well as somewhat less common builds like Battlewagon Blitz). To keep things in perspective, though, I'd guess that most long-time Ork players have lots of Boyz lying around already and Green Tide is a fluffy way to play, unlike current Tau commander spam or Tyranid flyrant spam from 7th.

**SemperMortis**

warhead01 wrote:
deviantduck wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

Not sure if your being sarcastic or not. they're not unplayable.

You have boyz, stormboyz, Kommandos, weirdboy as your good units, not OP by very good. Then you have your meh units like warboss(whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, Ghaz whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, big mek whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, painboy whose sole purpose is to buff boyz and banner Nob whose sole purpose is to buff boyz. They are decent units, possible to use in a competitive environment and not be starting at a disadvantage. Then you have Mek guns, big gunz, grotz and tankbustas who are ok to play with but you would be better off taking more boyz instead. Then you have everything else in the codex which ranges from fluffy and fun but uncompetitive to utter rubbish.

Dakkajet, burna bommer, blitz bommer, waszbom, deft kopta, burnas, flash gitz, mega nobz, nobz, bike nobz, warbikerz,buggies, trakkz, trukkz, skorchas, Battlewagon, killakanz, deff dreadz, morkanaut, gorkanaut, stompa, lootas and our plethora of special characters. So yeah, most of the index is unplayable in a competitive environment, at least if your intent is to win.

**Melissia**

Bottom tier, definitely. They have the one list that might work kinda if you get lucky, and that's about it. And even that build, most of the time top tier armies-- asscannon razorback spam, for example-- will tear it to shreds with ease.

**Marmatag**

Melissia wrote:
Bottom tier, definitely. They have the one list that might work kinda if you get lucky, and that's about it. And even that build, most of the time top tier armies-- asscannon razorback spam, for example-- will tear it to shreds with ease.

This is patently false, asscannon razorback spam is (1) not a top build anymore, and (2) Orks did better than this build at the SoCal open for a reason. There are far more lethal shooting armies than Space Marines. Space marines are not the worst matchup for Orks. Just another day, another dakka person hating on Space Marines for seriously no reason.

**tneva82**

SemperMortis wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
deviantduck wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

Not sure if your being sarcastic or not. they're not unplayable.

You have boyz, stormboyz, Kommandos, weirdboy as your good units, not OP by very good. Then you have your meh units like warboss(whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, Ghaz whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, big mek whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, painboy whose sole purpose is to buff boyz and banner Nob whose sole purpose is to buff boyz. They are decent units, possible to use in a competitive environment and not be starting at a disadvantage. Then you have Mek guns, big gunz, grotz and tankbustas who are ok to play with but you would be better off taking more boyz instead. Then you have everything else in the codex which ranges from fluffy and fun but uncompetitive to utter rubbish.

Dakkajet, burna bommer, blitz bommer, waszbom, deft kopta, burnas, flash gitz, mega nobz, nobz, bike nobz, warbikerz,buggies, trakkz, trukkz, skorchas, Battlewagon, killakanz, deff dreadz, morkanaut, gorkanaut, stompa, lootas and our plethora of special characters. So yeah, most of the index is unplayable in a competitive environment, at least if your intent is to win.

To be fair though every codex has few units competive armies spam and rest are basically ignored. Nothing surprising there. Orks are doing fairly well on tournaments. Not winning but frankly non-soup armies are always going to struggle on that area. But hardly unplayable.

**deviantduck**

Marmatag wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Bottom tier, definitely. They have the one list that might work kinda if you get lucky, and that's about it. And even that build, most of the time top tier armies-- asscannon razorback spam, for example-- will tear it to shreds with ease.

This is patently false, asscannon razorback spam is (1) not a top build anymore, and (2) Orks did better than this build at the SoCal open for a reason. There are far more lethal shooting armies than Space Marines. Space marines are not the worst matchup for Orks. Just another day, another dakka person hating on Space Marines for seriously no reason.

1. Melissia saying that Space Marines being better than Orks is hating on Space Marines?
2. The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

**Marmatag**

deviantduck wrote:
The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

In tournaments, this is not the order.

We don't have Tyranid data, but pre-codex they were far worse than Orks. It stands to reason they're better now with a codex. Guillimarines finished behind Orks in the last major GT. So...

And suggesting that asscannon razorback spam is a "top tier" army is ridiculous, and she's doing it for a very specific reason. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

**pismakron**

The Ork greentide list is pretty strong, so it is not in any way "unplayable" if by that is meant "not able to win". A fine tuned Ork list with 210 boyz will do well against most opponents, provided you don't play the "Eternal War" missions.

But for many Ork players the Green tide is unplayable, simply because you need a 200+ model army, and you need to move every model up to six times per battle round (move, charge, 2x pile-in 2x consolidate). And this is absolutely necessary in order to play it well, and it kind of precludes you from using movement trays.

The upside is, that tournaments has universally been adopting progressive scoring, in part because games never reach turn 4 in 2 hour slot.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

I enjoy playing Green Tide and I have the models to do it, but I'd never play it in a tournament setting simply because I can't move models and roll dice fast enough to be fair to my opponent.

I'm working on a 3x Kill Tank list now, but I think that Chapter Approved and the codex will probably change things enough that it's not worth getting hung up on a specific list yet.

**pismakron**

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I enjoy playing Green Tide and I have the models to do it, but I'd never play it in a tournament setting simply because I can't move models and roll dice fast enough to be fair to my opponent.

I'm working on a 3x Kill Tank list now, but I think that Chapter Approved and the codex will probably change things enough that it's not worth getting hung up on a specific list yet.

I agree, Orks will be fine. Praise be Gork and Mork that we are not Tau.

**CovenantGuardian**

Your poll options is quite biased, so 75% of all armies is in garbage tier? GW lists around 30 army factions on their site..

**hollow one**

Haha, garbage teir = an effective codex army that outperforms most other single faction lists. Okay buddy.

Poor internal balance does not equate to poor tournament performance. Semper, your response options are biased and this thread is a joke. You yourself have said in previous threads that you win every tournament you attend with your kommando Ork army.

edit: here I'll help you make an unbiased teir list.
There's what, approximately 18 factions that i just copy pasted from wiki:

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons
Dark Eldar
Craftworld Eldar
Eldar Harlequins
Necrons
Orks
Tau Empire
Tyranids
Genestealer Cults
Space Marines
Astra Militarum
Militarum Tempestus
Inquisition
Adepta Sororitas
Imperial Knights
Skitarii
Cult Mechanicus

this does not include many of the subfactions, which there are extra, so lets add a modest 5 total (that wouldn't even cover space marines), and maybe an imperial soup and chaos soup list.

God Tier: Top 3
High Tier: 4-7
Medium Tier: 8-11
Low Tier: 12-15
Garbage: 16+

There are a hell of a lot of potential lists out there that you don't even think about because they are so goddamned bad. In the tournament scene you look at the top 8 and think that is the entire field, but it's not, there are heaps of catastrophic armies out there doing very poorly. So many imperial lists are forced to resort to other codexes and make soup lists because they CAN NOT make a tournament performing army. Orkz however, consistently produce results, and they do it on their own without a codex. Sure they are not god/high teir, but they do well.

**Melissia**

deviantduck wrote:
1. Melissia saying that Space Marines being better than Orks is hating on Space Marines?

Yeah, I don't get it either, at this point I'm resigned to the fact that no matter what I do, I hate marines. Which must be why I collect, paint, and play them.

Basically someone saying that is just evidence they don't have a point and probably never will.

**hollow one**

Just to re-iterate my previous point, here is a nice breakdown of a recent tournament. Sorting army types by battlepoint averages.

http://fieldoffiregaming.com/best-armies-warzone-atlanta/

You'll find that Orkz, as I suggested earlier, fit cleanly in middle teir, just below the average. There just happen to be 22 unique army categories as organised by this article author, so I was off a little when it comes to pure tournament representation (by 3).

**deviantduck**

Marmatag wrote:
deviantduck wrote:
The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

In tournaments, this is not the order.

We don't have Tyranid data, but pre-codex they were far worse than Orks. It stands to reason they're better now with a codex. Guillimarines finished behind Orks in the last major GT. So...

And suggesting that asscannon razorback spam is a "top tier" army is ridiculous, and she's doing it for a very specific reason. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

If you're referring warzone atlanta, then, thanks to VarianceHammer's diligence, we can see Chaos Demons, Chaos, Eldar, Space Marines, SoB, IG, and Yanarri all consistently did better as a faction, even though an Ork player may have taken 2nd place.

**Marmatag**

deviantduck wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
deviantduck wrote:
The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

In tournaments, this is not the order.

We don't have Tyranid data, but pre-codex they were far worse than Orks. It stands to reason they're better now with a codex. Guillimarines finished behind Orks in the last major GT. So...

And suggesting that asscannon razorback spam is a "top tier" army is ridiculous, and she's doing it for a very specific reason. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

If you're referring warzone atlanta, then, thanks to VarianceHammer's diligence, we can see Chaos Demons, Chaos, Eldar, Space Marines, SoB, IG, and Yanarri all consistently did better as a faction, even though an Ork player may have taken 2nd place.

Yeah but that's not a good representation, because you get such a mixed bag at every event. Blood Angels scored a high average because the one (or two? whatever) guy who brought them did well.

Fact of the matter is, the power curve in 8th has been flatted in a lot of respects. The fact that Orks have a build capable of finishing in the top 3 in a tournament immediately makes them better than a LOT of factions, period, end of story. And it's not an outlier data point for Orks, whereas it IS for Blood Angels. In the current meta, Orks have been doing consistently well in big events. This is the second major even in a row (that i'm aware of at least) wherein Orks finished ahead of Ultramarines, considered the "best" space marine faction. Not saying Space Marines are the yardstick for balance - they're not - they're too weak, Orks *should* be better than them - but to say Orks are anything less than tier 3 just isn't true. And they're doing this without a codex.

You cannot put Orks even remotely close to Necrons, for example. Necrons simply do not have a build capable of reaching this high. To date, neither have Tyranids.

It really is wholly unfair to say that Orks are this totally inferior army. They're an index army, so naturally somewhat underpowered, that is still flatly better in the current meta than a lot of armies. And, over time, it's looking like they're better than Codex Space Marines. That shouldn't matter since SM are garbage, but most people believe they're the darlings of GW, so it should appease you even if it doesn't help the Ork faction.

**deviantduck**

I'm only arguing the rankings for the poll in this thread. Orks are not a top 7 team, therefore bottom tier according to this thread.

**Marmatag**

deviantduck wrote:
I'm only arguing the rankings for the poll in this thread. Orks are not a top 7 team, therefore bottom tier according to this thread.

But they're doing better than armies that you listed, and i suppose you're also not allowing for ties.

**SemperMortis**

While there are 18 factions, a fair amount of them are sub factions that weren't originally intended to be played independently of another host army. Inquisition, Knights, Tempestus, GSC, cult/skit and harlequins were originally meant to add flavor to other factions. Some didn't even have legal standalone lists for a long time.

So let's put that down right away. Secondly, generally speaking Orkz aren't finishing top in major tournaments. So far we have 1 example of an Ork list doing well in a major tournament. The last time I checked, the highest Ranked ITC Ork player was at something like 103rd place.

Next, we have 1 build that is competitive. I haven't had a chance to look over the Atlanta Ork list yet but it apparently featured another Squiggoth, so add that to the list of good units.

**Kap'n Krump**

Marmatag wrote:
. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

I'm not sure about meta armies, but orks damn sure still fear that, since our best unit are boyz and assbacks are basically built to eliminate boyz. last game I played against marines I lost 50 boyz to basically 2 assbacks and 1 storm raven, who had KFF and painboy saves to boot. And that's hardly a spam list.

A true assback spam is basically unbeatable to me, unless I just get stupid lucky with da jump assaults.

And I'm not much for tournaments or competitive play, but all I know is that I've seen and experienced. And I have no idea how to deal with assault cannon + lascannon spam. Assault cannons annihilate my infantry, and lascannons evaporate anything more valuable than a boy, assuming I'm stupid enough to actually bring anything that fits that description.

**Marmatag**

SemperMortis wrote:
While there are 18 factions, a fair amount of them are sub factions that weren't originally intended to be played independently of another host army. Inquisition, Knights, Tempestus, GSC, cult/skit and harlequins were originally meant to add flavor to other factions. Some didn't even have legal standalone lists for a long time.

So let's put that down right away. Secondly, generally speaking Orkz aren't finishing top in major tournaments. So far we have 1 example of an Ork list doing well in a major tournament. The last time I checked, the highest Ranked ITC Ork player was at something like 103rd place.

Next, we have 1 build that is competitive. I haven't had a chance to look over the Atlanta Ork list yet but it apparently featured another Squiggoth, so add that to the list of good units.

They also did well in the SoCal open. Better than Ultramarines and razorback spam. And there are other instances as well throughout 8th.

If you think you have trouble with assback spam, you must have never played meta Astra Militarum. Because Taurox Prime & artillery + plasma will ruin your day a 1000 times worse.

To be clear: i'm not saying Orks don't need a buff. But there are factions that need it way more than Orks.

**Xenomancers**

Orks came in second place at warzone Atlanta. Over 100 players. His list did have a FW squigith though. The core of his army is what I would expect though - commandos - KMC - and slugga boys with a lot of psychics.

**Kap'n Krump**

I was a bit surprised by that warzone Atlanta list, honestly. Had only 60 boyz.

The garg squiggoth isn't surprising, though, that thing is seriously undercosted. It's basically as tough as a stompa for less than half the points, plus it's open-topped, so it's arguably more shooty than a stompa to boot.

Still dies in like 2 turns to a handful of lascannons though. Least it has in my experience.

I aught to try more wierdboyz, I suppose. Though you can't buy them pretty much anywhere.