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Last week I played my first game against 8th Tyranids, in fact my first game against them for quite a while. I played my standard SM list, a list which while quite strong (It's beat a few varied armies, including killing Mortarion on Turn 1), it stood absolutely no chance against these 'Nids.

My List
Lias Issodon
Librarian, Combi-Flamer
Lieutenant

5x Sternguard Veterans

10x Tactical Marines, Plasma, Combi-Plasma and Lascannon
10x Tactical Marines, Plasma, Combi-Plasma and Lascannon
10x Tactical Marines, Plasma, Combi-Plasma and Lascannon

5x Devastator Marines, 4x Multi-Meltas
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Missile Launchers
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Heavy Bolters


His List
Swarmlord
Broodlord

20x Genestealers
20x Genestealers
20x Genestealers

Trygon Prime
Trygon Prime
Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon


I played 2 games with him and by the end of Turn 1 I was pretty much beyond getting even a draw. Regardless of my deployment he drops both Trygons in alongside 20 Genestealers, who can then re-roll their charges. Charge the Trygons in first to soak up overwatch and follow up with Genestealers; 4 units means he's very likely to get a 9" charge in with the re-rolls. Meanwhile Swarmy is using his double-move ability to be pretty much in my face by Turn 2.

How on earth could I possibly counter this list? In both games the only shooting I got was Overwatch and melee capability is offset by him getting the charge and wiping most of me out first. I'm genuinely curious, as I've been playing for over 5 years yet this is one of the first lists I've come up against where I genuinely have no counter to it.

I mean, he's got a 50% chance to make a charge with re-rolls. You said 4 charges so only 2 should get in and those should only be on one unit since you said he uses a unit to absorb overwatch. Make sure you're spread out so he can't multi-charge.

So you lost a unit. Not that bad. On your turn, fall back any survivors and blow him to heck and back with your shooting now that he's no longer in combat. Genestealers work off invulnerables saves so put your volume of fire on them and then the big guns on Swarmy.

If you change them to Ultramarines and throw in Guilliman you can REALLY amplify this.

You either need bubblewrap, transport deployment or your own reserves. Those are probably your best bets.

Ork kommandos, and teleported infantry can do the exact same trick btw. A rerollable charge has a 49% chance of succeeding, as every Ork player know by heart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Scouts. 3 min-size squads with no upgrades. They are very useful to deny deepstrike or camp an objective.

Thinking at the moment but off hand your list seems tailored for killing meqs and their vehicle support like assbacks. Not enough weight of fire for 60 genestealers.

At a glance...you need more shots and less super-tank-killers (your whole list seems aimed at heavy armour). Also, if you have access to other models, anything you can keep off the board is great.

Most of the time when I run my CSM list I can keep 50% off the table - it helps a lot against being Alpha struck. Jump pack lords, assault marines, terminators, etc.

All of that being said...NIds look incredibly strong with their codex and I doubt the basic Marine codex can do much about it in most games.

Another list crammed full of multimeltas, lascannons, plasma, and missile launchers losing to hordes.

This is why I say it seems like Land Raiders are overcosted. Because people are bringing lists like this.

Oh come on people, really? You think this is too much anti-tank? The Tyranid list is about 1850-2000 points depending on options.

What would you bring, one battle cannon for all your anti-tank needs?

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Oh come on people, really? You think this is too much anti-tank? The Tyranid list is about 1850-2000 points depending on options.

What would you bring, one battle cannon for all your anti-tank needs?

That's ridiculous. The world doesn't revolve around extremes. Clearly he'll need to keep some big guns for those big monsters. Just some adjustments needed to deal with 60 stealers might help.

Still. I'm an ork player. I can perform this tyranid player's strategy more efficiently with more bodies and whole whack load more on my second turn with only offering one warboss as worthwhile target for an antitank gun (after I'm done putting 150 bodies as closer targets). That's if I bother to bring one.

I am still of the opinion that TAC is dead in a game where armies vary from four bane blades at 2k to 250 orks/guardsmen at 2k

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am still of the opinion that TAC is dead in a game where armies vary from four bane blades at 2k to 250 orks/guardsmen at 2k

Four baneblades lose on missions. You really need infantry to secure objectives. A four baneblade-list will tend to be behind on VPs by turn 2.

I've always considered TAC lists to be mythical. There's more armies totaling more options then a given single army is able to field on the table. Can't cover it all with a single list. I like needing to change my lists around.

Caveat: if the system has tolerable balance.

Your Tactical Marines are one issue. Leave them out and get Scouts instead. Use the saved points for more Sternguard.

pismakron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am still of the opinion that TAC is dead in a game where armies vary from four bane blades at 2k to 250 orks/guardsmen at 2k

Four baneblades lose on missions. You really need infantry to secure objectives. A four baneblade-list will tend to be behind on VPs by turn 2.

You realize the baneblade can completely cover an objective marker and make it impossible to contest it, right?

At any rate, OP needs more assbacks because there is not nearly enough ROF to kill genestealers as other people have said. Though another huge problem is that he doesn't have jack for a screen; whatever the genestealers charge into is going to suck to lose. Unfortunately he's Space Marines and has to ally in Guard for a decent screen.

You have no ability to stop an alpha strike which is coming down right on your head. You need to bring scouts to push back his alpha strike 18" and give yourself some breathing room and an extra turn of shooting.

Also if he is charging in SL first turn that is just bizarre.

pismakron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am still of the opinion that TAC is dead in a game where armies vary from four bane blades at 2k to 250 orks/guardsmen at 2k

Four baneblades lose on missions. You really need infantry to secure objectives. A four baneblade-list will tend to be behind on VPs by turn 2.

Yeah I routinely win on missions with a 3-Baneblade company, so this is false.

It's because the Baneblade is large enough to completely sit on an objective, keeping the enemy away from 3" from the center. So just park on them and call it a day.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am still of the opinion that TAC is dead in a game where armies vary from four bane blades at 2k to 250 orks/guardsmen at 2k

Four baneblades lose on missions. You really need infantry to secure objectives. A four baneblade-list will tend to be behind on VPs by turn 2.

Yeah I routinely win on missions with a 3-Baneblade company, so this is false.

It's because the Baneblade is large enough to completely sit on an objective, keeping the enemy away from 3" from the center. So just park on them and call it a day.

This does not sound like a good plan in Malestrom missions at all.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am still of the opinion that TAC is dead in a game where armies vary from four bane blades at 2k to 250 orks/guardsmen at 2k

Four baneblades lose on missions. You really need infantry to secure objectives. A four baneblade-list will tend to be behind on VPs by turn 2.

Yeah I routinely win on missions with a 3-Baneblade company, so this is false.

It's because the Baneblade is large enough to completely sit on an objective, keeping the enemy away from 3" from the center. So just park on them and call it a day.

This does not sound like a good plan in Malestrom missions at all.

Why not?

I think I found Repulsor maybe pretty good against charge out of Deep Strike Genestealer, especially when you have Guilliman nearby. This thing has lots of guns to give high volume of shots, under the buff of Guilliman, you might be seeing 5-6 Genestealers dead in overwatch, after that, good luck rolling 11+ for the charge due to repulsor field.

Op, I like your list a lot honesty. But you need scouts. 3 squads of 5, as cheap as possible. These are your bubble rap / alpha protection. And yeah, they will probably die. Paint them in red shirts and let them do what they do. They will take that alpha strike and then you unload. Multimeltas will take out a trygon without a problem hopefully, heavy bolters and tacticals with bolters can deal with genestealers, and depending on what becomes the quicker threat (genestealers use frag missiles, swarmlord or tervigon use krak).

Will you garuntee a win? No, but it will be one hell of a fight.

The issue is finding a way to get the points for those scouts. Something is going to have to give. I would probably start by removing those laz cannons from the tacticals, you need more bodies to deal with them genestealers and laz cannons are expensive.

There isn't a single flamer in your list. Add a few of those and it may help as well.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
There isn't a single flamer in your list. Add a few of those and it may help as well.

Flamers are bad, this is bad advice. You want assault cannon razorbacks to mow down the genestealers.

Valkyrie wrote:Last week I played my first game against 8th Tyranids, in fact my first game against them for quite a while. I played my standard SM list, a list which while quite strong (It's beat a few varied armies, including killing Mortarion on Turn 1), it stood absolutely no chance against these 'Nids.

My List
Lias Issodon
Librarian, Combi-Flamer
Lieutenant

5x Sternguard Veterans

10x Tactical Marines, Plasma, Combi-Plasma and Lascannon
10x Tactical Marines, Plasma, Combi-Plasma and Lascannon
10x Tactical Marines, Plasma, Combi-Plasma and Lascannon

5x Devastator Marines, 4x Multi-Meltas
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Missile Launchers
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Heavy Bolters


His List
Swarmlord
Broodlord

20x Genestealers
20x Genestealers
20x Genestealers

Trygon Prime
Trygon Prime
Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon


I played 2 games with him and by the end of Turn 1 I was pretty much beyond getting even a draw. Regardless of my deployment he drops both Trygons in alongside 20 Genestealers, who can then re-roll their charges. Charge the Trygons in first to soak up overwatch and follow up with Genestealers; 4 units means he's very likely to get a 9" charge in with the re-rolls. Meanwhile Swarmy is using his double-move ability to be pretty much in my face by Turn 2.

How on earth could I possibly counter this list? In both games the only shooting I got was Overwatch and melee capability is offset by him getting the charge and wiping most of me out first. I'm genuinely curious, as I've been playing for over 5 years yet this is one of the first lists I've come up against where I genuinely have no counter to it.

I would drop your devastators, especially the Multimelta ones.

The Genestealers are pretty scary, however, you can deal with it. A good starting place would be to consider how you can prevent his turn 1 charge from destroying your valuable units that will shoot down his Genestealers and his monsters. Scouts, as someone suggested, are definitely a good choice. Also, I think it's a no-go on Tacticals in squads greater than minimum.

I would look into possibly replacing your HB Devastators with an Assault Cannon Razorback, and the MM Devs with anything.

ProwlerPC wrote:I've always considered TAC lists to be mythical. There's more armies totaling more options then a given single army is able to field on the table. Can't cover it all with a single list. I like needing to change my lists around.

Caveat: if the system has tolerable balance.

My lists are all "Take all Comers". And they work quite well, all things considered, at taking all comers.

As a Tyranid player, I will give you the key to winning . It's so obvious that I'm surprised none has said it yet.

You just need flyers, this tyranid list is very melee heavy. A couple of flyers would crush this list. Tyrannofex only has bs 4+, would be hitting on 5s , not great.

CovenantGuardian wrote:
As a Tyranid player, I will give you the key to winning . It's so obvious that I'm surprised none has said it yet.

You just need flyers, this tyranid list is very melee heavy. A couple of flyers would crush this list. Tyrannofex only has bs 4+, would be hitting on 5s , not great.

I would be careful, it's still powerful enough to destroy all ground presence out from underneath a Stormraven, thus ending the game.

Split your TAC marines, 6 squads of 5 are much better than 3 squads of 10

Absorb Sternguards into TAC squad and use the Lascannons as another Devastator unit ALSO - Cherub, never, ever forget using those little angels, they provide a significant boost to damage output turn 1


There you go, the 6 TAC squads will proide a barrier and you'll get 2 turns of shooting


Lias Issodon is best vs shooty armies, he's a waste vs melee, play him as a standard Captain and use 3 CP strategem for the same re-roll all to hit effect

Save 121 points, drop combi-plasmas from TAC squads and you have points enough for another Devastator squad


There you go, with a little rearranging of squads you end up having:

Cptain
Librarian
Lieutenant

6 X Tactical Marines (5 models)

5x Devastator Marines, 4x Multi-Meltas
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Missile Launchers
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Heavy Bolters
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Lascannons
5x Devastator Marines, 4x Plasma Cannons


Lascannon + Missile Devastators can kill Swarmy turn 1, instead of in 2 turns when you have them in Tactical squads (because of Cherub and +1 to hit from Devastator Sergeant)

Extra plasma Cannon Devastator Squad you get also gifts you a Broodlord kill

If you have an option to, switch Librarian to an Aggressor squad, they absolutely wreck hordes

You have an option to cluster in diffterrain so that he will need a 11' charge which is around 16% with re-rolls. Not great odds. So you'll have at least an extra turn to shoot your bolters and heavy bolters at genestealers and lc+multimeltas at trygons.
If you're using multi-level ruins you can even ignore his big bugs cause they can't charge 2-d floor. Small elite armies have a lot of advantages when it comes to positioning. Use them.

Battalion+patrol detachments?

That's rather static army though basically geared up against that one army and going to lose to other armies especially on scenarios. Hell even the tyranid army could win against this by scenario if you aren't using the rulebook ones that are basically "who tables opponent wins".

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:
As a Tyranid player, I will give you the key to winning . It's so obvious that I'm surprised none has said it yet.

You just need flyers, this tyranid list is very melee heavy. A couple of flyers would crush this list. Tyrannofex only has bs 4+, would be hitting on 5s , not great.

I would be careful, it's still powerful enough to destroy all ground presence out from underneath a Stormraven, thus ending the game.

You could always take the cheesy route and use the stormravens to screen for your units on turn one. Can't charge the fliers but can't reach what's behind them because of their bases, it shuts off an assault-based alpha strike entirely.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:
As a Tyranid player, I will give you the key to winning . It's so obvious that I'm surprised none has said it yet.

You just need flyers, this tyranid list is very melee heavy. A couple of flyers would crush this list. Tyrannofex only has bs 4+, would be hitting on 5s , not great.

I would be careful, it's still powerful enough to destroy all ground presence out from underneath a Stormraven, thus ending the game.

You could always take the cheesy route and use the stormravens to screen for your units on turn one. Can't charge the fliers but can't reach what's behind them because of their bases, it shuts off an assault-based alpha strike entirely.

Now that's just evil

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You could always take the cheesy route and use the stormravens to screen for your units on turn one. Can't charge the fliers but can't reach what's behind them because of their bases, it shuts off an assault-based alpha strike entirely.

Heh thanks for the tip! I'm playing tomorrow scenario that seems like custom made to screw IG so this could be helpful seeing unless I deploy like within 6" of my table edge enemy gets automatic turn 1 charge. If I get to deploy first vendetta gets to go to front line.