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Actually people complain about Alpha Legion and Raven Guard all the time.

Most complaints I've heard about Alpha Legion have been around the Infiltrate stratagem, which is something totally different.

There was some complaints about RG when tactics were revealed, but since they've been tried at tournies, have they really held up that well?

This is about -1 to hit army trait in general - it should not exists. It is too powerful. Eldar abuse it best that's how this devolved into that. The eldar defenders are out in force though just like with scatter bikes and warp spiders and serpents.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Actually people complain about Alpha Legion and Raven Guard all the time.

Bharring wrote:Most complaints I've heard about Alpha Legion have been around the Infiltrate stratagem, which is something totally different.

There was some complaints about RG when tactics were revealed, but since they've been tried at tournies, have they really held up that well?

Bharring has the right of it, I feel. Most of the AL/RG complaints have centered around their Stratagems rather than the -1 to Hit @ 12"+.

I've been giving it some thought and I wonder if maybe the Eldar one should be altered to be the following for vehicles:

Eldar vehicles can only gain this if they are at least halfway concealed by a piece of cover

Bharring wrote:
Most complaints I've heard about Alpha Legion have been around the Infiltrate stratagem, which is something totally different.

There was some complaints about RG when tactics were revealed, but since they've been tried at tournies, have they really held up that well?

That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

If they make assault viable, it's less powerful.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Most complaints I've heard about Alpha Legion have been around the Infiltrate stratagem, which is something totally different.

There was some complaints about RG when tactics were revealed, but since they've been tried at tournies, have they really held up that well?

That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

Dude the book came out barely a month ago.

Martel732 wrote:
If they make assault viable, it's less powerful.

Or people can, y'know, just get within 12 inches.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Most complaints I've heard about Alpha Legion have been around the Infiltrate stratagem, which is something totally different.

There was some complaints about RG when tactics were revealed, but since they've been tried at tournies, have they really held up that well?

That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

Dude the book came out barely a month ago.

Tournaments happen every weekend all over the world.

I think its creating an unpleasant meta that tournament players may not mind, but is in danger of driving more and more casual players out of 40k.

The game is becoming far, far too dependent on skewed armies dictating the outcome of the game from turn 1 and the -1 to hit, which is clearly better than the other comparable tactics, is a factor in that.

I am sure there are other issues - but yes, if GW came in now and did a blanket change to make it something else I think that would be for the best.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Most complaints I've heard about Alpha Legion have been around the Infiltrate stratagem, which is something totally different.

There was some complaints about RG when tactics were revealed, but since they've been tried at tournies, have they really held up that well?

That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

Dude the book came out barely a month ago.

Yeah, a month is not long enough to declare "tournament domination". People need to adapt to new stuff (i.e. get inside 12" and kill those -1 to hit traits)

I'll grant that the Alaitoc trait doesn't make as much sense on Grav tanks, but on Infantry, Bikes and Flyers, it makes perfect sense. The issue comes from the later being boosted quite a bit be an additional -1.
But let's not forget that prior to this edition, Flyers were always hit on 6s and flat out could not be targeted by blast weapons. Now those same Flyers are hit on 4+ or 5+ and by any weapon with range to them.

Flyers were not dominating 7E, they certainly won't dominate now. The only exception to this is the Stormraven, a SM Flyer btw, which was being spammed early on in 8E prior to the "Boot on the Ground" FAQ.
So the real issue isn't -1 traits sweeping across factions, it is when units in those faction already have -1 and get boosted to -2. The problem with fixing (to not stack) is that it makes Rangers not benefit from being Alaitoc. Ya know, the CW that has the most/best Rangers.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

Please post results to support this. Otherwise, Hasty Generalization...again.

 Galef wrote:

I'll grant that the Alaitoc trait doesn't make as much sense on Grav tanks, but on Infantry, Bikes and Flyers, it makes perfect sense. The issue comes from the later being boosted quite a bit be an additional -1.

I disagree with it making sense on Flyers. If it doesn't make sense on Grav Tanks, why would it make sense on Flyers?

But let's not forget that prior to this edition, Flyers were always hit on 6s and flat out could not be targeted by blast weapons. Now those same Flyers are hit on 4+ or 5+ and by any weapon with range to them.

Flyers were not dominating 7E, they certainly won't dominate now. The only exception to this is the Stormraven, a SM Flyer btw, which was being spammed early on in 8E prior to the "Boot on the Ground" FAQ.

Wasn't it the fact that the Stormraven is pretty durable and has a hover mode that made it such a big deal?

So the real issue isn't -1 traits sweeping across factions, it is when units in those faction already have -1 and get boosted to -2. The problem with fixing (to not stack) is that it makes Rangers not benefit from being Alaitoc. Ya know, the CW that has the most/best Rangers.
-

So rejig it to be rather than "At over 12 inches" to "When in cover"? The Pathfinders' schtick was that they're masters of concealment and disruption.
Right now, the only units that I know of(I don't have the Eldar book to go off of so forgive me if I'm wrong here) with native -1 to Hits at 12" and beyond are the Tau Stealth Suits, Ghostkeel, and Shadowsun.
Making it so that Alaitoc stuff is -1 to Hit when in Cover fixes the issue of the Flyer double-dipping for it while adding a bit more flavor to the rule and not ruining the feel of the Pathfinders as supreme concealment/camouflage experts IMO.

@Kahnluen,
I would agree with that change - but it may be simpler to just make Alaitoc's specify 'Infantry and Biker units'.

Technically, the Vyper is both a Biker and Vehicle, but I don't think that'd be a problem.

I actually added that change to the thread I started about theorycrafting potential changes in Proposed Rules.

@Xeno,
When you paint peoople who say "CWE are OP" as Eldar defenders, it's really, really hard to try to hash this stuff out.

Tyel,
I wouldn't mind if GW found a better answer and pushed that out. I just don't see it breaking the game.

The trait seems to be making one powerful codex even stronger, is a suboptimal choice in another codex, and tends to be irrelevant even when taken by yet another codex.

Still seems like it's Alaitoc, not the trait itself, that needs to be fixed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the "While in cover" change. Makes sense. Should be both in cover and outside 12" though - we don't need DAs to be as durable as Tacs when in cover at close range.

I keep going back and forth on if Rangers should get it stacking. I think so. On them, it's not as big a deal. But note that a trait not supporting what the army is known for is common for CWE traits (Biel Tan and it's Thousand Cuts only buff one cut...).

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

Please post results to support this. Otherwise, Hasty Generalization...again.

I've seen the results. Feel free to research them yourself - it is extremely taxing work as no one really compiles the data that you want to see.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've seen the results. Feel free to research them yourself - it is extremely taxing work as no one really compiles the data that you want to see.

Hasty Generalization it is then, again.

I am not required to find evidence to support your claims, that is for you to do, that's how debate works.

This looks like a great survey... list all the trait archatypes (maybe with names behind) and have the community rank them - or select the most powerful. Not sure what Dakka has for survey options, also don't have all the codices so can't mine the data...

It does have polls.

The only trait I can think of which would give it a run for it's money would be the FnP trait.

I'm fairly sure it's the best trait. I'm fairly sure most people think it is. I'd like it to be weaker. Again, I think most people would. But that isn't the topic of the thread. The thread is about it being stupidly OP and ruining the game. That is a MUCH higher bar than simply being the best.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

Please post results to support this. Otherwise, Hasty Generalization...again.

I've seen the results. Feel free to research them yourself - it is extremely taxing work as no one really compiles the data that you want to see.

That's not how that works. Your claim was challenged, you have to produce evidence to defend your statement. In effect you either cannot or will not provide proof of your statement and thus your point is invalid. Which isn't surprising - yes -1 to hit is good, several armies have access to it. The reason it looks so good on Alatioc is the lack of other truly viable trait options. It creates a skewed perspective because unlike armies like AdMech or Marines who have an incentive to use their other traits to access a more all together powerful trait, Eldar do not. The problem isn't that -1 to hit is too good, its that its the only universally effective option in the CWE book.

I wouldn't mind Alaitoc Fieldcraft to apply to Infantry and Bikes only (although it makes sense to apply to Flyers & non-tank Vehicles too as "Feildcraft" can represent expert dodging and playing with the enemy's blind spots, but I could live without it for balance sake, I guess).

If you disregard Alaitoc for a moment, I don't thing other armies with -1 to hit traits are exactly "dominating" tournies.
-1 to hit is perfectly healthy for the game as it counter-balances pure shooting armies.
it goes back to the old argument that shooting can be used from turn 1, but melee can't happen until turn 2.
Thankfully, melee is finally a turn 1 option for many list, but it still needs a bit of help. -1 to hit traits make melee/close range armies viable vs gunlines.

Time will tell if Tau, Orks or Necrons get -1 to hit traits.

-

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Because from a balance perspective space marines are trash and eldar are top notch?

Hasty Generalization, again.

You move the goalposts every time someone points out your various logical fallacies and move on to the next hasty generalization that supposedly "proves" your point.

This has been true in all the threads where he states “X is too gud, change rules. Eldar are OP, SM need Moar”.

I can appreciate when someone is upset with one thing or another. But the constant outpouring of hate and I could do better gets old. What’s your real motivation.

 Galef wrote:
I wouldn't mind Alaitoc Fieldcraft to apply to Infantry and Bikes only (although it makes sense to apply to Flyers & non-tank Vehicles too as "Feildcraft" can represent expert dodging and playing with the enemy's blind spots, but I could live without it for balance sake, I guess).

Mymeara became adept at cloaking/hiding their entire craftworld when the need arose. Shouldn't be an issue to do the same thing for a Grav tank.

"Holofields" may not be wargear choices anymore, but CWE didn't lose that technology.

(I seem to need to add "But I'd be fine with the change, for balance sake" to most of my posts, just to avoid 4 pages of hate.)

Bharring wrote:
I'm fairly sure it's the best trait. I'm fairly sure most people think it is. I'd like it to be weaker. Again, I think most people would. But that isn't the topic of the thread. The thread is about it being stupidly OP and ruining the game. That is a MUCH higher bar than simply being the best.

I'd probably agree with this generally. That being said, I've played with some of the other CSM traits, and they can be *very* good when used correctly. World Eaters chapter trait is flat-out amazing on Cultists, they punch way above their weight class with that trait. Night Lords trait is a very fidgety trait that you have to design your army to take advantage of, however, under the right circumstances, could be devastating. Iron Warriors is very solid and easy to use, it would be amazing if they could actually use it with artillery and vehicles.

That being said, there are ones I'm really not thrilled with. The Black Legion trait isn't bad, neither is Emperor's Children, just not as generally applicable to the prevailing gunline meta right now. I hate the Word Bearers legion trait, I have no good things to say about this, feels superfluous, should have given them an extra die when summoning Daemons, would have been useful, thematic, effective.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is because space marines are a terrible army. Once Aliatoc was released it instantly started dominating tournaments.

Please post results to support this. Otherwise, Hasty Generalization...again.

I've seen the results. Feel free to research them yourself - it is extremely taxing work as no one really compiles the data that you want to see.

That's not how that works. Your claim was challenged, you have to produce evidence to defend your statement. In effect you either cannot or will not provide proof of your statement and thus your point is invalid. Which isn't surprising - yes -1 to hit is good, several armies have access to it. The reason it looks so good on Alatioc is the lack of other truly viable trait options. It creates a skewed perspective because unlike armies like AdMech or Marines who have an incentive to use their other traits to access a more all together powerful trait, Eldar do not. The problem isn't that -1 to hit is too good, its that its the only universally effective option in the CWE book.

Eldar have the exact same copy and paste options as everyone else. Eldar success isn't tied to a special character like admech and space marines - so they are free to pick whatever trait they want to use. -1 to hit being the blatantly obvious decision. CSM which is basically the top codex right now (though it is mostly soup lists) Is always played as -1 to hit alpha legion - not only because it has the best combos but also because the -1 to hit is OP as feth on obliteraters and such.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar have the exact same copy and paste options as everyone else. Eldar success isn't tied to a special character like admech and space marines - so they are free to pick whatever trait they want to use. -1 to hit being the blatantly obvious decision. CSM which is basically the top codex right now (though it is mostly soup lists) Is always played as -1 to hit alpha legion - not only because it has the best combos but also because the -1 to hit is OP as feth on obliteraters and such.

You do a brilliant job of dodging points and moving goal posts in nearly every thread I watch you in. Get challenged to post tournament results? No you go do it. Get told that's now how the burden of proof works? Just skip that point to loop back into another point and then disengage from a known tactic of "Eldar OP!' to deflect with 'Alpha Legion OP!'. Ultimately at this point all I can do is agree to disagree with you because you have 0 interest in an actual discussion or possibly changing your view point, much less even actively listening to ideas that don't line up with yours.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar have the exact same copy and paste options as everyone else. Eldar success isn't tied to a special character like admech and space marines - so they are free to pick whatever trait they want to use. -1 to hit being the blatantly obvious decision. CSM which is basically the top codex right now (though it is mostly soup lists) Is always played as -1 to hit alpha legion - not only because it has the best combos but also because the -1 to hit is OP as feth on obliteraters and such.

You do a brilliant job of dodging points and moving goal posts in nearly every thread I watch you in. Get challenged to post tournament results? No you go do it. Get told that's now how the burden of proof works? Just skip that point to loop back into another point and then disengage from a known tactic of "Eldar OP!' to deflect with 'Alpha Legion OP!'. Ultimately at this point all I can do is agree to disagree with you because you have 0 interest in an actual discussion or possibly changing your view point, much less even actively listening to ideas that don't line up with yours.

I have already said that I am not digging the results up for you. It is grueling work - you want to know the truth - do it yourself.

And I answered the other part of your post.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar have the exact same copy and paste options as everyone else.

Not sure what this means other than many armies get this trait, yes, this is true.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar success isn't tied to a special character like admech and space marines - so they are free to pick whatever trait they want to use. -1 to hit being the blatantly obvious decision.

Hasty Generalization, again.

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM which is basically the top codex right now (though it is mostly soup lists) Is always played as -1 to hit alpha legion - not only because it has the best combos but also because the -1 to hit is OP as feth on obliteraters and such.

Hasty Generalization, again.

Please post the CSM-based lists that are currently "dominating" the tournaments.

It's OP on Obliterators because you can't be bothered to move 12" closer to them? You know their range is 24" right?

Furthermore, Smite Spam is not CSM, that is pre-CA Malefic Lord spam. These types of Smite Spam lists rarely make significant use of Legion traits, since most of the units involved aren't actually from the CSM codex. Perhaps you mean Renegades and Heretics (RAH) or Daemons? There is one list that I've seen which used Alpha Legion Tzeentchian Obliterators alongside the Changeling, it was a good combo, it didn't win the tournament, it placed. Many codices have good combos, this is not strange.

-1 to hit trait is perfectly balanced against all other traits. It is only perceived as the better one right now because the game is focused on shooting. 6 months from now, we have no idea what the meta will be, gunline armies could be 100% unviable and the ultramarine trait would become all the rage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tournaments happen every weekend all over the world.

And clearly you have the tap into all of that data? Care to share it?