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tneva82 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 auticus wrote:
I agree... you need poiints for structure for pick up games. Thats why I don't mind Power Level, and thats why I wrote Azyr Comp for AOS when it first came out.

Now for our 40k campaign coming up that uses Power Level you are restricted to a certain number of upgrades period. So you can't just take everything.

So again it requires agreed to restrictions, to work properly. The reason PL works for most pick up games is that if you play WYSIWYG most people have built things for points, so armies are not using every upgrade, if PL became the common means of balance, unless accompanied by restrictions, people would start to build their units with max upgrades.

Or not. Funny thing is player self-restriction CAN work. You can have tournament with tournament player asking to limit the spam and broken stuff and lo and behold players actually are capable of doing that. Been there, done that, seen that work.

Ummm....but you asked them to do so, therefore it isn't self-restriction but instead one imposed
By the event. Now maybe it was just done through social pressure rather than strict rules, but it was done none the less. If you ran tournaments without asking for said restriction people would start building to max upgrades on their units because that would be the corr ft competitiv choice.

Any major changes to CSM?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Any major changes to CSM?

Some pretty good ones for non-FW stuff:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/11/20/chapter-approved-leak-compilation/

 Fafnir wrote:
I think it's because at the end of the day, regardless of how any of us might disagree about anything in particular, we can all look fondly at our collections and take pride in the work we put into what we've physically built up, as well as the more social environment that tabletop games regularly develop. There's a place of shared empathy because we all can understand some core elements of the hobby that keep us coming back to it, which also serve to provide alternative sources of life to the hobby that allow it to exist beyond simple power balances and provide a bulwark for the absolute worst pain that a major change or shift in power may bring. Essentially, there's always something left to cling on to.

Mind if I quote this? It really speaks to the heart

Smfh
Why in Nurgles name did defilers need a points bump?

We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

 Zid wrote:
We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

They did that already. Razorbacks and Stormravens (and to a lesser extent, wave serpents) are among the most powerful unit options out there. Harlequin transports are fantastic. Not only that, but units can charge now after exiting a transport.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Zid wrote:
We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

They did that already. Razorbacks and Stormravens (and to a lesser extent, wave serpents) are among the most powerful unit options out there. Harlequin transports are fantastic. Not only that, but units can charge now after exiting a transport.

When did they lower Rhino costs? CSM ones are 70 points, which is a lot for a box that you can no longer fire from

I see the drop to other transports, which is nice, but... Rhinos are a staple unit. I feel like 50-60 points feels good for what they do

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Smfh
Why in Nurgles name did defilers need a points bump?

They went down in points though?

the_scotsman wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Smfh
Why in Nurgles name did defilers need a points bump?

They went down in points though?

If looking at the kitten blog i think they messed up

they put "old then new" in the top but its actually new and old.

otherwise girlyman would of dropped 25 points and the internet would of collectively flipped their lids.

 Zid wrote:
We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

Rhinos are the most undercosted transports in the game, they should be 90 points plus weapons.

 Blackie wrote:

 Zid wrote:
We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

Rhinos are the most undercosted transports in the game, they should be 90 points plus weapons.

Yeah that's why you see them dominating tournaments...Oh wait those are razorbacks with twin assault cannons.

So If ITC or another large tournament organizer came out with recommended points values would any of you any of you use that instead?

Some of these price changes are insane.

I would have no problems using their points in tournaments or random pick&up games. At home no since we don't use matched play points much anyway

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Zid wrote:
We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

Rhinos are the most undercosted transports in the game, they should be 90 points plus weapons.

Yeah that's why you see them dominating tournaments...Oh wait those are razorbacks with twin assault cannons.

Yeah razorbacks are dominating but not as transports, just shooty immobile tanks.

If you compare all the other transports in the game you'll certainly notice that 72 points for a T7 10W 3+ transport that can carry 10 guys is a steal. Orks trukks are 82 with T6 and 4+, drukhari raiders even 115 points and only T5 4+ just with a better weapon.

I also couldn't care less about the tournament meta, only WAAC players that spam the same 2-3 units go there. Tournaments lists are not the usual, it's just a minority of players. Rhinos are extremely good, the units that can take them are usually not worthy because SM basically only have shooty stuff. In SW lists with grey hunters, blood claws, wolf guards or even long fangs with heavy bolters rhinos are quite effective. In CSM lists they can be very effective as well.

Yeah, from a CSM perspective rhinos are solid, though I think they'll be replaced by the dreadclaw for most things now that that's priced reasonably.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Zid wrote:
We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

Rhinos are the most undercosted transports in the game, they should be 90 points plus weapons.

Yeah that's why you see them dominating tournaments...Oh wait those are razorbacks with twin assault cannons.

Yeah razorbacks are dominating but not as transports, just shooty immobile tanks.

If you compare all the other transports in the game you'll certainly notice that 72 points for a T7 10W 3+ transport that can carry 10 guys is a steal. Orks trukks are 82 with T6 and 4+, drukhari raiders even 115 points and only T5 4+ just with a better weapon.

I also couldn't care less about the tournament meta, only WAAC players that spam the same 2-3 units go there. Tournaments lists are not the usual, it's just a minority of players. Rhinos are extremely good, the units that can take them are usually not worthy because SM basically only have shooty stuff. In SW lists with grey hunters, blood claws, wolf guards or even long fangs with heavy bolters rhinos are quite effective. In CSM lists they can be very effective as well.

So if others are even more overpointed you need to make the slightly less overcosted thing even more overcosted rather than say fix them all by lowering point costs...

Yeah that makes sense...NOT!

If rhino's were so undercosted as you claim you would see them use all the time. Funnily enough that doesn't seem to be case.

 Dayknight wrote:


So If ITC or another large tournament organizer came out with recommended points values would any of you any of you use that instead?

Some of these price changes are insane.

Depends on the quality of the evaluation and the rate of adoption. Ifa few groups in the boonies made use of such a list, no. But if major tournaments started making moves towards a standardized set, perhaps.

tneva82 wrote:
If rhino's were so undercosted as you claim you would see them use all the time. Funnily enough that doesn't seem to be case.

You did see them all the time pre-codex as a berserker delivery system. They got replaced by the Alpha Legion stratagem in top tier lists but World Eaters players are still using rhinos.

tneva82 wrote:


If rhino's were so undercosted as you claim you would see them use all the time. Funnily enough that doesn't seem to be case.

It's only because SM have a pletora of overpowered/undercosted stuff

If they can have more competitive builts it doesn't mean that rhinos are not undercosted.

The problem about rhinos is not their cost, which is actually a real bargain, but the fact that this edition allows too many deep striking units. IMHO deep strike should have never existed. And as I said the before rhinos don't look particularly competitive for SM because right now they're basically a gun line army.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


If rhino's were so undercosted as you claim you would see them use all the time. Funnily enough that doesn't seem to be case.

It's only because SM have a pletora of overpowered/undercosted stuff

If they can have more competitive builts it doesn't mean that rhinos are not undercosted.

The problem about rhinos is not their cost, which is actually a real bargain, but the fact that this edition allows too many deep striking units. IMHO deep strike should have never existed. And as I said the before rhinos don't look particularly competitive for SM because right now they're basically a gun line army.

Aaaah yes rhino's only exists in SM army and not in other armies that also make regular appearances in top tournament spots yet aren't brimming with rhino's.

Yep yep. That rhino indeed is still so brokenly good and undercosted despite not appearing in top tournament tables in any significant numbers even when not in SM army. Yeah makes sense.

Complain about price when you see them dominating tournament tables.

Dude, every army in tournaments just spam 4-5 units. It doesn't mean that everything else is garbage.

SW may have better builds but a rhino rush with blood claws can be quite effective in a semi-competitive meta, but also wolf guards, long fangs and grey hunters which now even received a price cut. Berzerkers in rhinos are scary.

You should never consider tournaments to say if a unit is good or bad. It's only a small part of 40k (probably even less than 5% of the games played) and IMHO tournaments are not even real 40k games since 3 turns games are quite different than real ones.

There's a range of value and different shades in the units/wargear, not only garbage or overpowered. Rhinos are very good, the fact that armies can spam a few overpowered units and go to a tournaments with lists that boring doesn't mean that rhinos are not undercosted and an effective transport.

Lads, lads, calm down. Just play PL pickup games, then you never get salty. Works for me.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Lads, lads, calm down. Just play PL pickup games, then you never get salty. Works for me.

Oh no we ain't falling for your cunning ruse, my name ain't failaddon.

All the guard players are buttmad over this.

Hey, your army was stupid good there for a bit. Guard players were swaggering about, puffing their chests out, acting like they'd mastered some kind of strategy for winning.

Ask me if I care now. Your army is not unplayable, you'll be fine.

And I play guard, too.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
All the guard players are buttmad over this.

Hey, your army was stupid good there for a bit. Guard players were swaggering about, puffing their chests out, acting like they'd mastered some kind of strategy for winning.

Ask me if I care now. Your army is not unplayable, you'll be fine.

And I play guard, too.

You know I don't think I know anyone like this.

In fact recently I've been trying to find ways to mitigate the unfunness of my Baneblade companies, though I am fairly certain it's not the machines themselves but rather the "skew" tendency of the list.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Zid wrote:
We need a drop in Rhino points across all codexes; make transports great again!

Rhinos are the most undercosted transports in the game, they should be 90 points plus weapons.

Yeah that's why you see them dominating tournaments...Oh wait those are razorbacks with twin assault cannons.

Yeah razorbacks are dominating but not as transports, just shooty immobile tanks.

If you compare all the other transports in the game you'll certainly notice that 72 points for a T7 10W 3+ transport that can carry 10 guys is a steal. Orks trukks are 82 with T6 and 4+, drukhari raiders even 115 points and only T5 4+ just with a better weapon.

I also couldn't care less about the tournament meta, only WAAC players that spam the same 2-3 units go there. Tournaments lists are not the usual, it's just a minority of players. Rhinos are extremely good, the units that can take them are usually not worthy because SM basically only have shooty stuff. In SW lists with grey hunters, blood claws, wolf guards or even long fangs with heavy bolters rhinos are quite effective. In CSM lists they can be very effective as well.

Not even mentioning the Smoke Launchers for -1 to Hit rolls

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In fact recently I've been trying to find ways to mitigate the unfunness of my Baneblade companies, though I am fairly certain it's not the machines themselves but rather the "skew" tendency of the list.

Yeah, not to be a complete jerk, but when people say their own army isn't 'fun', most of the time it means it's a little broken. 40k has never been a 'balanced' game, but the fact that people have to nerf their own lists to play against anyone other than their own army on the table... there might be a problem.

Guard players are the least fun to play against these days. A few tweak their lists, but otherwise if someone puts down IG you can bet it's the Conscript and Bullgryn smashmob with a bunch of tanks. That's why the Commissar nerf is hilarious to me.

Not much 'fun' for anyone going up against a table full of conscripts, bullgryn, and tanks, and their only response is 'you should have used RG'.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In fact recently I've been trying to find ways to mitigate the unfunness of my Baneblade companies, though I am fairly certain it's not the machines themselves but rather the "skew" tendency of the list.

Yeah, not to be a complete jerk, but when people say their own army isn't 'fun', most of the time it means it's a little broken. 40k has never been a 'balanced' game, but the fact that people have to nerf their own lists to play against anyone other than their own army on the table... there might be a problem.

Guard players are the least fun to play against these days. A few tweak their lists, but otherwise if someone puts down IG you can bet it's the Conscript and Bullgryn smashmob with a bunch of tanks. That's why the Commissar nerf is hilarious to me.

Not much 'fun' for anyone going up against a table full of conscripts, bullgryn, and tanks, and their only response is 'you should have used RG'.

Actually, if you look back at the thread I made, the biggest problem isn't the OPness of the tanks (though Steel Behemoth makes them borderline broken) but rather the boringness of having only 3 units that do the heavy lifting - essentially, the enemy has 0 target priority choices and0 options other than "kill da baneblade"; it's therefore just not a very interesting game.

I need to fix that without increasing points and that's a very difficult thing to do.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I need to fix that without increasing points and that's a very difficult thing to do.

To be fair, the solution is very simple, its just that it'd upset people who play entirely superheavy armies, or use them regularly.