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I think it will all come down to Klan rulez and strategems.

A +1 to hit with ranged attack for a klan ability would be on top of my wishlist

 adamsouza wrote:
I think it will all come down to Klan rulez and strategems.

A +1 to hit with ranged attack for a klan ability would be on top of my wishlist

And I am willing to bet it comes with massive negatives attached.

It would be interesting if they made the Evil Sunz clan ability only effect vehicles and bikes and the Snakebites ability only effect infantry.

I'm not saying that's definitely what they should do, as I'd like to see Evil Sunz trukk boyz being viable. It would also be cool if GW would be nice to Forge World and future-proof their own book by making the Snakebites clan ability also apply to Monsters and Beasts. This isn't to say that Snakebites have no vehicles, but maybe they could have some sort of special rule where they only advance d3" but get +2 wounds to represent their more basic technology? That would probably take too many words and GW seems to be trying to be brief with their Chapter Tactics equivalents.

If they gave Evil Sunz a bonus to advance and the ability to fall back and still shoot/charge that would be really powerful and work well with a bunch of units, but in some ways I hope they don't do it because it seems like we might see a bunch of Evil Sunz dread mobs haha.

I really feel like this most of the time. I don't understand how one faction can be so poor in comparison to another? It just doesn't make any logical sense! You would think the rule writers would want to make thier faction OP and try to sneak in everything they can! Hell it would mean increased sales as every faction seems powerful in their own way! The fact orks and several other factions have gone on over 5+ years like this is baffling! Any other design team woukf be fired or moved restricted to what they do best while a new team would be brought in. If I was in charge I would have a team of like 3-5 people per codex (they can mix between codecies) and based on passionate players who know the lore and the game (obviously with qualifications as well). Then I would have a tester team who would cut out the terrible OP ideas and send them back to be cut down. Honestly, they've had plenty of years to do this by now... you could create a solid game that would have both the meta for rich kids to follow and the balance for friendly fun games. Everyone buys models, everyone happy.

However, if we truely felt like gw was screwing orks over then we should vote with our wallets and just not buy orks... My in depth study of the 40k community (from talking to players throughout the world and in person) shows that the only reason gw does this lazy half arsed job is because it's a cheap way to manufacture money from people who believe they're supporting their local gw (when really it doesn't matter how much you spend the design team don't get paid enough to care and the shop workers get barely enough to live... all while the guys at the top get richer). I've even interviewed people from within GW. They told me the conditions in the manufacturing processes is poor and half the team has this cult mentality like they're working in a church (no joke, that's what i was told). If anything we should petition for better pay for these workers and a push away from this cult mentality then we might get better rules. XD

 lolman1c wrote:
I really feel like this most of the time. I don't understand how one faction can be so poor in comparison to another? It just doesn't make any logical sense! You would think the rule writers would want to make thier faction OP and try to sneak in everything they can! Hell it would mean increased sales as every faction seems powerful in their own way!

However, if we truely felt like gw was screwing orks over then we should vote with our wallets and just not buy orks... simple.

GW being GW this would likely have the opposite effect. "Nobody is buying Orks? Don't waste resources supporting them". GW does the opposite to what you think would happen if you don't buy something; they'll focus on what is selling rather than figure out why things don't sell.

I'd like to see an obvious expansion to the range, "savage boyz" and bring some of the old warhammer models in.

Thinking boar riders etc, needs a single new sprue of arms with weapons and a few other bits ala the Tzangors and basically thats the range expanded by a fair bit for no real work

If gw basically gave AOS orcs all 40k ork rules (just make them 5pts orks with no shootas) I would actually waste my money on an entire savage ork army!

I still think it's worth withholding judgement until the codex drops. No need to jump the gun.

I went from very optimistic about the Ork codex to cautiously optimistic after Chapter Approved. I think that all the points changes they made were steps in the right direction. Many didn't go far enough, while a few went too far. I think they really need to change more units than they did, but maybe they were limited for space (but in that case I don't understand their priorities).

So I remain cautiously optimistic until the codex releases. I imagine the codex will have some stinkers, but if they do mostly a good job I'll be cautiously optimistic about them fixing those with FAQs and Chapter Approved 2018. If the Ork codex is pretty garbage* then I'll be pretty pessimistic about them fixing it any time soon, but I'll wait until Chapter Approved 2018 to give them another chance. If it is still messed up I'll write them to let them know I'm going to shifting a lot of my money to 3rd party models and scratch-building, because if I'm only going to be playing super fun casual games anyway I don't really need to worry about proxying and counts-as.

*By garbage I mean really bad, not just mid-tier. Some people seem to think if it's not top-tier it is trash. If all of the codexes are relatively close in power then it's not such a bad deal to even be bottom-tier. To be fair, though, I'm not very competitive and I'd rather have a codex that was super thematic and fun and mid-tier (or even bottom tier) than a top-tier codex that was bland and breaks with the lore.

^ "gw messed up again. I geuss I'll giver them 500 more chances". If we keep using this mentality we'll be waiting forever! It's been god knows how long since the last time orks were worth their weight and we act like this is the first time gw have ignored orks.

 lolman1c wrote:
^ "gw messed up again. I geuss I'll giver them 500 more chances". If we keep using this mentality we'll be waiting forever! It's been god knows how long since the last time orks were worth their weight and we act like this is the first time gw have ignored orks.

I think it's reasonable to give them more of a chance, since they seem to have turned around in so many ways. I think that the problems with Chapter Approved are pretty minor, and while the Index definitely had it's problems it gave us 1.5 good builds and I think we can only expect so much out of the Index. The Index is good for what it is, something to get us by for a short period of time.

So I don't think I'm giving them a ton of chances. I gave them a chance on the Index, and while not amazing it's good for what it is. Chapter Approved was a slight disappointment, but I think a lot of us were expecting too much out of it. Really, the thing that matters is the Codex. Since it is a relatively short time in between the Index and the Codex getting worked up about anything before the the Codex is released doesn't seem very reasonable to me. That's their big chance, and most of what I think we should be judging them on.
If they do a really good job, great.
If they do a mediocre job they can probably fix it with FAQs and Chapter Approved 2018.
If they do a terrible job there's probably no fixing it. That's when we should be up in arms.

leopard wrote:
I'd like to see an obvious expansion to the range, "savage boyz" and bring some of the old warhammer models in.

Thinking boar riders etc, needs a single new sprue of arms with weapons and a few other bits ala the Tzangors and basically thats the range expanded by a fair bit for no real work

Snakebite Boar Boyz used to be a thing.

Unfortunately the Boar Boy sprues are mixed pretty well, with boars, bits of riders and weapons strewn across the sprues. Not even Savage Orc Boar Boyz and regular Orc Boar Boyz share sprues.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:


I think that all the points changes they made were steps in the right direction. Many didn't go far enough, while a few went too far.

I would really like you to explain this one to me. What went "Too far" in your opinion?

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:


I think that all the points changes they made were steps in the right direction. Many didn't go far enough, while a few went too far.

I would really like you to explain this one to me. What went "Too far" in your opinion?

I think that the points hike on the Kill Tank probably went a little too far and the points drop on the Warcopta probably went a little too far. I think they're both closer to where they should be than they were in the FW Index though.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:


I think that all the points changes they made were steps in the right direction. Many didn't go far enough, while a few went too far.

I would really like you to explain this one to me. What went "Too far" in your opinion?

I think that the points hike on the Kill Tank probably went a little too far and the points drop on the Warcopta probably went a little too far. I think they're both closer to where they should be than they were in the FW Index though.

Ok, I just wanted you to clarify. I can agree with the kill Tank, the Warcopta is most likely going to be acceptable because realistically its only marginally better then a Trukk which in my opinion is over priced.

I'm not sure why people would take Deffkoptas instead of Warkoptas after the points drop, but on the other hand Deffkoptas aren't really worth taking anyway.

I use them in fun games because I like them, but even in Power Level terms I don't understand why Deffkoptas are so expensive.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

leopard wrote:
I'd like to see an obvious expansion to the range, "savage boyz" and bring some of the old warhammer models in.

Thinking boar riders etc, needs a single new sprue of arms with weapons and a few other bits ala the Tzangors and basically thats the range expanded by a fair bit for no real work

Snakebite Boar Boyz used to be a thing.

Unfortunately the Boar Boy sprues are mixed pretty well, with boars, bits of riders and weapons strewn across the sprues. Not even Savage Orc Boar Boyz and regular Orc Boar Boyz share sprues.

Pretty much nothing GW does really share sprues. Eldar jetbikes and farseer on jetbike? Completely different sprues.

I think it's partially due to 3d design process. Easier to develop new sprues so if total sprue count would still be about same might just as well go for unique sprues and ensure each sprue is as brimming with parts as possible.

The regular AoS Orcs are pretty interchangeable with 40k Orks. The Savage Orcs/Bonesplittaz definitely look more feral though.

I'm going to give GW a little bit longer to do something with regular AoS Greenskinz. I don't think they will, because I think they want to make units that are more unique to the AoS setting. Eventually if nothing happens I'm going to convert all of my old WHFB Orcs & Goblins to 40k.

Yeah fantasy AOS orcs are ver very similar to 40 ork boyz, I've made 60 boyz out of fantasy orcs since I bought them on ebay for dirt cheap.

Legs, torsos, arms and heads all match perfectly and the fantasy orcs already have choppas and several decent heads, they basically just need the slugga. Or a shoota.

Seems to me Ork vehicle costs are balanced around the KFF. It feels you pay a KFF tax for everything basically. I would prefer the vehicles were much cheaper but the KFF significantly more expensive. Say in the 50-100pt ballpark.

I've been trying to wrap my head around the fact that a Big Trakk with Supa Skorcha costs 163 points and a Hellhound is 101 points. Something is off.

 Weazel wrote:
Seems to me Ork vehicle costs are balanced around the KFF. It feels you pay a KFF tax for everything basically. I would prefer the vehicles were much cheaper but the KFF significantly more expensive. Say in the 50-100pt ballpark.

I've been trying to wrap my head around the fact that a Big Trakk with Supa Skorcha costs 163 points and a Hellhound is 101 points. Something is off.

Cruddace costing at work. This is a notable trend, where he overcosts base units on the assumption they will have said supportpieces. See: 8th ed Empire where basic Empire Swordsmen got more expensive as other similar units got cheaper, since you now could "totally" buff a parent and child detachments or take an (admittedly kitbashable) Hurricanum. The end result was Halberds became the choice unit instead of Swords.

Playing "edition roulette" with "does my army work?" is a good way to sour a playerbase.

I was waiting for the chapter approved changes before I dropped £600 on a new ork army, having seen the laughable job gw has, I will be spending none of it and waiting for the codex, but I'm not holding out hope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was waiting for the chapter approved changes before I dropped £600 on a new ork army, having seen the laughable job gw has, I will be spending none of it and waiting for the codex, but I'm not holding out hope.

There are many rules writers at Games Workshop who have a similar style, and are passionate about the same armies and factions. This crossover has left the studio lacking in diversity of concepts and army interest.

 Weazel wrote:
Seems to me Ork vehicle costs are balanced around the KFF. It feels you pay a KFF tax for everything basically. I would prefer the vehicles were much cheaper but the KFF significantly more expensive. Say in the 50-100pt ballpark.

I've been trying to wrap my head around the fact that a Big Trakk with Supa Skorcha costs 163 points and a Hellhound is 101 points. Something is off.

This is one of the issue I have with Buffs in the game, it makes balancing things extremely difficult. Either things are appropriately costed on their own, or they are appropriately costed when buffed. This works a bit better with things like targeted buffs (psychic powers) because you can reasonably bake the cost of the buff into the buffing unit. With Aura buffs it is much more difficult because the effect buffing multiple units.

The KFF has exactly the same mechanic that it had in previous edtions, I wouldn't call it a "buff".

FNP, ghaz aura, waaagh banner, etc... these are 8th edition's buffs, the KFF is always the same thing.

X helps unit y? It's a buff. Buffs aren"t new 8th ed invention.

Honestly, we need to spam the 40k facebook page with ork memes until they recognise orks and tell us who is writing our codex!
#GreenIsBest #Orksoverbeakies

 lolman1c wrote:
Honestly, we need to spam the 40k facebook page with ork memes until they recognise orks and tell us who is writing our codex!
#GreenIsBest #Orksoverbeakies

You'll trigger them and just end up blocked.

tneva82 wrote:
X helps unit y? It's a buff. Buffs aren"t new 8th ed invention.

Some buffs modify the units profiles. It's completely different than giving cover/invuln to units under the bubble. Basically buffs replaced the bonuses that characters gave to the units they joined, now they cannot join a unit but they give the buffs to units nearby. That's the difference with the previous editions.

SemperMortis wrote:
Sweet!!! Leaked images of chapter approved show Orkz getting massive price cuts across the board!!!! We are finally competitive!!!!!

Just kidding, GW screwed us again.

Well, apart from the kill tank, your first sentence is correct, many things did receive substantial points cuts. And in some fairness, kill tanks were pretty undercosted, though 150 extra was a bit hefty.

For the stratagem, I'm not going to say that it's good, but I will say that for reference, it is objectively better than the similar space marine stratagem. The space marine one is only for imperial fists, only infantry, and only bolters.

The ork one has some utility in things like lootas and flash gitz. I'm not saying it's good, but it is better than what space marines get, which is surprising. I used it a couple times on Saturday, and it helped flash gitz kill a helbrute. For 1 CP, and given our lack of stratagems, it's ok for now, I guess.

But yeah, I will agree that, generally speaking, GW is incredibly bad at writing ork rules.

I think sometimes people look at the number of wounds Ork vehicles have and overestimate how durable they are. I mean, a Battle Wagon isn't that much tougher than a Rhino, depending on whether it had a 'Ard Case and what is shooting at it.