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I mean sure I could balance the game in 1 minute.

Throw out all buffs, all units become re-skinned tactical marines, with unit size 10 and no options except bolters. Players alternate unit activation, tables have no terrain.

Game is basically balanced.

Now lets add all the options players want, and try to do that again, it ceases to be easy every option you add makes it harder.

especially if we are talking about good internal and cross faction balance.

I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Yes, and unit costings can be a very sensitive thing.

Look at conscripts: at 3ppm, too powerful (apparently), at 4ppm: gone from the game, lol.

I think guardsmen at 5 ppm get conscripts back in the game. Guardsmen are a 5 point model, I think. 5+ armor is greatly improved, as is 24" S3.

And there are several undercosted units in the new Tyranid codex as well. Dakkafex, I'm looking at you.

Martel732 wrote:
I think guardsmen at 5 ppm get conscripts back in the game. Guardsmen are a 5 point model, I think. 5+ armor is greatly improved, as is 24" S3.

And there are several undercosted units in the new Tyranid codex as well. Dakkafex, I'm looking at you.

So... two troop choices that would never be fielded again. At least we'd still have tempestus before you rebalanced them on your way out.

Hyperbole at its finest. 5 ppm guardsmen are completely fair compared to termagants and boyz. 5 pts for 5+ armor model is still quite good, just not the gold standard for all troops.

Martel732 wrote:
Hyperbole at its finest. 5 ppm guardsmen are completely fair compared to termagants and boyz.

Perhaps Termagants and Boyz are overcosted.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Yes, and unit costings can be a very sensitive thing.

Look at conscripts: at 3ppm, too powerful (apparently), at 4ppm: gone from the game, lol.

I actually thought the codex did an okay job at fixing the Conscript issue, but the Commisar needs a slight buff now. That's always the issue with hyperbole, especially when GW may or may not be listening to feedback. Heck, there's still people that think Eldar should still suffer for their sins in 6th/7th.

Perhaps, but guardsmen look like the outlier, not every other troop. I'm not even looking at elite infantry here, who are dramatically inferior to even 5 pt guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Yes, and unit costings can be a very sensitive thing.

Look at conscripts: at 3ppm, too powerful (apparently), at 4ppm: gone from the game, lol.

I actually thought the codex did an okay job at fixing the Conscript issue, but the Commisar needs a slight buff now. That's always the issue with hyperbole, especially when GW may or may not be listening to feedback. Heck, there's still people that think Eldar should still suffer for their sins in 6th/7th.

Eldar have never truly paid back 2nd ed karma, much less 6/7th.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Yes, and unit costings can be a very sensitive thing.

Look at conscripts: at 3ppm, too powerful (apparently), at 4ppm: gone from the game, lol.

I actually thought the codex did an okay job at fixing the Conscript issue, but the Commisar needs a slight buff now. That's always the issue with hyperbole, especially when GW may or may not be listening to feedback. Heck, there's still people that think Eldar should still suffer for their sins in 6th/7th.

I think they overcommitted to killing conscripts and indirectly gutted other things.

E.G. at 3PPM while passing Orders on a 4+ only and having a 50-man max squad size, an all-conscript Valhallan theme army is still viable, because they're cheap. At 4ppm, but getting complete orders and having a 50-man max squad size, the Valhallan army is still viable. But at 4ppm while only getting Orders on a 4+, and only having a 30 man max squad size, well, at that point it's better to take 3 Infantry Squads than 30 conscripts.

Plus the Commissar nerf, which means Valhallans, Mordians, and Catachans will never bring them again, while Iyanden gets the same thing as an Army Trait and the Tyranids get a better thing as an Army Special Rule is just silly.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Yes, and unit costings can be a very sensitive thing.

Look at conscripts: at 3ppm, too powerful (apparently), at 4ppm: gone from the game, lol.

I actually thought the codex did an okay job at fixing the Conscript issue, but the Commisar needs a slight buff now. That's always the issue with hyperbole, especially when GW may or may not be listening to feedback. Heck, there's still people that think Eldar should still suffer for their sins in 6th/7th.

I think they overcommitted to killing conscripts and indirectly gutted other things.

E.G. at 3PPM while passing Orders on a 4+ only and having a 50-man max squad size, an all-conscript Valhallan theme army is still viable, because they're cheap. At 4ppm, but getting complete orders and having a 50-man max squad size, the Valhallan army is still viable. But at 4ppm while only getting Orders on a 4+, and only having a 30 man max squad size, well, at that point it's better to take 3 Infantry Squads than 30 conscripts.

Plus the Commissar nerf, which means Valhallans, Mordians, and Catachans will never bring them again, while Iyanden gets the same thing as an Army Trait and the Tyranids get a better thing as an Army Special Rule is just silly.

Tyranids have to pay a lot more than 30 points to do the same thing on top of most of those units being easy to actually shoot at. Eldar ruin everyone's fun again though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Yes, and unit costings can be a very sensitive thing.

Look at conscripts: at 3ppm, too powerful (apparently), at 4ppm: gone from the game, lol.

I actually thought the codex did an okay job at fixing the Conscript issue, but the Commisar needs a slight buff now. That's always the issue with hyperbole, especially when GW may or may not be listening to feedback. Heck, there's still people that think Eldar should still suffer for their sins in 6th/7th.

I think they overcommitted to killing conscripts and indirectly gutted other things.

E.G. at 3PPM while passing Orders on a 4+ only and having a 50-man max squad size, an all-conscript Valhallan theme army is still viable, because they're cheap. At 4ppm, but getting complete orders and having a 50-man max squad size, the Valhallan army is still viable. But at 4ppm while only getting Orders on a 4+, and only having a 30 man max squad size, well, at that point it's better to take 3 Infantry Squads than 30 conscripts.

Plus the Commissar nerf, which means Valhallans, Mordians, and Catachans will never bring them again, while Iyanden gets the same thing as an Army Trait and the Tyranids get a better thing as an Army Special Rule is just silly.

They did exactly what I said they should - raise the cost of all AM infantry. 4 pt models aren't actually supposed to be doing damage or getting orders cast - they are supposed to die.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the best I could do in a day is get rid of the most obvious miscostings. But I'm not sure how many of those there even are.

Yes, and unit costings can be a very sensitive thing.

Look at conscripts: at 3ppm, too powerful (apparently), at 4ppm: gone from the game, lol.

We live in a world of extremes.

Its either too good so always take, or its not good at all and never take. 4 points per game isn't bad. Its just not really good anymore. So don't take it.

The game is asymetric. What Iyanden got is only similar to Commisars superficially.

When you lose 3 guys in a 5-man CWE squad, you could lose 1 more from a roll of a 6 - so the trait does nothing. When you lose 4 guys out of a 5-man squad, you lose 1 guy on a 5 or 6 - so the trait does nothing. 5-man CWE squads can't lose more than 1 guy already, pre-trait.

10mans are typically Guardians or a deathstar.

Deathstars have other ways to handle Morale, and if not, you might save 2-3 guys in a whole game in that 10man unit (a single 10-man cant' take enough casualties to lose more than 1 guy in more than 1 round before being wiped).

Guardians are still 8ppm - twice what IG pay. If you're playing a lot of them, it helps. But you're still not running several 30mans. Further, if Guardians are taking enough firepower to force a scary Morale check, it'll rarely be little enough to leave enough Guardians standing to be a threat.

So CWE can't make use of it the way IG could. It rarely ever can matter. And, when it can, typically only saves you a couple models a game - at the cost of what could be a better trait.

I go so far in depth on this one point (is it unfair for Iyanden to get what IG lost), because it's a great case study in asymetry. Much like how Infiltrate is a much bigger deal for AL than RG, not all rules affect everyone equally.

Imagine an attribute that said "Your Infantry cannot be wounded on better than a 4+". Would you care much if a SM Chapter got it? But imagine how broken that'd be if IG or CWE got it?

Guardians are 8 ppm? Guardsmen should definitely be 5 ppm, then.

Martel732 wrote:
Guardians are 8 ppm? Guardsmen should definitely be 5 ppm, then.

Good thing we got chapter approved to fix all tha--oh... OH... well then, nevermind.

I'm expecting that hammer to drop in March, with the smite hammer.

Do you think space marines will get chapter traits on their vehicles?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you think space marines will get chapter traits on their vehicles?

No, I doubt it, although the wording of the Blood Angels trait as it's presented in the preview doesn't specifically call out Infantry/Dreads, it simply states that units with the trait get the ability.

That being said I expect only infantry and dreadnoughts to have the trait.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you think space marines will get chapter traits on their vehicles?

They already do get chapter tactics on their vehicles....






...all the vehicles with 'Dreadnought' in the name at least.

Honestly it makes sense for Eldar to be able to apply their attributes to their vehicles, being more advanced and semi-living compared to the metal bawkes on the lesser races. Necrons probably should too, maybe *maybe* T'au.
The only reason Dreadnoughts should get to use the chapter tactics is because there is a half-dread marine wired into it. Rhinos and Storm Ravens do not have systems that are integrated into the actual pilot in the same manner. And before anyone mentions the Machine Spirit, AI is not the same. Why else do you think servo skulls are made with human brains instead of computers?

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you think space marines will get chapter traits on their vehicles?

They already do get chapter tactics on their vehicles....






...all the vehicles with 'Dreadnought' in the name at least.

Honestly it makes sense for Eldar to be able to apply their attributes to their vehicles, being more advanced and semi-living compared to the metal bawkes on the lesser races. Necrons probably should too, maybe *maybe* T'au.
The only reason Dreadnoughts should get to use the chapter tactics is because there is a half-dread marine wired into it. Rhinos and Storm Ravens do not have systems that are that integrated into the actual pilot. And before anyone mentions the Machine Spirit, AI is not the same. Why else do you think servo skulls are made with human brains instead of computers?

-

To be fair, the difference between an "AI" and "human brain being used as a CPU" is really not that different.

The hardware an intelligence is running on has very little to do with the intelligence itself.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wow - incredible analogy. Balancing a dice game which can be figured through statistics/math is equal to a 60 years long human relocation and battle for a holy land which has been fought over for centuries. Being an ork player I'd think you'd be the first one agreeing that -1 to hit army traits are a problem. The game is hard to balance though so...I guess we should give GW a break on that.

Excellent. Please math out the points for a reroll to hit aura.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you think space marines will get chapter traits on their vehicles?

They already do get chapter tactics on their vehicles....






...all the vehicles with 'Dreadnought' in the name at least.

Honestly it makes sense for Eldar to be able to apply their attributes to their vehicles, being more advanced and semi-living compared to the metal bawkes on the lesser races. Necrons probably should too, maybe *maybe* T'au.
The only reason Dreadnoughts should get to use the chapter tactics is because there is a half-dread marine wired into it. Rhinos and Storm Ravens do not have systems that are integrated into the actual pilot in the same manner. And before anyone mentions the Machine Spirit, AI is not the same. Why else do you think servo skulls are made with human brains instead of computers?

-

An eldar tank should be superior to a human one - I agree with that. It should come in the form of being able to shoot on the move with no penalty - being faster - and having advanced shielding. Eldar tanks already have that. I'd be okay with it if they paid additional for it but they don't. It's a hand out. A -1 to hit hand out is nothing to snuff at ether. Plus - IG tanks get traits and they are just far inferior humans compared to marines - if you claim it make sense for eldar and not marines - it must not make sense to you that AM guys get traits.

What baffles me is marines were the first army to get army traits. Now they are the only army to have army traits that only affect half of their army. That makes no sense to me.


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Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wow - incredible analogy. Balancing a dice game which can be figured through statistics/math is equal to a 60 years long human relocation and battle for a holy land which has been fought over for centuries. Being an ork player I'd think you'd be the first one agreeing that -1 to hit army traits are a problem. The game is hard to balance though so...I guess we should give GW a break on that.

Excellent. Please math out the points for a reroll to hit aura.

Considering almost every army has access to 3+ reroll 1's to hit with their most efficient shooters - it is pretty easy to call that a wash - I'd be happy to see auras removed from the game entirely though. It might help games get past turn 3. However - then marines would go from being at/near the bottom to being absolutely terrible because auras are about the only thing marines do better than other armies.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

An eldar tank should be superior to a human one - I agree with that. It should come in the form of being able to shoot on the move with no penalty - being faster - and having advanced shielding. Eldar tanks already have that. I'd be okay with it if they paid additional for it but they don't. It's a hand out. A -1 to hit hand out is nothing to snuff at ether. Plus - IG tanks get traits and they are just far inferior humans compared to marines - if you claim it make sense for eldar and not marines - it must not make sense to you that AM guys get traits.

What baffles me is marines were the first army to get army traits. Now they are the only army to have army traits that only affect half of their army. That makes no sense to me

.

Well, first of all, Eldar tanks do suffer -1 to hit for moving, it's just that they have 1 assault weapon to choose instead of 100% heavy weapon options. But otherwise, I can agree with the premise.
Fieldcraft probably shouldn't apply to a thing that is too big to be "stealthy". But the Iyanden attribute specifically applies to stuff made of wraithbone, which all the vehicles are.

At the end of the day, I feel like GW is making decisions intentionally, whether we agree with or can justify those decisions or not is up to us

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

An eldar tank should be superior to a human one - I agree with that. It should come in the form of being able to shoot on the move with no penalty - being faster - and having advanced shielding. Eldar tanks already have that. I'd be okay with it if they paid additional for it but they don't. It's a hand out. A -1 to hit hand out is nothing to snuff at ether. Plus - IG tanks get traits and they are just far inferior humans compared to marines - if you claim it make sense for eldar and not marines - it must not make sense to you that AM guys get traits.

What baffles me is marines were the first army to get army traits. Now they are the only army to have army traits that only affect half of their army. That makes no sense to me

.

Well, first of all, Eldar tanks do suffer -1 to hit for moving, it's just that they have 1 assault weapon to choose instead of 100% heavy weapon options. But otherwise, I can agree with the premise.
Fieldcraft probably shouldn't apply to a thing that is too big to be "stealthy". But the Iyanden attribute specifically applies to stuff made of wraithbone, which all the vehicles are.

At the end of the day, I feel like GW is making decisions intentionally, whether we agree with or can justify those decisions or not is up to us

-

You can buy a crystal targeting matrix - why would you though? the best load out is all assault weapons anyways. I think you are giving GW too much credit. It seems like an army trait lottery with wild guess for the points costs. Even in the chapter approved leaks you see no rational about the points costs.

Malific lords for example were obviously OP at 30 points but compared to a spirit seer at 45 points they are pretty balanced - so they made it 80 points? Another crazy example is a revenant titan for the eldar. It was 1200 points now its 2000. At 1200 points it was criminally over costed - it played like a 600-700 point model. Also - space marine centurions aren't mentioned in the points leaks and I've seen the PDF - they aren't getting dropped in points - currently it's at the bottom of a pile of unplayable units in the space marine arsenal. I don't see a lot of intellgent decisions being made by GW's balance team. If such a thing exists.

The Fieldcraft - in all its forms - could probably be better if it specified Infantry, and maybe Bikes.

But if it got taken from Dreads, there'd be hell to pay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CTM only matters if you fire at the closest. If you want to use your heavy weapons on anything but the chaff they're shoving in your face, it does nothing.

The all-assault is a worthwhile loadout, but that means no Brightlances (our not-quite-Lascannon option) or any other anti-heavy-stuff weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Considering almost every army has access to 3+ reroll 1's to hit with their most efficient shooters - it is pretty easy to call that a wash - I'd be happy to see auras removed from the game entirely though. It might help games get past turn 3. However - then marines would go from being at/near the bottom to being absolutely terrible because auras are about the only thing marines do better than other armies.

Sweet! A wash! RG is like a double wash then, because SM hit on 3s?

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you think space marines will get chapter traits on their vehicles?

They already do get chapter tactics on their vehicles....






...all the vehicles with 'Dreadnought' in the name at least.

Honestly it makes sense for Eldar to be able to apply their attributes to their vehicles, being more advanced and semi-living compared to the metal bawkes on the lesser races. Necrons probably should too, maybe *maybe* T'au.
The only reason Dreadnoughts should get to use the chapter tactics is because there is a half-dread marine wired into it. Rhinos and Storm Ravens do not have systems that are integrated into the actual pilot in the same manner. And before anyone mentions the Machine Spirit, AI is not the same. Why else do you think servo skulls are made with human brains instead of computers?

-

Ah yes, because Iron Hands no longer getting anything to make vehicles more durable makes sense, as well as Imperial Fists forgetting how to ignore cover, even with that little dude popping from the top of a Rhino and firing a Storm Bolter. Which no longer ignores cover simply because he's not on foot.

Super awesome justifications. Just because Eldar are more advanced. How didn't I already think of that? Brilliant post, Galef.

The -1 to hit trait can be negated by getting to within 12".

... Or because Chapter Tactics are tactics that affect the members of the Chapter - but not necessarily the cars they drive.

... Or because Uthwe Wraithbone is affected by psyker energies because Wraithbone is a manifestation of the Warp itself.

... Or because vehicles piloted by prescient pilots are more likely to be affected by the pilots prescience than vehicles driven by cybernetically enhanced pilots are likely to have redundant or hardened systems built into the pilot themselves.

We could just dismiss it as "CWE therefore OP", certainly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I put a metal plate in my foot, does that mean I can't get a flat tire on my car anymore?