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Ok, so what do you do when you have two units with opposing special abilities. In this case say a Culexus Assassin vs. Dark Reaper. Reapers say they hit on a 3+, their normal BS rating, regardless of normal penalties, while the Assassin says that all enemies make attack rolls against it as if they had a BS and WS of 6+. Which is the winner? I'm sure there are other examples as well but just wondering if anyone has run into this before.

Gwarok wrote:
Ok, so what do you do when you have two units with opposing special abilities. In this case say a Culexus Assassin vs. Dark Reaper. Reapers say they hit on a 3+, their normal BS rating, regardless of normal penalties, while the Assassin says that all enemies make attack rolls against it as if they had a BS and WS of 6+. Which is the winner? I'm sure there are other examples as well but just wondering if anyone has run into this before.

This exact example is covered in the Craftworlds FAQ.

Q: If a unit of Dark Reapers (which have the Inescapable
Accuracy ability) shoots at a Culexus Assassin (which has the
Etherium ability), what roll do the Dark Reapers require to
successfully hit the Assassin?
A: 3+.
This is because while the Dark Reapers treat their
Ballistic Skill as 6+ because of the Etherium ability,
they always score a hit on rolls of 3+ because of their
Inescapable Accuracy ability, which is irrespective of
their Ballistic Skill characteristic or any modifiers.

So in other words, Dark reapers always hit on 3+, no matter what you throw at them, unless of course they are dead which is a good place for them imo.

It actually isn't a case of rules conflicting. They both take effect.

Thanks for the clarification. As if I didn't hate Reapers enough.

On the plus side, dark reapers don't benefit from +1 to hit either.

Its easier to give enemy units -2 or even -3 to their ballistic skill when they want to hit you. Reapers simply ignore that. But its almost impossible to buff your own units ballistic skill with +2 or +3.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
On the plus side, dark reapers don't benefit from +1 to hit either.

This doesn't seem to be the case. Dark Reapers always hit on a 3+. That doesn't mean they only hit on a 3+. Note that their ability is written differently than Overwatch, which does prevent you from hitting on lower rolls. That said I'm not sure if Eldar actually have access to anything that gives units +1 to hit at range.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
On the plus side, dark reapers don't benefit from +1 to hit either.

This doesn't seem to be the case. Dark Reapers always hit on a 3+. That doesn't mean they only hit on a 3+. Note that their ability is written differently than Overwatch, which does prevent you from hitting on lower rolls. That said I'm not sure if Eldar actually have access to anything that gives units +1 to hit at range.

Read the FAQ:

"...irrespective of their Ballistic Skill characteristic or any modifiers." My emphasis.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
On the plus side, dark reapers don't benefit from +1 to hit either.

This doesn't seem to be the case. Dark Reapers always hit on a 3+. That doesn't mean they only hit on a 3+. Note that their ability is written differently than Overwatch, which does prevent you from hitting on lower rolls. That said I'm not sure if Eldar actually have access to anything that gives units +1 to hit at range.

Read the FAQ:

"...irrespective of their Ballistic Skill characteristic or any modifiers." My emphasis.

Read my post:

"Dark Reapers always hit on a 3+. That doesn't mean they only hit on a 3+."

Yes, they always hit on a 3+ no matter what modifiers are affecting them. This doesn't say anything about rolls which aren't a 3+ regardless of modifiers. Are these rolls hits or misses? Presumably we figure that out by resorting to the normal process.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
On the plus side, dark reapers don't benefit from +1 to hit either.

This doesn't seem to be the case. Dark Reapers always hit on a 3+. That doesn't mean they only hit on a 3+. Note that their ability is written differently than Overwatch, which does prevent you from hitting on lower rolls. That said I'm not sure if Eldar actually have access to anything that gives units +1 to hit at range.

Read the FAQ:

"...irrespective of their Ballistic Skill characteristic or any modifiers." My emphasis.

Read my post:

"Dark Reapers always hit on a 3+. That doesn't mean they only hit on a 3+."

Yes, they always hit on a 3+ no matter what modifiers are affecting them. This doesn't say anything about rolls which aren't a 3+ regardless of modifiers. Are these rolls hits or misses? Presumably we figure that out by resorting to the normal process.

I don't even understand your post.

Is it a dark reaper? Did you roll a 2? You missed, because if you add +1 to the roll, you're modifying it and that's not allowed.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't even understand your post.

Is it a dark reaper? Did you roll a 2? You missed, because if you add +1 to the roll, you're modifying it and that's not allowed.

Why not? Their rules don't say that you ignore modifiers entirely for figuring out if they hit or not. If they'd meant this they could have said it. Their rules (and the FAQ) say that they hit on a 3+, regardless of modifiers.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't even understand your post.

Is it a dark reaper? Did you roll a 2? You missed, because if you add +1 to the roll, you're modifying it and that's not allowed.

Why not? Their rules don't say that you ignore modifiers entirely for figuring out if they hit or not. If they'd meant this they could have said it. Their rules (and the FAQ) say that they hit on a 3+, regardless of modifiers.

But that is exactly what it says? You do ignore modifiers. They did say it.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't even understand your post.

Is it a dark reaper? Did you roll a 2? You missed, because if you add +1 to the roll, you're modifying it and that's not allowed.

Why not? Their rules don't say that you ignore modifiers entirely for figuring out if they hit or not. If they'd meant this they could have said it. Their rules (and the FAQ) say that they hit on a 3+, regardless of modifiers.

They did say they ignore modifiers...

...in the part you quoted...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't even understand your post.

Is it a dark reaper? Did you roll a 2? You missed, because if you add +1 to the roll, you're modifying it and that's not allowed.

Why not? Their rules don't say that you ignore modifiers entirely for figuring out if they hit or not. If they'd meant this they could have said it. Their rules (and the FAQ) say that they hit on a 3+, regardless of modifiers.

They did say they ignore modifiers...

...in the part you quoted...

Saying that you get an effect under certain conditions does not imply that those conditions apply to everything else surrounding the roll. I had thought this was uncontroversial. Everyone seems to understand that modifiers apply to Overwatch, they just don't affect whether you hit. On Overwatch, you only hit on a 6, regardless of modifiers. But you can still Get Hot on a natural 2 if there's a -1 modifier active. Likewise flamers still automatically hit on Overwatch, because they have an alternative procedure that's independent of the hit roll. GW simply does not use this sort of language to mean that you ignore the modifiers entirely for the hit roll or to mean that this sort of rule is the only means by which the model can generate hits -- they only mean that you ignore modifiers for purposes of applying the particular rule that's being given, and if you have other ways to generate hits then those still work. Likewise, Dark Reapers hit on a natural 3+ because of their rule. What if their roll was not a natural 3+? Then you resort to the normal procedure.

Though, again, this doesn't seem like a big deal because I don't think there's any way to give Reapers +1 to hit.

I see the confusion.

Dark reapers always hit on a natural 3+, regardless of modifiers.

To me, that means that if the roll isn't a natural 3+ but you've still hit, then you've broken the always above, much like how if you have rolled a natural 3+ and not hit, the rule also has been broken.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I see the confusion.

Dark reapers always hit on a natural 3+, regardless of modifiers.

To me, that means that if the roll isn't a natural 3+ but you've still hit, then you've broken the always above, much like how if you have rolled a natural 3+ and not hit, the rule also has been broken.

But it seems to me that clearly you haven't broken the "always", since "always" does not imply "only".

Marines always pass their armor save when they roll a (modified) 6. Right? It is never the case that you roll a modified 6 for their saving throw and then fail the save. But they also pass their save on other values.

I always have a sandwich for lunch on Tuesday. It doesn't follow that I don't eat sandwiches any other time.

I don't see the confusion. The FAQ tells you to ignore BS and modifiers, they simply hit on a 3+. Always.

Where's the grey area? Their guns don't blow up on a 1 or get extra hits on a 6, so all talk of modifiers is irrelevant. They hit on a 3+. Simples. Don't overthink it beyond that.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I see the confusion.

Dark reapers always hit on a natural 3+, regardless of modifiers.

To me, that means that if the roll isn't a natural 3+ but you've still hit, then you've broken the always above, much like how if you have rolled a natural 3+ and not hit, the rule also has been broken.

But it seems to me that clearly you haven't broken the "always", since "always" does not imply "only".

Marines always pass their armor save when they roll a (modified) 6. Right? It is never the case that you roll a modified 6 for their saving throw and then fail the save. But they also pass their save on other values.

I always have a sandwich for lunch on Tuesday. It doesn't follow that I don't eat sandwiches any other time.

Right, but the part you've omitted is "regardless of modifiers" which is in the FAQ.

A Space Marine does not always pass his armour save regardless of modifiers on a 6.

Yes, I agree that if they had not said "regardless of modifiers", a Dark Reaper with +1 to hit would hit on a 2+. But they are very specific to exclude modifiers to the roll, and make no distinction between positive and negative modifiers.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Right, but the part you've omitted is "regardless of modifiers" which is in the FAQ.

A Space Marine does not always pass his armour save regardless of modifiers on a 6.

Yes, I agree that if they had not said "regardless of modifiers", a Dark Reaper with +1 to hit would hit on a 2+. But they are very specific to exclude modifiers to the roll, and make no distinction between positive and negative modifiers.

Then I think what we're actually talking about is the scope of the modifier "regardless of modifiers". I think you've misidentified the disagreement/confusion.

Like, a Dark Reaper always hits on a roll of a 6+, regardless of modifiers. Right? It is never the case that you roll a 6+, regardless of modifiers, and miss. It is just also the case that Dark Reapers hit on rolls of 5, 4, and 3, regardless of modifiers.

What I've been saying is that this doesn't tell us anything about what happens when the condition isn't met. It can be true that Dark Reapers always hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers, and that they still hit on a 3. "Always" does not imply "only". The rule tells you that they hit under certain conditions. It doesn't say that they miss otherwise. So what happens if they don't roll an unmodified 3+? The rule doesn't say. I read "regardless of modifiers" the same way that people read the Overwatch rule -- it only applies to determining whether that rule triggers a hit, not to other important effects of the hit roll or other ways of generating hits.

It appears you're arguing for a hypothetical situation that (AFAIK) isn't relevant, because Dark Reapers have no extra effects possible based on the dice roll.

They hit, on a 3+, or they miss, on a 1 or a 2. Re-rolls also happen before modifiers, so there's no effect there. They don't generate extra shots on 6+ (to my knowledge). So anything beyond "they hit on a natural 3+" is irrelevant.

You seem to think a 6 is always a pass, when it isn’t, as one confusion.

Regardless of any modifier must mean positive or negative. If you roll a 2, and try to add 1, then they still miss because you are not allowed to consider ANY modifier.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It appears you're arguing for a hypothetical situation that (AFAIK) isn't relevant, because Dark Reapers have no extra effects possible based on the dice roll.

They hit, on a 3+, or they miss, on a 1 or a 2. Re-rolls also happen before modifiers, so there's no effect there. They don't generate extra shots on 6+ (to my knowledge). So anything beyond "they hit on a natural 3+" is irrelevant.

Yes, I've noted a few times that I don't think this actually comes up in real games.

But you're just making up the rule that they miss on a 1 or 2. Nothing says that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You seem to think a 6 is always a pass, when it isn’t, as one confusion.

Regardless of any modifier must mean positive or negative. If you roll a 2, and try to add 1, then they still miss because you are not allowed to consider ANY modifier.

I have no idea why you think I think a 6 is always a pass. Are you saying that Dark Reapers don't always hit on 6s, regardless of modifiers?

Again, the rule doesn't say you don't consider modifiers for any purpose. This isn't controversial. People apply modifiers to Overwatch, just not for the purposes of determining whether you hit.

If they don't roll an unmodified 3+, then they don't hit, because if you've hit on a modified 3+, then you haven't disregarded the modifiers and broken the rules.

I read regardless of modifiers to mean a natural, unmodified roll.

I read Overwatch the same way - no amount of modifiers can generate hits. It can generate other things, like overheating plasma guns (as it doesn't say to disregard modifiers totally). It just says to disregard modifiers when generating hits.

And no, always does not mean only... but it does once you add things like "regardless of modifiers." Always doesn't have to mean only, if you add an instruction that subsequently makes it "only" anyways.

So, lets do a rundown if Dark Reapers were firing Overcharged Plasma Guns with a +1 to hit:

You roll a 2. Plus one you would get a 3, and hit, but you have to take the modifier off for the purposes of generating hits, per the FAQ answer, and so you actually miss.

You roll a 1. Plus one you would get a 2. This does not generate a hit, and so does not violate the "always hits on a 3+ regardless of modifiers" clause, meaning you do not overheat.

I apply the same logic to overwatch.

Regardless of any modifier they hit on a 3+
If you roll a 2, and modify it to a 3, have they hit? No, because they have only rolled a 3 because of a modifier.
Your parsing is incorrect as you do not apply “any”

Dionysodorus wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It appears you're arguing for a hypothetical situation that (AFAIK) isn't relevant, because Dark Reapers have no extra effects possible based on the dice roll.

They hit, on a 3+, or they miss, on a 1 or a 2. Re-rolls also happen before modifiers, so there's no effect there. They don't generate extra shots on 6+ (to my knowledge). So anything beyond "they hit on a natural 3+" is irrelevant.

Yes, I've noted a few times that I don't think this actually comes up in real games.

But you're just making up the rule that they miss on a 1 or 2. Nothing says that.

Are you joking now? How else do you interpret the result of 1 or 2 if the unit "always hits on 3+". It's a miss. I'm making nothing up, thanks.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If they don't roll an unmodified 3+, then they don't hit, because if you've hit on a modified 3+, then you haven't disregarded the modifiers and broken the rules.

I read regardless of modifiers to mean a natural, unmodified roll.

I read Overwatch the same way - no amount of modifiers can generate hits. It can generate other things, like overheating plasma guns (as it doesn't say to disregard modifiers totally). It just says to disregard modifiers when generating hits.

And no, always does not mean only... but it does once you add things like "regardless of modifiers." Always doesn't have to mean only, if you add an instruction that subsequently makes it "only" anyways.

This just doesn't strike me as a plausible interpretation, and I note that you're not actually addressing the example I gave. Is it true or not that Dark Reapers always hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers? Surely most people, who haven't been primed to believe that the answer to that question determines something else that they're already invested in, would agree that they do. Right? Of course they always hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers. They also hit on 5s, 4s, and 3s, but that's beside the point. This sort of statement simply has nothing to say about what happens when the condition is not met.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If they don't roll an unmodified 3+, then they don't hit, because if you've hit on a modified 3+, then you haven't disregarded the modifiers and broken the rules.

I read regardless of modifiers to mean a natural, unmodified roll.

I read Overwatch the same way - no amount of modifiers can generate hits. It can generate other things, like overheating plasma guns (as it doesn't say to disregard modifiers totally). It just says to disregard modifiers when generating hits.

And no, always does not mean only... but it does once you add things like "regardless of modifiers." Always doesn't have to mean only, if you add an instruction that subsequently makes it "only" anyways.

This just doesn't strike me as a plausible interpretation, and I note that you're not actually addressing the example I gave. Is it true or not that Dark Reapers always hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers? Surely most people, who haven't been primed to believe that the answer to that question determines something else that they're already invested in, would agree that they do. Right? Of course they always hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers. They also hit on 5s, 4s, and 3s, but that's beside the point. This sort of statement simply has nothing to say about what happens when the condition is not met.

I didn't really understand your question. Of course the statement is true, because it's not in direct contravention of the rules like applying a +1 modifier to the roll of a 2 would be.

The rules don't say "Dark Reapers hit on a 6+ regardless of modifiers". If they did, we'd be having that argument.

The rules say "Dark Reapers hit on a 3+ regardless of any modifiers."

Adding +1 to a 2 or +2 to a 1 is a modifier.

I don't really know why this is so hard.

Where does it say that Dark Reapers ONLY hit on a 3+ regardless of modifiers?

 Happyjew wrote:
Where does it say that Dark Reapers ONLY hit on a 3+ regardless of modifiers?

It doesn't. It just says they hit on a 3+ regardless of modifiers.

Is a 2 or a 1 without modification a 3+?