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Twin pole you are straight trolling.

When someone says this to me -refering to -1 to hit trait
"The reason it looks so good on Alatioc is the lack of other truly viable trait options."
Then I say this
"Eldar have the exact same copy and paste options as everyone else"

I am obviosuly expressing that this isn't an eldar problem. It is a game problem. Which is actually proving my point.

You keep going on about hasty generalizations. Well let me hit you with some facts. Space marine and Ad Mech Tournament success is directly tied Cawl and Guilliman respectively. They want to use the -1 to hit trait BUT THEY CAN'T. Everyone else uses the -1 trait competitively because it is glaringly better.

Observing things in a vacum is bad. Obliterators deep strike and wipe out your best units and there is a bunch of bezerkers in rhinos in front of them. Getting close is not an option - unless you can somehow manage to destroy their whole army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
-1 to hit trait is perfectly balanced against all other traits. It is only perceived as the better one right now because the game is focused on shooting. 6 months from now, we have no idea what the meta will be, gunline armies could be 100% unviable and the ultramarine trait would become all the rage.

This game will always be focused on shooting - LOL. Unviable gunlines? So - AM, Tau, and Space marines will cease to exist huh?

Raven Guard's Infiltrate is "the exact same copy and paste option" as Alpha Legion. Infiltrate is OP for Alpha Legion. Would you argue that Infiltrate is OP for Raven Guard?

The game is asymetric. Different abilities are better or worse for different armies. Infiltrate would be even more OP in CWE hands, but it's just not as big a deal for Loyalist Marines.

As such, Alaitoc's -1-to-hit being mostly the same as other factions -1-to-hit doesn't mean it's as powerful in other armies' hands as it is in Alaitoc's.

Just how many "other armies" do you think are out there with the trait? I'll give you a hint: less than a dozen.

I don't think this is too powerful. I've faced this multiple times and I've beaten this multiple times. Not to say it's not powerful, far from it.

Either way, I don't think its level of power is the problem. The problem is that these traits are too samey. C'mon, GW, show some originality.

Bharring wrote:
Infiltrate would be even more OP in CWE hands.

Which is exactly why CWE are limited in the use of Infiltrating stratagem. Unlike AL/RG, CWE can infiltrate a max of 2 units and have to spend 3CPs to do so.

 RedCommander wrote:
The problem is that these traits are too samey. C'mon, GW, show some originality.

Be careful what you wish for. Most times GW tries giving out unique snowflake special rules, you either get an asymmetrically OP army, or they overcompensate by making those units too expensive and thus unless.

Chapter Tactics, Legion traits, CW attributes, etc should give flavor to an army, not be the main course.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:
Twin pole you are straight trolling.

Here's the sad thing, I'm not. I actually think you probably have some decent points, I agree with you sometimes. However, your presentation is horrible, you engage in every kind of logical fallacy in the book when debating the topics you post about, and never once have I actually seen you admit error once you have adopted a position, even when reasonable counterpoints are presented to your hyperbolic vitriol.

Mostly though, the sheer volume of logical fallacies you use in your posts in mind blowing. I just started identifying them as an exercise in the hopes that maybe you would make the effort to construct cogent arguments rather than retreating into hyperbole and emotional appeal.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am obviosuly expressing that this isn't an eldar problem. It is a game problem. Which is actually proving my point.

If your point is that the trait exists in multiple armies, you are correct. If your point is that the trait inherently undermines the competitive balance of the game, no, you haven't. Again, you've engaged a number of hasty generalizations, false dichotomies and goalpost shifting. About the only logical fallacy you haven't engaged in was Ad Hominem, until now, when you accused me of trolling you.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You keep going on about hasty generalizations. Well let me hit you with some facts. Space marine and Ad Mech Tournament success is directly tied Cawl and Guilliman respectively. They want to use the -1 to hit trait BUT THEY CAN'T. Everyone else uses the -1 trait competitively because it is glaringly better.

Again, you may have a point about Gulliman and Cawl, at least from a tournament perspective, but again, it fails to prove your other point and is once again, a hasty generalization. If you want to post information that actually backs up this claim, I'll stop calling it a hasty generalization. That's how debate works.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Observing things in a vacum is bad. Obliterators deep strike and wipe out your best units and there is a bunch of bezerkers in rhinos in front of them. Getting close is not an option - unless you can somehow manage to destroy their whole army.

Clearly this must be the list you refer to as "dominating" tournaments from the CSM codex, please point us to the results and list so that we can share in your terror and horror.

I don't think he's trolling at all.

Even for me, some of the posting in here is too absolutist, and does't get to the heart of the problem.

If CC = viable, then -1 to hit becomes far less powerful. That's it. That's the solution.

Martel732 wrote:
If CC = viable, then -1 to hit becomes far less powerful. That's it. That's the solution.

And will Nids just getting a Codex, BAs on the way and Orks still yet to come out, CC may indeed become viable
However I do think it's interesting that none of those armies have a -1 to hit trait. Only AL seem to get both -1 to hit and decent melee units.

-

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If CC = viable, then -1 to hit becomes far less powerful. That's it. That's the solution.

And will Nids just getting a Codex, BAs on the way and Orks still yet to come out, CC may indeed become viable
However I do think it's interesting that none of those armies have a -1 to hit trait. Only AL seem to get both -1 to hit and decent melee units.

-

If BA units are FINALLY costed correctly, the -1 to hit won't slow us down much at all. Flamers, frags, melta, and punching don't care.

For the record, all the nid players are gunlining with dakkafexes. I told them not to buy 12 of them, as the hammer is going to come for them.

Martel732 wrote:
If BA units are FINALLY costed correctly, the -1 to hit won't slow us down much at all. Flamers, frags, melta, and punching don't care.

They're moving in the right direction for BA, your chapter trait is straight gangsta.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If BA units are FINALLY costed correctly, the -1 to hit won't slow us down much at all. Flamers, frags, melta, and punching don't care.

They're moving in the right direction for BA, your chapter trait is straight gangsta.

The beta strikes are still going to murder power armor CQC, I fear. We need cheaper BA-specific units, too. MOAR BODIES!!

October 1-22nd results (probably not long enough for eldar to count):
https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/11/16/top-itc-tournament-lists-october-2017/

AM
Alpha legion
AM + GMDKs
Alpha legion
rowboat + stormravens
rowboat + AM x2 (same list top 3)
AM
Alpha legion + morty
Alpha legion + magnus
Magnus+morty
Blood angels + leviathan dreads
rowboat + stormravens + xiphon
Ynarri
assassins
renegade kinghts + mal lords
CawlBots

I sure do see a lot of alpha legion (25%) followed by rowboat + stormravens and then AM. Best results I can see.

There have been more recent tourneys where 3 out of top 4 were eldar of some color (http://www.gowarhead.com/2017/11/war-head-triad-iii-coverage.html)

It seems the meta is moving and it seems with the changes to points target the current FOTM SM army is getting (gulliman + stormravens) to the exclusion of the other top performers so that one will probably move onto fire raptors and xiphons + guilliman, get replaced with something else or the point changes won't have an effect (which I doubt).

But if -1 wasn't very powerful I doubt we'd see so many alpha legion armies. Hard to say definitely because the strat is really good and we don't see many/any RG armies anymore (I'd posit that's because SM suck without guilliman and are rather 1 trick with him)

-1 is good, I think with all of ways CWE get it to -2 it boarders on game breaking. We'll see how the meta shifts in the next couple months, I think the CA nerfs will help speed the meta shift along but I curious to wait and see.

I hadn't realized Alpha Legion was up there so far.

Any further details on the list? Like, was it AL to infiltrate Zerkers then a bunch of Maelific Lords? Or was it AL for some CSM long-range shooting? Or what?

I checked out the BoK list, about the last half dozen Chaos lists have had a decent level of AL in them. Usually some Oblits and a squad of Berzerkers or two to use with Forward Operatives.

Still a lot of Mal Lords and Horrors, and obviously M&M here and there.

So what can we take from this?

Alpha Legion is proving effective in tournaments, appears to be supported heavily by Daemons/Renegades, if not vice versa entirely. AL is basically there for Oblits+Changeling and infiltrating Berzerkers.

Honestly, given the recent results posted above, it's not a bad spread, the lists are all carbon copies of one another, but that is going to be the tendency for tournament lists.

Interestingly enough, the only Eldar on the list is Ynnari, which works against the premise of the thread.

bananathug wrote:
But if -1 wasn't very powerful I doubt we'd see so many alpha legion armies. Hard to say definitely because the strat is really good and we don't see many/any RG armies anymore (I'd posit that's because SM suck without guilliman and are rather 1 trick with him)

Raven Guard doesn't have anything worth infiltrating like Alpha Legion does (Cultists and Khorne Berzerkers are both exceptionally good targets for the stratagem). The -1 to hit is largely exploited for obliterators, especially Tzeentch ones with the Changeling so you can be -2 to hit.

It's a very strong list, but it'll be interesting to see if it can still keep up with Guard/Eldar/Tyranids when the malefic lords are removed from it.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

bananathug wrote:
But if -1 wasn't very powerful I doubt we'd see so many alpha legion armies. Hard to say definitely because the strat is really good and we don't see many/any RG armies anymore (I'd posit that's because SM suck without guilliman and are rather 1 trick with him)

Raven Guard doesn't have anything worth infiltrating like Alpha Legion does (Cultists and Khorne Berzerkers are both exceptionally good targets for the stratagem). The -1 to hit is largely exploited for obliterators, especially Tzeentch ones with the Changeling so you can be -2 to hit.

It's a very strong list, but it'll be interesting to see if it can still keep up with Guard/Eldar/Tyranids when the malefic lords are removed from it.

Infiltrated RG assault centurions are terrifying. But what do I know? I play BA.

I honestly think the thing to take from this is -2 to hit is broken, -1 merely good.

changeling + AL = broken. Same with Altorac(sp?) and conceal/-1 to hit strat/flyer.

Martel732 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

bananathug wrote:
But if -1 wasn't very powerful I doubt we'd see so many alpha legion armies. Hard to say definitely because the strat is really good and we don't see many/any RG armies anymore (I'd posit that's because SM suck without guilliman and are rather 1 trick with him)

Raven Guard doesn't have anything worth infiltrating like Alpha Legion does (Cultists and Khorne Berzerkers are both exceptionally good targets for the stratagem). The -1 to hit is largely exploited for obliterators, especially Tzeentch ones with the Changeling so you can be -2 to hit.

It's a very strong list, but it'll be interesting to see if it can still keep up with Guard/Eldar/Tyranids when the malefic lords are removed from it.

Infiltrated RG assault centurions are terrifying. But what do I know? I play BA.

Are they? The only times I've heard the word "centurion" in 8th it's been associated with the word "terrible". Not my army though so I could be wrong.

bananathug wrote:
I honestly think the thing to take from this is -2 to hit is broken, -1 merely good.

changeling + AL = broken. Same with Altorac(sp?) and conceal/-1 to hit strat/flyer.

-2 is really good, although generally it will be a localized effect (ie the units around the Changeling, the unit that you cast MoP on,an Alaitoc flyer specifically), but given that it removes Orks entirely from the shooting process is problematic, for sure.

However, that starts to get in to a discussion of what should stack and what shouldn't stack. FnP stacks in various circumstances, as does +1 to hit. I don't think it would be bad to nix stacking entirely, but it may involve some rules revision to released materials.

Stacking is often what breaks systems like these anyways.

 RedCommander wrote:
The problem is that these traits are too samey. C'mon, GW, show some originality.

I would not be so hard on GW on this: the same trait can play in a dramatically different way on different armies like Marines, CSM, Eldar and Mech.

bananathug wrote:
October 1-22nd results (probably not long enough for eldar to count)

Definitely not since it was out Oct 28th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:

AM
Alpha legion
AM + GMDKs
Alpha legion
rowboat + stormravens
rowboat + AM x2 (same list top 3)
AM
Alpha legion + morty
Alpha legion + magnus
Magnus+morty
Blood angels + leviathan dreads
rowboat + stormravens + xiphon
Ynarri
assassins
renegade kinghts + mal lords
CawlBots

Looking at actual lists there is only one i'd attribute to true AL cheese -- Obliterators and the Changeling.

The rest are Magnus/Morty/Malefic Lords/Klaws/Fire Raptors

The biggest cheese I can think of in the game is the guy who beats me, seriously, the game isn’t balanced if I’m not winning 100% of the time. Every list is pure cheese with their 1st turn charges and -1 to hit and thousands of Ork boyz, not to mention the storm ravens and the conscripts and the assault cannons and the Eldar and those disgusting bloated green Marines.... but if I win my army is completely balanced and it is because of my pure tactical genius, end of story.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

bananathug wrote:
But if -1 wasn't very powerful I doubt we'd see so many alpha legion armies. Hard to say definitely because the strat is really good and we don't see many/any RG armies anymore (I'd posit that's because SM suck without guilliman and are rather 1 trick with him)

Raven Guard doesn't have anything worth infiltrating like Alpha Legion does (Cultists and Khorne Berzerkers are both exceptionally good targets for the stratagem). The -1 to hit is largely exploited for obliterators, especially Tzeentch ones with the Changeling so you can be -2 to hit.

It's a very strong list, but it'll be interesting to see if it can still keep up with Guard/Eldar/Tyranids when the malefic lords are removed from it.

Infiltrated RG assault centurions are terrifying. But what do I know? I play BA.

Are they? The only times I've heard the word "centurion" in 8th it's been associated with the word "terrible". Not my army though so I could be wrong.

Well, they get 3 hurricane bolters and 6 melta shots and automatically set up within optimal range. And they can be placed in cover for 1+ saves. And shooting them from more than 12" is at -1. So yeah, terrifying, imo.

 Galef wrote:
However I do think it's interesting that none of those armies have a -1 to hit trait. Only AL seem to get both -1 to hit and decent melee units.

Have to wait and see with Orks (most of the -1 to hit subfactions have been the "sneaky" ones, so Blood Axes are a possibility for it), but Tyranids didn't get it because they already have access to a -1 in the form of Venomthropes and Malanthropes (or carapace Spore Cysts for a Carnifex spam army). As far as I can tell, Astra Miliarium and Grey Knights so far are the only factions without access to a -1 trait or bubble of some sort, but even then AM may end up getting it indirectly through Brood Brothers when the Genestealer Cult Codex shows up.

Also worth noting, the Tyranid codex specifically calls out it's -1 to hit effects from being able to stack, so there very well may be a similar rule added to the faction traits in an errata if it appears to skew things too badly.

I really dont see why people think it is so good. Most of the -1 to hit traits have a qualifier which allows people to get around having a -1 to hit.

Personally I run AL Rubric Marines because im a treacherous donkey-cave that thinks friends are for pussies. They do alright but not all that great. Mostly people just get within 12 and then take them out. It buys me some time but it really isnt broken in any way.

Keep in mind it would probably be a good idea for them to attach the army traits to certain charcters rather then just giving the entire army.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

bananathug wrote:
But if -1 wasn't very powerful I doubt we'd see so many alpha legion armies. Hard to say definitely because the strat is really good and we don't see many/any RG armies anymore (I'd posit that's because SM suck without guilliman and are rather 1 trick with him)

Raven Guard doesn't have anything worth infiltrating like Alpha Legion does (Cultists and Khorne Berzerkers are both exceptionally good targets for the stratagem). The -1 to hit is largely exploited for obliterators, especially Tzeentch ones with the Changeling so you can be -2 to hit.

It's a very strong list, but it'll be interesting to see if it can still keep up with Guard/Eldar/Tyranids when the malefic lords are removed from it.

Infiltrated RG assault centurions are terrifying. But what do I know? I play BA.

Are they? The only times I've heard the word "centurion" in 8th it's been associated with the word "terrible". Not my army though so I could be wrong.

Well Assault Centurions got better after that huge points drop in the codex, but the Devastator ones are paying for their sins still.

Xenomancers wrote:
This game will always be focused on shooting - LOL. Unviable gunlines? So - AM, Tau, and Space marines will cease to exist huh?

Yeah, like it never happened in the history of 40k that assault armies broke the meta. Nids armies are already showing that pure gunlines are not viable anymore, and that you need at least a 20-30% of your army invested in melee specialists.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If CC = viable, then -1 to hit becomes far less powerful. That's it. That's the solution.

And will Nids just getting a Codex, BAs on the way and Orks still yet to come out, CC may indeed become viable
However I do think it's interesting that none of those armies have a -1 to hit trait. Only AL seem to get both -1 to hit and decent melee units.

-

If BA units are FINALLY costed correctly, the -1 to hit won't slow us down much at all. Flamers, frags, melta, and punching don't care.

For the record, all the nid players are gunlining with dakkafexes. I told them not to buy 12 of them, as the hammer is going to come for them.

I have no idea what nids lists you are looking at. Competitive nids list are all assault oriented with ranged support elements, usually exocrines, hive guards and biovores.

 Xenomancers wrote:

This game will always be focused on shooting - LOL. Unviable gunlines? So - AM, Tau, and Space marines will cease to exist huh?

Ah the youngster of these days (jk) Don't remember the editions where assault was the king. I started 40k on days when turn 1 rhino assaults followed by consolidiations into new combats from which you were not able to flee on your own was dominating. Shooty army just basically evaporated when enemy could literally charge before they got even one round of shooting(not even overwatch back then) and were never able to shoot barring pure luck as enemy stayed in combat(often ensuring only one or two of their own models got into combat on THEIR turn thus making it unlikely enemy would flee from combat unless there was consolidiation target available)

I feel I am repeating the same point as yesterday - but while "stack turn 1 charges" is a counter to -1 to hit armies, I am not sure that is good for the game either.

40k is in danger of devolving into a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors.

One of the big things with 8th was that we were meant to be getting away from "only hit on 6s, I get a 2++ rerollable". This stacking -1s to hit is definitely moving in that direction. It is a massive meta defining buff that also has the effect of really screwing over certain armies.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I really dont see why people think it is so good. Most of the -1 to hit traits have a qualifier which allows people to get around having a -1 to hit.

Personally I run AL Rubric Marines because im a treacherous donkey-cave that thinks friends are for pussies. They do alright but not all that great. Mostly people just get within 12 and then take them out. It buys me some time but it really isnt broken in any way.

And this is where the issue lies.

For Alpha Legion and Raven Guard, it's not as great as it is for Stygies or Alaitoc. RG+AL only get their trait on infantry, bikers, and Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes.
Stygies and Alaitoc get it on what amounts to basically everything you take for them.
The main complaint centers around the Alaitoc flyers though as they can be given a -2 to Hit thanks to the Fieldcraft ability stacking with "Hard to Hit"(-1 to Hit Flyers in the shooting phase).

Tyel wrote:
I feel I am repeating the same point as yesterday - but while "stack turn 1 charges" is a counter to -1 to hit armies, I am not sure that is good for the game either.

40k is in danger of devolving into a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors.

One of the big things with 8th was that we were meant to be getting away from "only hit on 6s, I get a 2++ rerollable". This stacking -1s to hit is definitely moving in that direction. It is a massive meta defining buff that also has the effect of really screwing over certain armies.

The rock-paper-scissors logic will apply only to skewed lists, which will not be competitive.
Gunline wins against slow assault and loses against fast assault which in turn loses against slow assault.
Truly competitive lists will mix parts of these 3 archetypes. You don't bring a list to a tournament that is match up dependent.