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 Galas wrote:
Can we stop with the random fluff justifications for tactics to apply in some cases to vehicles and in others don't?

It is just a random rules inconsistence, don't try to pass it as some kind of "yeah they did this because of fluff"

I'm not - I am only arguing for balance purpose. If eldar/AM vehicles and flyers are affected by their traits - everyone should be. Including CSM - all chapters of marines. I'd be fine if they did it like with AM and made special traits within the main trait that only affected vehicles. Just to reiterate too - I don't think -1 to hit should be an army trait for anyone.


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 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Considering almost every army has access to 3+ reroll 1's to hit with their most efficient shooters - it is pretty easy to call that a wash - I'd be happy to see auras removed from the game entirely though. It might help games get past turn 3. However - then marines would go from being at/near the bottom to being absolutely terrible because auras are about the only thing marines do better than other armies.

Sweet! A wash! RG is like a double wash then, because SM hit on 3s?

RG would be a wash - except he also rerolls wounds. Which is problematic for balance. Yet marines still under-perform against armies who don't have this buff on the big stage so clearly marines need help - I'd start with army traits on the whole army. On the topic though - I don't think -1 to hit should be one of those options. It shouldn't be an option for anyone. Too strong.

"Marines still under perform against armies who dont have this buff on the big stage, clearly marines need help"
Yeah im gonna need a source on that.

And its not that strong, we have been saying this whole thread deep strike is a thing, fliers, are a thing, DROP PODS, are a thing, all put you at 9 inches, they dont get a -1 to hit anymore. Hell Psykers, that -1 wont do anything against a mortal wound.

Drop pods aren't actually a thing anymore. Deep striking any unit you want for free is a thing now (1 command point) Marines can't do this. In fact our 80ish point drops pods have more restrictions than free deep strike from other armies. Eldar do it / tyranids do it. If you are spending real points to do it - you are losing - that is a fact. Screening units are also a thing - deep strike can put you within 9 inch of things they are okay with you being 12 inches from. You wont be 12" from their flyers or dark reapers I assure you.

So this is not actually about the -1 to hit, this is about you getting out played by someone with dark reapers and you cry OP. Like every thread you make is complaining about a unit.

-1 to hit is not that strong. There are plenty of ways to deal with it, and counter it. From reading this thread, this entire rant can be summed up with one sentence, "Get gud" Seriously, there are ways around it, if you dont want to use it, thats your own fault.

 Xenomancers wrote:


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 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Considering almost every army has access to 3+ reroll 1's to hit with their most efficient shooters - it is pretty easy to call that a wash - I'd be happy to see auras removed from the game entirely though. It might help games get past turn 3. However - then marines would go from being at/near the bottom to being absolutely terrible because auras are about the only thing marines do better than other armies.

Sweet! A wash! RG is like a double wash then, because SM hit on 3s?

RG would be a wash - except he also rerolls wounds. Which is problematic for balance. Yet marines still under-perform against armies who don't have this buff on the big stage so clearly marines need help - I'd start with army traits on the whole army. On the topic though - I don't think -1 to hit should be one of those options. It shouldn't be an option for anyone. Too strong.

"Marines still under perform against armies who dont have this buff on the big stage, clearly marines need help"
Yeah im gonna need a source on that.

And its not that strong, we have been saying this whole thread deep strike is a thing, fliers, are a thing, DROP PODS, are a thing, all put you at 9 inches, they dont get a -1 to hit anymore. Hell Psykers, that -1 wont do anything against a mortal wound.

Drop pods aren't actually a thing anymore. Deep striking any unit you want for free is a thing now (1 command point) Marines can't do this. In fact our 80ish point drops pods have more restrictions than free deep strike from other armies. Eldar do it / tyranids do it. If you are spending real points to do it - you are losing - that is a fact. Screening units are also a thing - deep strike can put you within 9 inch of things they are okay with you being 12 inches from. You wont be 12" from their flyers or dark reapers I assure you.

Raven Guard would like a word with you. Marines absolutely can "deep strike" for 1 CP., or take plenty of units that have inherent deepstrike, or take pods, OR take Issodon....seriously Marines are not lacking for advanced deployment options.

Wait, when did Marines lose their Infiltrate stratagem? And when did Drop Pods get actually removed from the codex? And when did CWE get a screening unit?

On a mathhammer standpoint, and on a first look, I thought -1 to hit was OP, even when it was only infantry/dreads. I still think it's too good for CWE. But a lot of people have brought up a lot of good points about it being good for the game as a whole.

If you want to show that it's bad for the game as a whole, perhaps try fewer emotive falsehoods, and actually stick to the facts?

CWE can deepstrike 1 unit for 1 CP, or 2 for 3 CP. They cannot deepstrike 3, outside units that natively have deepstrike - Hawks Spiders, Rangers. And they cant deepstrike both Vehicles and Infantry - one or the the other (even if they pay 3 CP)

Marines can Infiltrate as RG 1 unit per CP. No limit. If they don't want to do that, they can Pod in their Infantry - although the cost is high enough that most would rathe rdo something else instead. Outside the Pod, they still have some native Deep Strike units of their own.

These are asymetric, but each side has strengths and weeknesses. Handwaving away oen faction's strenghts and the other's weeknesses doesn't help us figure anything out.

(I still think Alaitoc is too strong, but I'm no longer against other factions having that -1 to hit.)

morgoth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
CQC is largely irrelevant in 8th, luckily for Eldar.

How can that be true with all the armies that can simply 1-turn charge, and massive improvement to some of them?

Also, is this still true in a post-conscript meta?

Because your units just leave combat like nothing happened and then shoot the CQC units off the table.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Can we stop with the random fluff justifications for tactics to apply in some cases to vehicles and in others don't?

It is just a random rules inconsistence, don't try to pass it as some kind of "yeah they did this because of fluff"

I'm not - I am only arguing for balance purpose. If eldar/AM vehicles and flyers are affected by their traits - everyone should be. Including CSM - all chapters of marines. I'd be fine if they did it like with AM and made special traits within the main trait that only affected vehicles. Just to reiterate too - I don't think -1 to hit should be an army trait for anyone.

If the fact that AM/Eldar vehicles get access to trait is included in their point cost, then there's no problem with balance.
If you're arguing that SM vehicles should all get access to CT for free, then I don't see how that would be in pursuit of balance.

2 days have passed. 40k still lacks balance.

If you really want to argue that marines can deepstrike by a complete overpriced drop pod...we can just stop having this discussion - that is a completely nonviable strategy because paying 80 points for something other armies do for free is obviously nonviable.

Also the RAVEN GUARD SPECIFIC stratagem is not deep strike but special infiltrate. It is only helpful if you go first - it doesn't give you alpha strike protection.


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 koooaei wrote:
2 days have passed. 40k still lacks balance.

GW would have to pay me to do that.


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fresus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Can we stop with the random fluff justifications for tactics to apply in some cases to vehicles and in others don't?

It is just a random rules inconsistence, don't try to pass it as some kind of "yeah they did this because of fluff"

I'm not - I am only arguing for balance purpose. If eldar/AM vehicles and flyers are affected by their traits - everyone should be. Including CSM - all chapters of marines. I'd be fine if they did it like with AM and made special traits within the main trait that only affected vehicles. Just to reiterate too - I don't think -1 to hit should be an army trait for anyone.

If the fact that AM/Eldar vehicles get access to trait is included in their point cost, then there's no problem with balance.
If you're arguing that SM vehicles should all get access to CT for free, then I don't see how that would be in pursuit of balance.

What kind of clownish argument is that? Every army gets army traits for free.

Infiltrate is better and worse than Deep Strike. For Berzerkers and many CWE units, Infiltrate would be better. But for RG, DS would be better. But I think it's fairly fair to say unlimited use of 1CP per unit Infiltrate is at least as good, if not better, than being able to DS 1 or 2 units for 1 or 3 CP.

Regardless, other armies don't do it for "free". It costs CP, and for CWE it also costs opportunity. That point is flat out wrong.

Pods are inviable. Because other options are more viable. So Marines can Deep Strike with Pods, but choosing not to is almost always the better option. Because Pods aren't the only way to get within 12". Pods should be cheaper, but you can choose to pay points for DS where most factions cannot.

Also, there are a lot of uses of Infiltrate if you go second. Nowhere near as good as if you go first, but hardly useless.

Disregarding RG as "Only 1 chapter" is fairly reasonable in many discussions, but not this one. This one is about Traits that *only affect one <chapter-equiv>". ONLY RG is the same as shouting ONLY ALAITOC. Both are true. And if one makes it irrelevant, how does the other not?

Bharring wrote:
Infiltrate is better and worse than Deep Strike. For Berzerkers and many CWE units, Infiltrate would be better. But for RG, DS would be better. But I think it's fairly fair to say unlimited use of 1CP per unit Infiltrate is at least as good, if not better, than being able to DS 1 or 2 units for 1 or 3 CP.

Regardless, other armies don't do it for "free". It costs CP, and for CWE it also costs opportunity. That point is flat out wrong.

Pods are inviable. Because other options are more viable. So Marines can Deep Strike with Pods, but choosing not to is almost always the better option. Because Pods aren't the only way to get within 12". Pods should be cheaper, but you can choose to pay points for DS where most factions cannot.

Also, there are a lot of uses of Infiltrate if you go second. Nowhere near as good as if you go first, but hardly useless.

Disregarding RG as "Only 1 chapter" is fairly reasonable in many discussions, but not this one. This one is about Traits that *only affect one <chapter-equiv>". ONLY RG is the same as shouting ONLY ALAITOC. Both are true. And if one makes it irrelevant, how does the other not?

Only ravengaurd can infiltrate per stratagem. Any craftworld can deepstrike any unit in the codex for 1 CP or 2 for 3. It's also worth mentioning where Aliatoc are the stand out best craft-world - RG are not the best marine chapter - that is Ultra marines. So if you want to chose the best army trait - you have to forgo using the best combos in ultra marines. This is all relevant from a balance perspective. If Ultramarines had -1 to hit - id be going after them with the same fervor even though they are my chapter - same would be true of AdM if mars had -1. Eldar is the only army thus far that it's best army trait has access to everything in the entire book that is any good.

As you stated early on, Roboute Gilleman is notable because he makes the non -1-to-hit subfaction better than the -1-to-hit subfaction.

So much of the angst is the "You have your -1 cake, but I can't have my -1 cake with my primarch cake"?

In other words, -1-to-hit is OP and gamebreaking, but it's not a problem on Marines because they have something even better?

Gilleman needs to be toned down. Alaitoc needs to be toned down. But if RG are so bad, why does their -1 need to be toned down? AL needs to be toned down, but that's Infiltrating Berzerkers who aren't likely to benefit from the -1, not the -1 itself.

It seems, more and more, the problem is not the -1-to-hit traits. It's sounding more and more balanced.


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Also - "Any unit" - please be more accurate in your rue specifications. Almost any unit. Fairly sure Avatar and Wraithlords, for example, cannot.

Gotta admit. If the BA codex is actually good instead of steaming poo (as it will probably be), all the -1 handwringing is going to be amusing to me.

Bharring wrote:
As you stated early on, Roboute Gilleman is notable because he makes the non -1-to-hit subfaction better than the -1-to-hit subfaction.

So much of the angst is the "You have your -1 cake, but I can't have my -1 cake with my primarch cake"?

In other words, -1-to-hit is OP and gamebreaking, but it's not a problem on Marines because they have something even better?

Gilleman needs to be toned down. Alaitoc needs to be toned down. But if RG are so bad, why does their -1 need to be toned down? AL needs to be toned down, but that's Infiltrating Berzerkers who aren't likely to benefit from the -1, not the -1 itself.

It seems, more and more, the problem is not the -1-to-hit traits. It's sounding more and more balanced.


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Also - "Any unit" - please be more accurate in your rue specifications. Almost any unit. Fairly sure Avatar and Wraithlords, for example, cannot.

My original post adressed super buffers as well. In essesnse - free power is a bad thing reroll hit and wound bubbles and -1 to hit blanket buffs are too strong. Originally I thought vehicals could use the stratagem but it's just vehicles with the fly keyword - which is practically everything - it is everything that you'd want to. It even works on super heavy grav tanks.

The point is you often make grand claims about what factions can and can't do, ignoring the actual rules themselves.

If you're saying that disclaimer means Gilleman isn't relevant to the conversation, then why bring him up when claiming we should only consider Alaitoc for CWE, but never consider RavenGuard for SM?

Bharring wrote:
The point is you often make grand claims about what factions can and can't do, ignoring the actual rules themselves.

If you're saying that disclaimer means Gilleman isn't relevant to the conversation, then why bring him up when claiming we should only consider Alaitoc for CWE, but never consider RavenGuard for SM?

Because from a balance perspective space marines are trash and eldar are top notch?

It's also meaningless that you can DS a wraithlord or an avatar - they are terrible units. Whats not terrible? Shinning spears.

I hate to be the one who addresses the elephant in the room but this is Xenomancers we're talking about. A brief walk through of his posts include endless posts whining about SMs being the worst codex, about how bad Grey Knights are, and other similar topics. There isn't really a reason to attempt to have a conversation at this point because one party isn't interested in actual discourse but rather repeating the same few talking points over and over.

Is -1 to hit a very obviously powerful army trait? Yes. Do some armies take more advantage of it than others? Yes. Do either of these mean that it's bad for the health of the game or game breaking? No. That's really all there is to it.

Classic Eldar drivel. My army is just better than everyone elses but it's not game breaking. That's just the way things are. I play eldar too btw. Busted things need to be called busted. That's just the way things are when you are playing beta 8th edition.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Drop pods aren't actually a thing anymore. Deep striking any unit you want for free is a thing now (1 command point) Marines can't do this. In fact our 80ish point drops pods have more restrictions than free deep strike from other armies. Eldar do it / tyranids do it. If you are spending real points to do it - you are losing - that is a fact. Screening units are also a thing - deep strike can put you within 9 inch of things they are okay with you being 12 inches from. You wont be 12" from their flyers or dark reapers I assure you.

Hasty Generalization(s), again.

This statement depends on how you value CP, if you have a lot of CP in your army, maybe this cost is negligible, if you're running a smaller number of CP you might consider this very expensive. This also depends on the drop vehicle, which may have tactical usefulness beyond it's delivery capabilities.

As usual, your mileage may vary.

 Galef wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I'd say Salamanders trait is much better than the -1 to hit.

Its important to understand that the marine version is heavily nerfed and only affects infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts where as Eldar have no such restriction.

Also important to understand is that many of the Eldar weapons are 12" range only and thus many units have to forego using the Alaitoc trait just to be able to shoot...at all.

It is pretty clear (to me at least) that GW intentionally made Chapter and Legion attributes only apply to certain units, while CWE gets detachment-wide access. It makes sense in the fluff, and GW writes rules based on fluff FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW. If it makes sense to GW, the rules will reflect it. I'm actually impressed that 8E is a balanced as it is so far.

And honestly, if you are unsatisfied that the rules are not 100% consistent because of this kind of decision making on GW's part, remember that GW in a model company, not a rules company. (despite having "Games" in their name). Also remember that this is supposed to be an asymmetrical system allowing diversity of factions/units. The only way to make the rules 100% consistent is to drop all armies but Marines of different colors.
If that is the kind of game you want, GW already supports it and it's 30K.

-

Ah, classic Eldar player. Marine players apparently don't have any justification via fluff but Eldar do.

If one set of players can defend Scatterbikes they can defend anything.

Drop pods will probably get another price drop in March with the first rebalancing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Because from a balance perspective space marines are trash and eldar are top notch?

Hasty Generalization, again.

You move the goalposts every time someone points out your various logical fallacies and move on to the next hasty generalization that supposedly "proves" your point.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods will probably get another price drop in March with the first rebalancing.

How did they miss it in this re-balancing? They probably haven't sold a drop pod in 6 months.


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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Drop pods aren't actually a thing anymore. Deep striking any unit you want for free is a thing now (1 command point) Marines can't do this. In fact our 80ish point drops pods have more restrictions than free deep strike from other armies. Eldar do it / tyranids do it. If you are spending real points to do it - you are losing - that is a fact. Screening units are also a thing - deep strike can put you within 9 inch of things they are okay with you being 12 inches from. You wont be 12" from their flyers or dark reapers I assure you.

Hasty Generalization(s), again.

This statement depends on how you value CP, if you have a lot of CP in your army, maybe this cost is negligible, if you're running a smaller number of CP you might consider this very expensive. This also depends on the drop vehicle, which may have tactical usefulness beyond it's delivery capabilities.

As usual, your mileage may vary.

A command point isn't worth 80 points. Plus. Command points lose value when you lose 80 points in units to use them. So you are devaluing a command point by wasting 80 points on a drop pod when another army does it for free. It's like baizaro world. 1 army has to spend 80 points to deep strike units and other armies can do it for free and people actually defend it.

They didn't miss it. They only dropped it 10 pts. They are probably going to stick with 10 pt increments in a lot of cases until a) spammed units stop being spammed b) units never used start getting used.

Expect more price increases for manticores and more drops for drop pods.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A command point isn't worth 80 points. Plus. Command points lose value when you lose 80 points in units to use them. So you are devaluing a command point by wasting 80 points on a drop pod when another army does it for free. It's like baizaro world. 1 army has to spend 80 points to deep strike units and other armies can do it for free and people actually defend it.

Hasty Generalization, again, and possibly some circular logic thrown in for fun.

Spending 1 CP to deep strike is not free.

Honestly, Drop Pods may need a points adjustment, but surrendering to hyperbole for every argument you make devalues every point you make.

I've been quite happy with using the Kharybdis Assault Claw, but it's good because it's very effective beyond it's ability to deliver troops. Is it still good at 375 points? We'll see, I own one, I'll play it again, we'll see, but I'm not running around like chicken little about it.

If you want to move the goalposts again and have a discussion about the relative value of CP within the context of individual armies versus the game as a whole, well, you should probably start a new thread for that as it promises to be a lengthy debate.

You get 3 command points for battle forged army - absolutely free.

As I said, drop pods will keep dropping as long as they are never used. That's the balancing model they appear to be using.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You get 3 command points for battle forged army - absolutely free.

False Dichotomy.

Only free if you consider everything else you spend CP on to be worthless. Somehow I suspect that's not true.

Also, "Free" after you build your list to be Battleforged, which comes with restrictions. Fairly light restrictions, but still restrictions. Just like how that Battalion costs you not being able to take a list of nothing by FA. Not a points cost, but an opportunity cost.

Those 3 CP are free much like the 2k points you get in a 2k battleforged match. Yes, you didn't have to pay some other resource to get those points, but things you buy with those points generally isn't considered "free".

You even went back to update a previous post from "free" to 1CP, then posted again claiming the DS was "free".

This really feels like a "CWE > SM" thread, not a "-1 to-hit is OP" thread. If it were the latter, RG and AL would be just as relevant as Alaitoc. But, from the posts, it's just more "CWE OP" complaints. Most people (myself included) don't even disagree with that claim. But the wild claims and accusations being swung around are just crazy.

So let's ask this: Of the forces that can take -1 to hit, which are OP with it?
I'm seeing Alaitoc as OP.
Alpha Legion has some tricks, but generally the -1 doesn't matter much.
The others don't seem broken.

So if only 1 faction makes use of it and is broken, is it the trait itself that's broken?

The trait seems fine to me, now. But Alaitoc still doesn't.

If you want to discuss how OP Alaitoc is, perhaps you should be honest about your intention? Otherwise, we just get circular FUD.

It's the -1 to hit stacked on top of other Eldar huba-joobs.

If Martel and I agree on a SM/CWE thread, does DakkaDakka segfault?