Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lets start this thread with a facepalm and a babyrage screeching about guard.

Conscripts are now 4 ppm per model. *sigh*

Eathsheiker battery now costs 115 ppm... while vanilla basilisk costs 108 ppm with a heavy bolter. (WAT?)

What do you think about CA? What do you like or dislike? And how badly you wanna kiss (or kill) GW game designers? What did your race/army get?

Terrible book with lots of nonsense changes

EricDominus wrote:
Lets start this thread with a facepalm and a babyrage screeching about guard.

Conscripts are now 4 ppm per model. *sigh*

Eathsheiker battery now costs 115 ppm... while vanilla basilisk costs 108 ppm with a heavy bolter. (WAT?)

What do you think about CA? What do you like or dislike? And how badly you wanna kiss (or kill) GW game designers? What did your race/army get?

Mostly it looks like they just picked a handful of stuff people complained about, rolled on some random chart to see what they'd do, then threw darts to pick a couple other things to roll on a different random chart to do different stuff to, and called it good.

I can get upping costs on astropaths and Manticores and whatnot.

I don't understand why Forgefiends and Maulerfiends don't appear to have been helped at all (unless I missed something), or why GW thinks a 12pt discount is going to fix the Defiler. I'm baffled at what GW thinks the rationale for the existence of Conscripts is at this point. Not sure why Ratlings needed a Nerf. Really not sure why the Earthshaker platform needs to cost more than the more resilient, mobile, and Ld immune Basilisk does. The Meltagun change pretty much ensures nobody will take anything but plasma guns on Stormtroopers. Giving the Vanquisher cannon a 5pt price break isn't going to help with the gun is just fundamentally not intelligently designed for its role. They appeared to miss the Exterminator as well despite it being worse in every way than a Battlecannon and yet more expensive. Why on earth Rapiers and Heavy Mortars went *up* I cannot fathom. Krieg infantry all remains overcosted for whatever reason (particularly odd for an army designed around attrition to have overly expensive infantry, having to pay for their Doctrines where other Regiments do not). The Macharius tanks didn't get any love and they're just Leman Russ tanks without Orders and 10 extra wounds for twice or more the price...

GW...you will never change.

Though at least they did appear to change the base price on the Mars Alpha and Annihilator Russ tanks...though I have no idea why the Stygies Vanquisher remains so hilariously expensive for a coax storm bolter...


EDIT: hahaha...the actually nerfed the Twin Heavy Stubber...they increased it to 8pts from 7. That was something they actually felt needed to be called out and changed...I...I don't even

EDIT 2: Holy jeebus, they increased the price on the Salamander Command vehicle by almost 50% to way more than a Hellhound or even a Hydra...it's a Chimera that takes up an Elites slot that can't transport anything with a heavy flamer and heavy bolter that gets gets a scout move and gives a reroll 1's buff to a single vehicle unit within 6". Guess they didn't want to ever sell any of those.

WHY NO TAU OR NECRON CHANGES!?

Deductive reasoning brings me to the obvious conclusion that it means the Tau and Necron codex will be after Daemons but I wanted changes NOW so that when the codex is released in two months I could come on here amd complain about having bought CA and then having it invalidated a month later!

WHY CAN'T GW DOING SILLY THINGS TO JUSTIFY MY ONLINE OUTRAGE!

Honestly though, I'm pretty happy with everything. Army by army:

Grey Knights: I run mostly Termies, they got a decent price drop
Sisters: Love Exorcists, so happy they got a price drop. I didn't run Celestine without the Gemini so no change for me.
IG: I didn't run the things that got increased. Just Dudes and Russes really so s'all good.
Tyranids: Was sick of sick of seeing Malanthropes everywhere so I'm glad I'll be seeing more variety in HQ. Haha, only kidding, Neurothrope nerf in 2018 coming. They're fluffed as being a rare sight yet they're more common in 8th than most other Nids. Hopefully it'll teach people about buying into flavor of the month stuff but I doubt it.
Necrons: New codex soon. Whee.
AdMech: I've just started them and haven't got enough for a standard game size yet but points drops are nice even if it means I have to buy more stuff to get to my groups average game level.
FW: No one here uses FW stuff so whatevs.

I think the big take away from this is that the "new" GW/FW needs to seriously reconsider how they operate. Either they need to improve on planning ahead or introduce a new department specifically aimed at altering printed material for situations like this. Conscripts being nerfed for the 3rd time illustrates a lack of communication, planning & organization internally.

Post 3rd nerf, conscripts are going to be yet another unit in the IG codex that will end up like penal legion, medusas etc. No one will use them because GW nerfed them into the ground & they will just end up being removed entirely from the codex.

Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.

1) I really like the general principle that unit rules and unit costs are decoupled, and that balance changes can be published outside of the main rulebooks.

2) The actual Chapter Approved 2017 book appears to be a particular low effort job. I haven't read it in its entirety, so my opinion might change.

Lol.

Community: "Everything GW puts out is sooooooo unbalanced and broken!! They don't care about tournament players!! They need to get their act together and balance their stuff better!!!'"


GW: "Ok, let's do some minor fig-leaf adjustment to the most obviously bonkers units/combinations:"


Community: "NOOOOO! Everything was perfectly balance all along. Why did you change it??!?!"

 Commissar Benny wrote:
Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.

Was Orks nerfed? Wasn't it just the kill tank?

 Commissar Benny wrote:
I think the big take away from this is that the "new" GW/FW needs to seriously reconsider how they operate. Either they need to improve on planning ahead or introduce a new department specifically aimed at altering printed material for situations like this. Conscripts being nerfed for the 3rd time illustrates a lack of communication, planning & organization internally.

Post 3rd nerf, conscripts are going to be yet another unit in the IG codex that will end up like penal legion, medusas etc. No one will use them because GW nerfed them into the ground & they will just end up being removed entirely from the codex.

Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.

What the actual zog? What was the ork nerf?! I can only assume at this point that they just want to remove orks from the game because of how little they pay attention to us.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Lol.

Community: "Everything GW puts out is sooooooo unbalanced and broken!! They don't care about tournament players!! They need to get their act together and balance their stuff better!!!'"


GW: "Ok, let's do some minor fig-leaf adjustment to the most obviously bonkers units/combinations:"


Community: "NOOOOO! Everything was perfectly balance all along. Why did you change it??!?!"

Literally nobody is saying that. Many people were expecting certain changes. The game is hardly perfectly balanced.

However, many of the changes appear to be either ineffectual or incomprehensible. The changes to a lot of stuff doesn't appear to have any rationale behind them or appear to be grossly disproportionate , or underproportionate.

Wonderwolf wrote:

Community: "NOOOOO! Everything was perfectly balance all along. Why did you change it??!?!"

If anybody had claimed anything like that, you might have a point

all points change on instagram, if anyone has it on pdf let me kno https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

Wonderwolf wrote:
Lol.

Community: "Everything GW puts out is sooooooo unbalanced and broken!! They don't care about tournament players!! They need to get their act together and balance their stuff better!!!'"


GW: "Ok, let's do some minor fig-leaf adjustment to the most obviously bonkers units/combinations:"


Community: "NOOOOO! Everything was perfectly balance all along. Why did you change it??!?!"

Hah. But really Chaper Approve change the unit that work and leave useless unit behide... what we want is useless unit become useable and leave “working” unit alone.

I think in nearly all cases, points can used as the balance-stick. I'm not sure that it was the right choice for conscripts, seeings that they now conflict with guardsmen.

EDIT 2: Holy jeebus, they increased the price on the Salamander Command vehicle by almost 50% to way more than a Hellhound or even a Hydra...it's a Chimera that takes up an Elites slot that can't transport anything with a heavy flamer and heavy bolter that gets gets a scout move and gives a reroll 1's buff to a single vehicle unit within 6". Guess they didn't want to ever sell any of those.

Actually it gives +1 to hit, and that was super cool... until CA.

EricDominus wrote:
EDIT 2: Holy jeebus, they increased the price on the Salamander Command vehicle by almost 50% to way more than a Hellhound or even a Hydra...it's a Chimera that takes up an Elites slot that can't transport anything with a heavy flamer and heavy bolter that gets gets a scout move and gives a reroll 1's buff to a single vehicle unit within 6". Guess they didn't want to ever sell any of those.

They don't want to sell them, the model has been OOP for years.

The point-raise to conscripts is especially puzzling. Clearly conscripts needed some changes originally, but now GW has managed to nerf conscripts into the ground while taking the commissar with them as a collateral casualty.

1. All the titans got DRASTICALLY more expensive - though to be fair someone was smoking something when a Reaver cost 2400 points. 6k For a warlord is about right though :|
2. Autocannons *finally* outperform heavy bolters at killing primaris... by 1 point per. And a mighty *2* points per wound better than Hbolters vs Leman Russ. Is this enough to return the AC back to the Old Ways?
3. Discount melta guns at bs 4 - this might actually be relevant since bs4 for guard is temporary, and it does make melta guns a bit more appealing
4. Manticore is still valid
5. Wyvern is once again getting spanked for some reason
6. 46 points for full-fat smite is perfectly acceptable
7. I've no problem with the salamander price bump; Cadian Stormlord with BS2 on a pre-wounded target *should* cost Silly Points, esp combined with a Trojan's reroll. Also; they don't sell Salamander Tanks any more.
8. Hellstrikes got +10 pts, meaning they'll be seen on Valkyries even less, if ever.
9. The Thunderer *still* costs more than a LR Demolisher.

 malamis wrote:
Cadian Stormlord with BS2 on a pre-wounded target *should* cost Silly Points, esp combined with a Trojan's reroll.

It already did, once you count the cost of all those support units you're dedicating to getting that firepower. That's the Stormlord itself, a Salamander, a Trojan, burning the CP for the stratagem, and whatever you pay for that additional unit that can consistently inflict a wound but not do so much damage that the Stormlord is overkill. That's the "all your eggs in one basket" sort of list that seems scary on paper, but ends up being too much of an investment in a real game. And if you're willing to dump that many points into one giant super-unit then the Salamander change isn't going to make a meaningful difference in your strategy. What this does is cripple the Salamander for anything but buffing a 500+ point LoW, as that's the only situation where you'll ever get enough of a buff to justify the cost.

Sooo... I guess I can toss my idea to buy a Thunderhawk sometime in the future out of the window. No way it's worth fielding at 1300 points (BEFORE wargear) besides Anything Goes Apocalypses, of which I have no idea I'll ever play one in the first place. Who thought up this "let's double random FW superheavies point costs" stuff? Rest of it looks pretty nice though, I think I can start fielding my Inceptors for my Space Wolves army regularly at this point.

I'm confused. Some good changes but some weird oversights.

Where are the points increases for Magnus, changeling, dark reapers, obliterators, castellan robots, russes and guard plasma?

And where are the price cuts for orks and necrons?

They seemed to miss some of the most obvious balance changes in my mind! They caught a few, but missed a lot of obvious stuff...

EricDominus wrote:

Vakathi wrote:EDIT 2: Holy jeebus, they increased the price on the Salamander Command vehicle by almost 50% to way more than a Hellhound or even a Hydra...it's a Chimera that takes up an Elites slot that can't transport anything with a heavy flamer and heavy bolter that gets gets a scout move and gives a reroll 1's buff to a single vehicle unit within 6". Guess they didn't want to ever sell any of those.

Actually it gives +1 to hit, and that was super cool... until CA.

It also isn't actually on sale anymore.


Shame they didn't take the opportunity to revert the Commissar nerf with the Conscript points bump.
They really should have just listened to some of the input about requiring an Infantry Squad for each Conscript Squad.

Go on then....what have they done to R&H?

Guessing Malefic Lords got a nerf or at very least a price hike?

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'm confused. Some good changes but some weird oversights.

Where are the points increases for Magnus, changeling, dark reapers, obliterators, castellan robots, russes and guard plasma?

And where are the price cuts for orks and necrons?

They seemed to miss some of the most obvious balance changes in my mind! They caught a few, but missed a lot of obvious stuff...

Guard plasma already got points increased. It's in the Guard codex.

Just like how Meltaguns are presented here, we have two different points costs for Plasma. A cheaper one for units that are BS4+(which means it only applies to Infantry and Special Weapon Squads since nobody else that is BS4+ can take Special Weapons) and a more expensive cost for units that are BS3+(Command Squads, Veterans, and Scions).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Go on then....what have they done to R&H?

Guessing Malefic Lords got a nerf or at very least a price hike?

They went up to 80 points.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'm confused. Some good changes but some weird oversights.

Where are the points increases for Magnus, changeling, dark reapers, obliterators, castellan robots, russes and guard plasma?

And where are the price cuts for orks and necrons?

They seemed to miss some of the most obvious balance changes in my mind! They caught a few, but missed a lot of obvious stuff...

Guard plasma already got points increased. It's in the Guard codex.

Just like how Meltaguns are presented here, we have two different points costs for Plasma. A cheaper one for units that are BS4+(which means it only applies to Infantry and Special Weapon Squads since nobody else that is BS4+ can take Special Weapons) and a more expensive cost for units that are BS3+(Command Squads, Veterans, and Scions).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Go on then....what have they done to R&H?

Guessing Malefic Lords got a nerf or at very least a price hike?

They went up to 80 points.

Wow. That's a pretty steep increase but not too surprising.

Thought they might have just downgraded them to 'smite-lite' instead.

I think the idea is sound, but the point adjustments seem really random, and they haven't addressed a lot of issues. It seems like they're trying to do something they have no clue how to do still, so they're mucking it up. Like, they did nothing for Orks. Necrons and T'au are absent (which could mean a codex soon). Cawl DECREASED by 10 points despite them saying he would go up, so either they lied, they forgot or they didn't proofread (or a combination). Some really powerful Forgeworld stuff was untouched (Leviathan Dreadnoughts), some were hit a bit too heavy-handed.

In general I'm sure the book overall will be good, but it doesn't really fix anything at all, so classic GW of doing something to say you're doing something, but you really just changed which pipe is leaking instead of fixing the pipes.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Go on then....what have they done to R&H?

Guessing Malefic Lords got a nerf or at very least a price hike?

More than a price hike i'd say that the price skyrocketed, they are now 80 points.


I think i'm seeing a trend here, the more data they had, the better they worked.

SM: Lots of data on them > Lots of small spot on adjustements.
AM: Not as much data as SM, but still a good amount > about 70% accuracy on changes.
Forgeworld: Close to no data > Changes all over the place.

Many of the changes are quite puzzling, such as the conscript points change. Also a lot of omissions as well, such as the Changeling, and entirety of Tau or Necrons indexes (though they're getting a codex soon maybe? Should probably announce that).

EricDominus wrote:
EDIT 2: Holy jeebus, they increased the price on the Salamander Command vehicle by almost 50% to way more than a Hellhound or even a Hydra...it's a Chimera that takes up an Elites slot that can't transport anything with a heavy flamer and heavy bolter that gets gets a scout move and gives a reroll 1's buff to a single vehicle unit within 6". Guess they didn't want to ever sell any of those.

Actually it gives +1 to hit, and that was super cool... until CA.

If you could give a super heavy +1 to hit for 75 points would you do it? And by doing so you got a tank for the cost of a heavy flamer and heavy bolter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
I think the big take away from this is that the "new" GW/FW needs to seriously reconsider how they operate. Either they need to improve on planning ahead or introduce a new department specifically aimed at altering printed material for situations like this. Conscripts being nerfed for the 3rd time illustrates a lack of communication, planning & organization internally.

Post 3rd nerf, conscripts are going to be yet another unit in the IG codex that will end up like penal legion, medusas etc. No one will use them because GW nerfed them into the ground & they will just end up being removed entirely from the codex.

Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.

What the actual zog? What was the ork nerf?! I can only assume at this point that they just want to remove orks from the game because of how little they pay attention to us.

There wasn't an Ork nerf. Every single thing they listed was a point drop. But I suppose when the GW hate train is rolling you'll see (and say) anything you want.

Daedalus81 wrote:

There wasn't an Ork nerf. Every single thing they listed was a point drop. But I suppose when the GW hate train is rolling you'll see anything you want to see.

Except for the killtank which went up by a lot, not that it really matters.