Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If Girlyman keeps getting spammed, he will keep going up.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

10 points was completely unnecessary and you know it.

Heavy flamer is 17 points.

What do you pay for a gun that is a heavy flamer, but also can shoot at 18" at S6 AP3 with a 30% chance to have 3 shots?

Stop being obtuse.

Martel732 wrote:
If Girlyman keeps getting spammed, he will keep going up.

I mean, I guess you could claim one of the Guillimans is Alpharius in disguise. Maybe another is a Fabious Bile clone? I think you have a hard time justifying more that 3 Guillimans in an army though.

Spectres could have gone up 1-4 ppm and been fine, but at +10 points per man, they're absolute garbage now, and have no place in any remotely competitive environment. Shining Spears and Reapers outperform them in every relevant way (and were already better before the nerf).

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

10 points was completely unnecessary and you know it.

Heavy flamer is 17 points.

What do you pay for a gun that is a heavy flamer, but also can shoot at 18" at S6 AP3 with a 30% chance to have 3 shots?

Stop being obtuse.

Considering you can only ever be firing one of those guns at a time, not a hell of a lot more.

But it's okay, because apparently Shadow Spectres were dominant enough (they weren't) that they absolutely had to go up over 40% in price, while Celestine didn't have to change at all, and Guilliman was fine with a 7% increase.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

10 points was completely unnecessary and you know it.

Heavy flamer is 17 points.

What do you pay for a gun that is a heavy flamer, but also can shoot at 18" at S6 AP3 with a 30% chance to have 3 shots?

Stop being obtuse.

And Heavy Flamers aren't WORTH 17 points.

Maybe if they put in enough -1 to hit....

Lance, I honestly don't know anyone who bought CA for any purpose other then points adjustment. In true GW fashion they crammed a lot of extra stuff in there in the hopes of justifying its cost but the meat and potatoes is still the points changes and the factions special rules and what not. Take those out and almost no one would have bought the damned thing. Adding to that the GW Facebook dudes taking any criticism and saying "hey just you wait for CA, that will fix everything". And you are left with the fact that the primary purpose of CA was to address game balance, and they failed miserably. Most likely because they want to wait for everyone to get a codex so they can leech more money out of their fan base with there least effort possible.

 Fafnir wrote:
Spectres could have gone up 1-4 ppm and been fine, but at +10 points per man, they're absolute garbage now, and have no place in any remotely competitive environment. Shining Spears and Reapers outperform them in every relevant way (and were already better before the nerf).

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

10 points was completely unnecessary and you know it.

Heavy flamer is 17 points.

What do you pay for a gun that is a heavy flamer, but also can shoot at 18" at S6 AP3 with a 30% chance to have 3 shots?

Stop being obtuse.

Considering you can only ever be firing one of those guns at a time, not a hell of a lot more.

But it's okay, because apparently Shadow Spectres were dominant enough (they weren't) that they absolutely had to go up over 40% in price, while Celestine didn't have to change at all, and Guilliman was fine with a 7% increase.

I was unaware that Celestine getting a 50 point bump, means she did not increase in points at all. I know the superiors went down in points to compensate, but that only matters if you were taking both of them. So at best she stayed the same, if you take anything other than both superior she went up 25-50 points.

I'm not saying I know what the right cost for shadow specters is, but my impression was the Alaitoc trait really buffed them to the point where they were undercosted.

I fail to see why everyone is screaming for a guilliman + SM price hike.

He was undercosted before more codexes started to come out but now you don't even see SM lists in the top 5 meaning the competitive community has looked at what he costs v. what he brings to the table and decided they can better use the points elsewhere (nids, eldar, yanarri, chaos and AM). This was BEFORE any price increases from CA.

He is a good character but it seems like the SM codex was designed around including him. You price him to the point where he can't be included along with removing AssBacks from competitive play the SM dex will not be seen in competitive play.

These small, fine-tuning of point costs should be directed at competitive play because in casual games it is not hard to house-rule who is bringing what, what's unfair v. what you bring and the micro-balancing people not bringing their best can engage in.

I think CA was conceived at a time when the rest of the index armies were lacking their codexes and UM + parking lot was wrecking the tourney scene. The most current GT (Portal CT Winter) had 6 SM armies with only 2 guillimans out of 42 competitors. The top 10 was 3 AM, 2x chaos, 1 yannari, 1 eldar, 3 nids, 1 Ultramarines.

I'm pretty sure the November tourney results will bear this out and with a further nerf with CA combined with the current Codex creep I think SM of all flavors have been cost increased out of competitive play.

bananathug wrote:
I fail to see why everyone is screaming for a guilliman + SM price hike.
.

Because he's obnoxious and boring.

I think any sensible person is gunna wait until like August 2018 to see if balanced when all have their codex's...If it's not balanced (if all out by then) and are surprised you haven't played a table top game... If not balanced now CA is suppose to give a bit of relief/a stop gap until all get their codex... (If they do crazy crap...arh sales...) People say leech money and omg have a conniption cause the game is not what they want... omfg get a tissue...a teaspoon of cement...a can of concrete or an engineering degree to build a bridge and get over it. Game has been this way for so long, just make it what you want. I was gakky about DW but I am not whinging about it, ye makes em not great but meh, gotta keep trying instead of crying about it, if a will is a way, the luck of dice be with you... .

Who cares... is a game if you tournament they have adjusted rules to follow, if you play with mates you house rule, if random pick-ups just get prepared for that win at all cost numpty. Name of the game.

SC

 Sim-Life wrote:

bananathug wrote:
I fail to see why everyone is screaming for a guilliman + SM price hike.
.

Because he's obnoxious and boring.

Agreed, he really is terrible and encourages terrible game play. I really hope future primarchs are much more dynamic/special than he is.

Nerf him to hell and re-balance the entire SM codex to be competitive without him. Give him the FW "only used in narrative game" treatment and jack his price up to "over 9000" but to say he needs a price increase because he is OP competitively isn't born out by tournament results.

Breng77 wrote:

I was unaware that Celestine getting a 50 point bump, means she did not increase in points at all. I know the superiors went down in points to compensate, but that only matters if you were taking both of them. So at best she stayed the same, if you take anything other than both superior she went up 25-50 points.

You don't take Celestine without the Geminae, she's just not survivable enough without them (and since they're not named characters, one of them can take that shiny new relic sword, making it a significant buff for Celestine). Basically, they just gave you even more reason to run her with everything in the box. Most of the people that ran her aren't going to see much difference because of that.

I'm not saying I know what the right cost for shadow specters is, but my impression was the Alaitoc trait really buffed them to the point where they were undercosted.

It was pre-nerf Ynnari that made Spectres really silly. But that's gone now. Alaitoc helped to make them pretty durable, but not much more than it did for Spears (although the efficacy of the -1 past 12" between Spears and Spectres will depend on what is shooting at what, obviously, thanks to the Spears' 4++), who were already better units. Doubly so when you consider that Spectres need to get really close to do their job anyway. It served to make them very potent against artillery, but that's the direction the game needs to go in the first place, since artillery is so abusively powerful anyway.

At 23ppm, they were a touch on the low side, being able to compete mostly on par with Shining Spears, outdoing them in some places and losing in others. At 28ppm, they'd be less powerful and less durable than Shining Spears who could benefit from easier access to cover saves and better defenses against small arms. At 33ppm, they're ridiculously over costed, to the point where they'll never be able to make their value back trying to fulfill an anti-horde role with their flamers, and won't be able to find elite targets worth taking out with their focused shots. They're just too expensive now to get anything done that will justify their value.

Hey guys I have great news, I just saved a load of money on CA:2017 by playing necrons.

I saved it too, by playing CWE.

As always, CWE wins.

 Fafnir wrote:
You don't take Celestine without the Geminae, she's just not survivable enough without them (and since they're not named characters, one of them can take that shiny new relic sword, making it a significant buff for Celestine). Basically, they just gave you even more reason to run her with everything in the box. Most of the people that ran her aren't going to see much difference because of that.

This is demonstrably untrue. The top (Guard) lists that were taking Celestine were running her by herself as a suicide assassin. It's really only Sisters armies that were ever running her with the Geminae.

 Fafnir wrote:


Considering you can only ever be firing one of those guns at a time, not a hell of a lot more.

But it's okay, because apparently Shadow Spectres were dominant enough (they weren't) that they absolutely had to go up over 40% in price, while Celestine didn't have to change at all, and Guilliman was fine with a 7% increase.

As disingenuous as statements come.

A mythical squad of jump assault marines with heavy flamers drops in. They can shoot nothing.
Their opponent charges and they can shoot nothing.

They have paid 165 points to do so.

A squad of Shadow Spectres deploys on the line. They can move to the 36" line and reach out to 54". They score 3.3 + 2.2 + 1.5 hits.
They get charged - they can still shoot.

They paid 175 points to do so.

One of these units has T4. The other has -1 to hit. They both have 3+ armor saves. The exarch has 2 wounds.

That makes them equally as durable against S4.
Spectres are MORE durable against S6 and it only gets WORSE for the marines. Not to mentioned alaitoc and conceal.

And you force the enemy to roll an extra dice for morale and choose the worst w/in 6".

And you paid 10 extra fething points for that at the NEW cost.

If you want to opine about heavy flamers not being worth 17 points (where are all the "lol flamers hit fliers so good" people?), sure, that's fine.
But you don't get to pay less for that weapon, get a slightly worse plasma exterminator (which is 28 points) for 8 points, and be more durable than marines for less.

So "40% increased cost" is a bs metric.

...but Assault Marines are bad. Like... really, really bad. It's not a good comparison, because you're comparing them to crap. You're not just comparing them to units from another codex, which is already difficult, but you're comparing it to a unit that is widely accepted as being terrible. Also, it's 10 points per model, not just to the unit. Spectres are now 33 points per man.

If you compare them to units in the codex, Reapers and Spears were still better before the nerf.

Why would I buy this? Battlescribe will just be updated and there are only three or four rule changes. I suppose I would if I was running an army without a codex but a lot of the army tactics looked meh.

smegma_crunch wrote:
Why would I buy this? Battlescribe will just be updated and there are only three or four rule changes. I suppose I would if I was running an army without a codex but a lot of the army tactics looked meh.

The new missions are pretty cool, though I think I still wouldn't play them over ITC missions. There's a lot of cool stuff for the narrative/open players, though I'm pretty sure you're with me in not being terribly interested in that.

smegma_crunch wrote:
Why would I buy this? Battlescribe will just be updated and there are only three or four rule changes. I suppose I would if I was running an army without a codex but a lot of the army tactics looked meh.

Well if some one cant be arsed to buy a codex anyway then yeah no reason to when BS just has it all.

the real reason you would need to is for the Tourny players and Local group/FLG rules of having actual rules on hand.

So has anyone had a chance to play with the Landraider builder think yet? Is it true VDR or just the ability to swap out weapons?

Vim

 vim_the_good wrote:
So has anyone had a chance to play with the Landraider builder think yet? Is it true VDR or just the ability to swap out weapons?

Vim

You are swapping your weapons and Transport capacity around. It sounds great, but let me ask you this: How often can you get someone to play Open Play? We did a survey in my local Meta and realized noone had been able to get an Open Play game in since the launch of 8th. Even the casual players prefer matched for balance.

Wait the land raider stuffs not for matched, then why the fekke are people citing it as a plus point.

 Fafnir wrote:
Spectres could have gone up 1-4 ppm and been fine, but at +10 points per man, they're absolute garbage now, and have no place in any remotely competitive environment. Shining Spears and Reapers outperform them in every relevant way (and were already better before the nerf).

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

10 points was completely unnecessary and you know it.

Heavy flamer is 17 points.

What do you pay for a gun that is a heavy flamer, but also can shoot at 18" at S6 AP3 with a 30% chance to have 3 shots?

Stop being obtuse.

Considering you can only ever be firing one of those guns at a time, not a hell of a lot more.

But it's okay, because apparently Shadow Spectres were dominant enough (they weren't) that they absolutely had to go up over 40% in price, while Celestine didn't have to change at all, and Guilliman was fine with a 7% increase.

Shadow Spectres are ForgeWorld; that's the only reason for the price hike.

If it's FW, it got nuked to orbit (minus like one imperial flyer, which got decreased/buffed).

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
You don't take Celestine without the Geminae, she's just not survivable enough without them (and since they're not named characters, one of them can take that shiny new relic sword, making it a significant buff for Celestine). Basically, they just gave you even more reason to run her with everything in the box. Most of the people that ran her aren't going to see much difference because of that.

This is demonstrably untrue. The top (Guard) lists that were taking Celestine were running her by herself as a suicide assassin. It's really only Sisters armies that were ever running her with the Geminae.

At that point though, I'd rather just take a bunch of Eversors.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
You don't take Celestine without the Geminae, she's just not survivable enough without them (and since they're not named characters, one of them can take that shiny new relic sword, making it a significant buff for Celestine). Basically, they just gave you even more reason to run her with everything in the box. Most of the people that ran her aren't going to see much difference because of that.

This is demonstrably untrue. The top (Guard) lists that were taking Celestine were running her by herself as a suicide assassin. It's really only Sisters armies that were ever running her with the Geminae.

At that point though, I'd rather just take a bunch of Eversors.

Two Eversors can't move 24" across the board, jump over chaff screens to get to the good stuff, or claim/contest objectives. Nor can they give Bullgryns the potential to get a 2++ after strats/buffs. She was an absolute steal by herself at 150 points and could be crammed into any list without sacrificing much of anything.

smegma_crunch wrote:
Why would I buy this? Battlescribe will just be updated and there are only three or four rule changes. I suppose I would if I was running an army without a codex but a lot of the army tactics looked meh.

If it's just point values you're after then definitely skip. Battlescribe has already been updated with the new points - at least my DG data set has, safe to assume to the others already have as well.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
You don't take Celestine without the Geminae, she's just not survivable enough without them (and since they're not named characters, one of them can take that shiny new relic sword, making it a significant buff for Celestine). Basically, they just gave you even more reason to run her with everything in the box. Most of the people that ran her aren't going to see much difference because of that.

This is demonstrably untrue. The top (Guard) lists that were taking Celestine were running her by herself as a suicide assassin. It's really only Sisters armies that were ever running her with the Geminae.

At that point though, I'd rather just take a bunch of Eversors.

Two Eversors can't move 24" across the board, jump over chaff screens to get to the good stuff, or claim/contest objectives. Nor can they give Bullgryns the potential to get a 2++ after strats/buffs. She was an absolute steal by herself at 150 points and could be crammed into any list without sacrificing much of anything.

I mean, Celestine's definitely hella good, and offers plenty to IG (more than she does Sisters), you've outlined more than I'd originally considered, but I'd argue that at least one Geminae is needed to maximize her efficiency, even before the nerf. The overall increased durability, combined with the ability for her to die and come back without having to be repositioned allows her to hold onto key points and lock up key units better. And now that the Geminae of access to a relic, they increase her damage output considerably too.

Even with an increase to her base cost, I seriously doubt anyone who was running her for their IG before will be changing their minds about her. They'll just be considering the option of bringing a regenerating girlfriend who gives an extra 3 S5/AP-3/D3 attacks with her.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I think any sensible person is gunna wait until like August 2018 to see if balanced when all have their codex's...If it's not balanced (if all out by then) and are surprised you haven't played a table top game... If not balanced now CA is suppose to give a bit of relief/a stop gap until all get their codex... (If they do crazy crap...arh sales...) People say leech money and omg have a conniption cause the game is not what they want... omfg get a tissue...a teaspoon of cement...a can of concrete or an engineering degree to build a bridge and get over it. Game has been this way for so long, just make it what you want. I was gakky about DW but I am not whinging about it, ye makes em not great but meh, gotta keep trying instead of crying about it, if a will is a way, the luck of dice be with you... .

Who cares... is a game if you tournament they have adjusted rules to follow, if you play with mates you house rule, if random pick-ups just get prepared for that win at all cost numpty. Name of the game.

SC

8th ed seems to be this mythical "just wait for X" from get-go. It's always "wait for X to fix things". Well actually screw 8th. It's been always in 40k. Never happened, never will. 40k won't be even near balanced even with codexes are all out. What's going to be next "just wait for X. It's going to make all the difference?"