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CA=Primaris Buff

 Byte wrote:
CA=Primaris Buff

Yet ironically doesn't address their fundamental problems.

So I just picked up my copy of Chapter Approved today (had it preordered at my FLGS), and having skimmed through a lot of it I can tell some things I like and dislike about the points changes and balance fixes.
Likes:
Malefic Lords are now 80 points. While it was overkill, this was a much needed nerf to one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game.
Space Wolves price drops across the board. Between this and the new stratagems/warlord trait/relic, I think we'll see more competitive SW lists even before their codex comes (at least in theory). Makes me happy since I have some SW that I'm slowly building into a playable army.
Primaris Marine price drops. Primaris Marines are really cool models (all of them), so it's nice to see them actually be playable. I'm having to wait on the Dark Angels codex (not much longer though), but this makes me happy since I now know that these models will be good.
Razorback/Guilliman point increase. Neither increase was enough, but at least it was something.
Drop Pod slight drop. Maybe we'll see a few more pods pop up in games. Unlikely, but possible.
Major price bump for Big Bird. He can take out a Titan fairly easily, so he should cost as much as one. Be honest, he was completely broken before.
Genestealer Cult changes. I don't play these guys, but I love the army and am glad to see them get some of their more flavorful rules back (RttS in particular). I've got a friend who will be really happy with this.
Hellforged Dreadclaw price drop. I've been waiting for an excuse to make one of these out of a Drop Pod kit. Now I'm going to do it (not sure how soon though).
Plague Marines price drop. Nice to see these awesome new models actually be good for their points now. Bonus points to GW for reducing the cost of Blight Launchers; this helps Blightlord Termies as well.
Force Weapon price drops. They should cost more than their regular power weapon counterparts; they still do, but now it's less. Not a huge difference, but at least I can squeeze in a couple more Cultists into my lists now.
Dislikes:
Fire Raptor price drop. This thing was already really good, now it is so good that there is literally no point in taking a Stormraven anymore, especially since the Stormraven got a price hike.
Complete lack of point changes for Tau and Necrons. Tau have some of the most overcosted stuff in the game right now. So do Necrons. At least Necrons got some halfway decent new stratagems and stuff. Tau got shafted completely. Too many vocal people who are still butthurt about how good Tau were in 7th, I guess.
No real love for the Chaos Dinobots. Forgefiends and Maulerfiends, and to a lesser extent Heldrakes; all of them needed a price drop. They got nothing. Even Defilers needed a better drop than they got. At least they could have made them get benefits of Legion Traits to help them compete.
Conscript price bump. They've already been nerfed a bunch. Did they really need more? I guess there were a lot of hurt feelings from the beginning of 8th. Guard players have my sympathies, and I'm glad I didn't drop a bunch of money on Guardsman models to ally with my Dark Angels...

As for the rest of the book, I like the new missions (although I only skimmed them). I think the "Build your own Land Raider" rules are a waste of time and space in the book; I can't see many people actually doing this.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Conscript price bump. They've already been nerfed a bunch. Did they really need more? I guess there were a lot of hurt feelings from the beginning of 8th. Guard players have my sympathies, and I'm glad I didn't drop a bunch of money on Guardsman models to ally with my Dark Angels...

I think this is a result of games workshop mirroring a monolithic bureaucracy much like the adeptus ministorum in their fictional setting. They planned to 'fix' conscripts by upping their points. Okay. But between planning that fix and the fix going to the printers, they received feedback that the problem wasn't the conscripts themselves, but their interaction with the commissars. So in the meantime, they fixed the commissars (if that's what you can call it, i think they could have been nerfed while still handling better). And then 100 years later after the war against the orks was first declared, their original 'fix' hit. Resulting in conscripts going from 'always take, regardless of army' to 'never take'. For all those who spent lots of money buying conscript models - deep in the warp, the god of money howled with pleasure. Money for the money god, sales for the sales throne!

easy Smite fix: Range 6 inch

 Viper666 wrote:
easy Smite fix: Range 6 inch

easy grey-knight fix: bend over, and be thankful for what's coming.

I'll just say this book seems really half baked. I like the idea behind it, especially "balance" changes and little updates for index armies, but it really feels like a collection of missed opportunities and also criminally overpriced. I don't know why, but my expectations were rather high for this one, and I feel like GW just didn't give this the time and attention it deserved.

Is there anything about the FW legions of chaos? Skulltakers, The Tainted, etc..

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Viper666 wrote:
easy Smite fix: Range 6 inch

easy grey-knight fix: bend over, and be thankful for what's coming.

People who don't play psychic armies are far too eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater in regards to smite. I still say the spell isn't the problem and the problem is the undercosted psykers with access to it. Nobody is complaining about Exalted Sorcerers being able to smite.

I've read about as much of this thread as I can bear and I still don't know what this book is for. Points changes? What is the point of a codex any more in that case? I cannot keep up with GW any more.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Byte wrote:
CA=Primaris Buff

Yet ironically doesn't address their fundamental problems.

You want more point reductions for Primaris?

 Zygrot24 wrote:
I've read about as much of this thread as I can bear and I still don't know what this book is for. Points changes? What is the point of a codex any more in that case? I cannot keep up with GW any more.

The point isn't point changes. It's only in there as an official publication as part of their yearly rebalancing.

The BRB has a bunch of sections for advanced rules. Planet Strike, Cities of Death, advanced terrain rules, etc etc...

They are all modular additions to the game.

CA is, at it's core, a yearly release of more advanced rules, experimental rules, and other updates to the game. This one book comes with 24 missions for feths sake. Even if only half of them are good thats 12 new missions to keep the game fresh. CA is the new way they are doing all those supplementry rules books they used to do except the content is significantly more dense for significantly less money. The fact that it has more stuff in addition to that is great. Planet Strike never came with adjusted points costs for the bulk of the game. Or experimental rules to be built on later.

I really don't understand the flak CA is getting.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Zygrot24 wrote:
I've read about as much of this thread as I can bear and I still don't know what this book is for. Points changes? What is the point of a codex any more in that case? I cannot keep up with GW any more.

[snip]

I really don't understand the flak CA is getting.

Neither do I. GW has been criticised in the past for a lack of responsiveness in making balance changes. CA gives them a method for doing it on a regular basis, while also introducing a bunch of new rules. I really like all of the new Maelstrom missions they introduced too. They seem to be trying to make objective play more important, possibly in a bid to try to reduce the effectiveness of gunlines. Even if they're not fully successful, the general idea is one I welcome.

What people want is logical adjustments that have been well thought out and play tested, ca does not deliver that.

Upping the price of underpowered units while leaving strong units untouched makes no sense.

Never seen any demand for shadow spectres to be nerfed but they shot up 60 points.

And rules for index armies are very lacklustre and don't help with the massive power difference.

Most don't care about the missions we wanted fixes and did not get them.

hobojebus wrote:
What people want is logical adjustments that have been well thought out and play tested, ca does not deliver that.

Upping the price of underpowered units while leaving strong units untouched makes no sense.

Never seen any demand for shadow spectres to be nerfed but they shot up 60 points.

And rules for index armies are very lacklustre and don't help with the massive power difference.

Most don't care about the missions we wanted fixes and did not get them.

To be fair though, all that together is what...25 pages of the 150+ page book?

The balance changes were dissappointing sure, but that doesn't make the whole dam book bad.

I read the Eternal War Matched Play missions and they are surprisingly well written. They introduce the +1 to roll for first turn, unless it showed up elsewhere in the book and I've missed it. Additionally, there are objectives scored on each round instead of the end of the game. I've played these types of missions in tourneys over the past several years, but GW has gotten on board and wrote their own.

The book has a lot of material for Open and Narrative play, but I suspect they are less played than Matched play.

The thing I noticed about FW was that they changed points values, but Power Levels were untouched. The points generally went up and it made me wonder if GW is directing FW into the realm of Narrative and Open play without directly stating such.

ERJAK wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
What people want is logical adjustments that have been well thought out and play tested, ca does not deliver that.

Upping the price of underpowered units while leaving strong units untouched makes no sense.

Never seen any demand for shadow spectres to be nerfed but they shot up 60 points.

And rules for index armies are very lacklustre and don't help with the massive power difference.

Most don't care about the missions we wanted fixes and did not get them.

To be fair though, all that together is what...25 pages of the 150+ page book?

The balance changes were dissappointing sure, but that doesn't make the whole dam book bad.

Well given that very few people care about the other modes of play and were interested in ca only for points and rules for index armies those things being disappointing does make the book bad.

What's more gw knew people wouldn't buy the book for missions and the land raider stuff that's why points got shoved in.

Ca is for me a waste of time and I know I'm far from alone in ignoring this book completely.

For people saying they are disappointed: what were you expecting out of the book?

It was more or less what I was expecting, I was hoping for full reprints of the points for any armies with changes as then I could have all the points in one place vs several separate locations, and perhaps a few more adjustments for index armies, but mostly it is what I was expecting and I'm not sure I really want it to be more. I'd rather see a few small changes at a time to big overhauls

hobojebus wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
What people want is logical adjustments that have been well thought out and play tested, ca does not deliver that.

Upping the price of underpowered units while leaving strong units untouched makes no sense.

Never seen any demand for shadow spectres to be nerfed but they shot up 60 points.

And rules for index armies are very lacklustre and don't help with the massive power difference.

Most don't care about the missions we wanted fixes and did not get them.

To be fair though, all that together is what...25 pages of the 150+ page book?

The balance changes were dissappointing sure, but that doesn't make the whole dam book bad.

Well given that very few people care about the other modes of play and were interested in ca only for points and rules for index armies those things being disappointing does make the book bad.

What's more gw knew people wouldn't buy the book for missions and the land raider stuff that's why points got shoved in.

Ca is for me a waste of time and I know I'm far from alone in ignoring this book completely.

You have no basis to say what few or many people care about.

GW knows exactly how well apocalypse, cities of death and all the other books sell. They have years of gauging those things. They can extrapolate from that a reasonable expectation of sales when they merge them all into one cheaper book.

CA is an annual book. You think a major component of CA every year is going to be adding a stratagem, a WL trait, and relic for each army that doesn't have a codex yet? At the current release rate every army will have a codex by end of Summer. If you are currently a non codex army and you want to buy CA purely for your own armys rules then you are expecting something from the book that it has never been pitched as. They said you would get some small things, this time, as a hold over. Thats what everyone got.

You wanted point adjustments based on what? All the codexes are not out yet and this book was written and sent to the printers over 6 weeks ago at LEAST. The next CA should come 6 months after the final codex release. THATS the point adjustments I am interested in.

You want something from the book that it isn't. Not many, not the majority, not anything. I went to my half of walmart sized FLGS today to pick up my reserved copy and they were sold out. I think it's fair to say CA is selling well and GW has predicted it's desirability accurately. Sorry they didn't make the product just for you?

hobojebus wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
What people want is logical adjustments that have been well thought out and play tested, ca does not deliver that.

Upping the price of underpowered units while leaving strong units untouched makes no sense.

Never seen any demand for shadow spectres to be nerfed but they shot up 60 points.

And rules for index armies are very lacklustre and don't help with the massive power difference.

Most don't care about the missions we wanted fixes and did not get them.

To be fair though, all that together is what...25 pages of the 150+ page book?

The balance changes were dissappointing sure, but that doesn't make the whole dam book bad.

Well given that very few people care about the other modes of play and were interested in ca only for points and rules for index armies those things being disappointing does make the book bad.

What's more gw knew people wouldn't buy the book for missions and the land raider stuff that's why points got shoved in.

Ca is for me a waste of time and I know I'm far from alone in ignoring this book completely.

I'm guessing you won't be ignoring this book completely if yout faction/s recieved some point adjustments.

CA was touted primarily as a temporary fix for Index armies suffering under significantly over powered/under powered units. MOST of the index armies were hoping for some serious help because a lot of their army was basically invalid.

In my case i was hoping for serious price cuts on over priced units like Warbikes, Trukkz, DeffKoptas, anything with a Rokkit, Burnas, Nobz, Nob Bikers, Tankbustas, Battlewagons, all our flyers and major help with the fact that PKs suck and our only anti-tank answer is "Ignore it".

what I got was marginal price cuts for some minor things, utterly useless price cuts for heavily over priced weapons and MAJOR price cuts to a unit that is utterly crap and nobody owns (buggies).

So for me, i will be ignoring CA and just using my index and adding in price cuts which i can get for free from 100 sources.

Slipspace wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Zygrot24 wrote:
snip

[snip]

I really don't understand the flak CA is getting.

Neither do I. GW has been criticised in the past for a lack of responsiveness in making balance changes. CA gives them a method for doing it on a regular basis, while also introducing a bunch of new rules. I really like all of the new Maelstrom missions they introduced too. They seem to be trying to make objective play more important, possibly in a bid to try to reduce the effectiveness of gunlines. Even if they're not fully successful, the general idea is one I welcome.

No flak. I really didn't/still don't understand what it's for. It seemed pretty unlooked for and outside how they normally go about things. Mind you, I think GW doing things differently is a good thing, even if the results aren't universally appreciated.

I haven't been buying many GW products other than books and paint. BRB, 3 Indexes (Chaos, I1, Xenos2), CSM, SM, DG, and now CA. I bought my first clamp act blister in what seems like years (the Tallyman). Mostly to support my LGS. I'm doing my part! And you can too. Join the Mobile Infantry.

SemperMortis wrote:
CA was touted primarily as a temporary fix for Index armies suffering under significantly over powered/under powered units. MOST of the index armies were hoping for some serious help because a lot of their army was basically invalid.

In my case i was hoping for serious price cuts on over priced units like Warbikes, Trukkz, DeffKoptas, anything with a Rokkit, Burnas, Nobz, Nob Bikers, Tankbustas, Battlewagons, all our flyers and major help with the fact that PKs suck and our only anti-tank answer is "Ignore it".

what I got was marginal price cuts for some minor things, utterly useless price cuts for heavily over priced weapons and MAJOR price cuts to a unit that is utterly crap and nobody owns (buggies).

So for me, i will be ignoring CA and just using my index and adding in price cuts which i can get for free from 100 sources.

Yeah this basically.

I mean okay - maybe they don't want to have say Ork/Necron/Tau etc players run out and buy this only to find there is a new codex to buy in February 2018.

But for people who had been hoping their Index was going to get meaningful help this is a bit of a fail. Melee special weapons are no longer comically overpriced. Well that's nice - but not exactly changing the game.

Chapter Approved is for the game and for the codexes. Why would GW bother issuing errata for index armies that will be getting a new codex before Chapter Approved 2018? I mean, seriously. Think about it. Why pay a rules developer to research an issue, come up with a solution, test it, and then submit it for an army that the developer will be turning around and re-writing for it's codex as his/her next project? It's a waste of time, resources, and money. Fix the problems in the Codexes because those won't be rewritten for years, while the Indexes? Those will all be gone by the end of 2018.

Maybe they should just insert a white board inside the codexes instead of point cost tables....

picked up my copy from FLGS today, its about as expected really.

I'd expect the 2018 version to be better, I'd expect by then all the codexes to be out - I'd like but don't expect that to then have a complete set of point values - so you just need the data sheets from the boxes ad CA2018 to play - the codex then being a bonus, with stuff like the psi powers etc.

Apoc is about as it ever was but this is the place for it, ditto planet strike/stronghold assault so happy to see it.

More missions for the basic game are always welcome.

the Land Raider stuff would be nice it included matched play stuff, it would be nice to get something similar for Looted stuff in the work book.

otherwise, its so so, but for £20 I'm not complaining, the bit on objective markers is nice to fill a few pages.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Chapter Approved is for the game and for the codexes. Why would GW bother issuing errata for index armies that will be getting a new codex before Chapter Approved 2018? I mean, seriously. Think about it. Why pay a rules developer to research an issue, come up with a solution, test it, and then submit it for an army that the developer will be turning around and re-writing for it's codex as his/her next project? It's a waste of time, resources, and money. Fix the problems in the Codexes because those won't be rewritten for years, while the Indexes? Those will all be gone by the end of 2018.

Given that the last two editions have lasted two and three years respectively, 5E was a 4 year edition, if we assume a similar timeline, that means some armies may not get codex books until halfway through the edition or more. That's a long time to be sitting on it, especially if the issues are known.

Besides, it's not like there needs to be in depth regression testing or anything like that for a lot of things. We're not deploying a large software patch here, there's tons of things that are blatantly overcosted and take two seconds of thought to fix that wouldn't require extensive research, solution finding, and testing, which, let's be honest, it doesn't appear GW is really doing anyway given many of the CA changes.

 Insectum7 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
What people want is logical adjustments that have been well thought out and play tested, ca does not deliver that.

Upping the price of underpowered units while leaving strong units untouched makes no sense.

Never seen any demand for shadow spectres to be nerfed but they shot up 60 points.

And rules for index armies are very lacklustre and don't help with the massive power difference.

Most don't care about the missions we wanted fixes and did not get them.

To be fair though, all that together is what...25 pages of the 150+ page book?

The balance changes were dissappointing sure, but that doesn't make the whole dam book bad.

Well given that very few people care about the other modes of play and were interested in ca only for points and rules for index armies those things being disappointing does make the book bad.

What's more gw knew people wouldn't buy the book for missions and the land raider stuff that's why points got shoved in.

Ca is for me a waste of time and I know I'm far from alone in ignoring this book completely.

I'm guessing you won't be ignoring this book completely if yout faction/s recieved some point adjustments.

There you are wrong I'm not playing any 40k at the moment because everyone but me has got a codex, last two games I was shot off the board by turn two thanks to stratagems I have no counters to.

Necrons got nothing, they made ynaari garbage and ca didn't help them and the sw stuff is zero help with the glaring issue that they've made shooting much stronger again than assault.

This books 100% worthless to me on every level.

Well then, clearly it's not aimed at you. I wouldn't buy an update to armies I don't play either. I wouldn't be a mr. grumpypants about it though.