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Hi all! I’m Shaun and new to WH40k. About a decade ago I bought a few items from a Games Workshop. I wasn’t a very good painter at the time and I preferred my Airfix/Revell models as they were much larger scale. I wasn’t really into playing WH as a game. Then, I became obsessed with video games for the next 10 years. Now, video games are beginning to bore me, so I’ve been watching a gak load of Warhammer stuff on YouTube and the various wikis around. I’m intrigued to get painting and playing. I bought one of them get started boxes with the 3 marines and paints, and I’m happy how they came out. I’d love to make my own army with my own colours. My issue is what to collect.

Both the Space Marines and Tau intrigued me at first, but I’ve decided I wanted an army that had a balance of ranged and melee units, so Tau is basically out of the question. Therefore all my attention is on the Space Marines, but after reading deeper into them, I’ve concluded (correct me if I’m wrong) only the elite units are particularly good at melee, whereas I’d rather have a mix of melee and ranged standard troops. The assault squad is an issue; I’d have to spend twice as much to get a squad of 10 than tactical, but tacticals generally cannot carry chainswords, bar the one leader.

This is where the issue arises; some Space Marine codexes allow tacticals to carry chainswords, while another allows assault squads to become normal troops if you have a certain character (but I’d still be paying double to make a squad of ten).

The next problem is if I can find a way to have tacticals to carry chainswords, I’d still need to find the chainswords models somewhere, and I don’t know where. I’ve looked on the GW store; the mark III marines can all carry chainswords but I’m not a fan of the armor. Mark IV looks great, but doesn’t have the option of chainswords. I’m not sure how the combat knives compare.

Can someone put me in the right direction here? Which codex would be best for me and where can I find the right models?

Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.

best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.

If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?


you can always kit bash the sarge with a chain sword from some other kit. or just ebay the bits also the standard tactical kit comes with one chainsword.

alternatively chaos has a lot of shooty punchy options too. also agressors have a ton of shooting and their powerfists are no joke.

Buy lots of Scouts. You want Scouts.

 Desubot wrote:
Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.

best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.

If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?

I would consider them. Question is if I’d be allowed to use their codexes but with the generic space marine models, using my own colours so I don’t have to for instance use the space wolves’ more elaborate armor.

Also, give the assault marines cost the same amount of points as tacticals if I remove the jump packs and have a squad of 10, how do they fair in close combat against a similar counterpart? Is it even worth me having melee squads with base weaponry?

What about those Primaris reavers? Or are they really costly?

ShaunyP wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.

best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.

If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?

I would consider them. Question is if I’d be allowed to use their codexes but with the generic space marine models, using my own colours so I don’t have to for instance use the space wolves’ more elaborate armor.

Also, give the assault marines cost the same amount of points as tacticals if I remove the jump packs and have a squad of 10, how do they fair in close combat against a similar counterpart? Is it even worth me having melee squads with base weaponry?

What about those Primaris reavers? Or are they really costly?

No one is going to have an issue with doing that typically. And of they do they are just being sour.

Assault marines without jump packs are... not the best but not bad. Really if you want a close combat unit like that the advice to look at blood angels / dark angels / space wolves is good advice.

Can't help with primaris.

Assault Marines are not required to take Jump Packs. You can't give them specials/heavies, and aren't troops (more on that in a second), but otherwise are the same.

You could take an Outrider detatchment, which basically means you take Fast Attacks instead of Troops. I prefer to have troops in my games, but that's me.

Assault Marines (or chainsword Tacs) aren't very competitive. If you want to win a lot at tournies, not the way to go. But if you want to play games, it can work fine.

I'd suggest you check out Space Sharks. I don't know if they currently have rules, but they're loyalists who do Tacs with Chainswords. The other option is CSM. Most of the time, however, when you're looking something to be chainsword- or ASM- heavy, you're not going to have many shooting options.

Marines are the army most players start with for many good reasons. Not that it's only a starter army, but rather that you can pivot where you're going to with your force if you pick something "mainstream" (the SM or CSM books). Dark Angels can do choppy or shooty too. BAs are mainly CC, and SW are more CC than shooty.

I'd seriously consider more what you like the look of than what works. Tac Marines have been both garbage members of the top lists quite often over the past few years (arguably both at the same time, at times).

Also, you don't need to use an established Chapter or Legion - you just need to decide which one most closely aligns to your force. So you can make up your own chapter and use the rules for an existing one.

I would suggest getting an ASM squad and a Tac squad (with boltguns and upgrades, not chainswords), and try them out in a game or three. See what you like.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Buy lots of Scouts. You want Scouts.

How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.

Run vanguards, not assault marines. Period. The ability to equip storm shields on 18 ppm models that move 12" can REALLY mess with some enemy units that rely on AP for killing power.

Regardless of what GW says, or really anyone says, marines are NOT a good starter army. It is incredibly easy to build a list that is downright awful. You have to know EXACTLY what you are looking at with marines to even have a hope vs say the DG starter army.

You could totally run some unknown founding chapter that generally practices aggression tactics counts as sw or ba.

just make it clear to the opponent.

Assault marines with or without jump packs do exactly the same thing in CC the only diffrence is mobility and protection assuming you take a transport.

reivers are ok. has cool anti overwatch tech but otherwise functions by generating lots of str4 wounds vs special weapons bypassing armor.

ShaunyP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Buy lots of Scouts. You want Scouts.

How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.

First off, scouts have a very important function. They are allowed to set up outside your deployment zone, which can severely mess with your opponent's infiltration abilities that are formatted as "such and such must be more than 9" from an enemy model". Scouts are only limited by the enemy deployment zone, and they set up BEFORE most stratagem shenanigans.

Thier actual killing power is almost an afterthought compared to positional advantage.

ShaunyP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Buy lots of Scouts. You want Scouts.

How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.

They do alright. All my Scouts have Shotguns and Combi-Plasma as that's what I had last edition. Advancing and shooting is pretty niche but it does happen.

 Desubot wrote:
You could totally run some unknown founding chapter that generally practices aggression tactics counts as sw or ba.

just make it clear to the opponent.

Assault marines with or without jump packs do exactly the same thing in CC the only diffrence is mobility and protection assuming you take a transport.

reivers are ok. has cool anti overwatch tech but otherwise functions by generating lots of str4 wounds vs special weapons bypassing armor.

It’s my intention to make my own chapter, I’m just a bit confused on with codex to use. I’ll have to look more in depth into the BA, DA and SW.

Sort of had an idea of my own chapter that perhaps uses tacs, scouts, devs and terminators with miniguns etc to weaken and wound, then have assault marines or vets to run in/jump in and finish off. Obviously I’ve never played a game so I’ll have to try it out first. I just don’t want to make the mistake of buying the wrong units, as this can be a pretty expensive hobby.

For a new player, the base marine book basically has many different armies in it. Don't start with a specialist chapter.

Martel732 wrote:
Run vanguards, not assault marines. Period. The ability to equip storm shields on 18 ppm models that move 12" can REALLY mess with some enemy units that rely on AP for killing power.

Regardless of what GW says, or really anyone says, marines are NOT a good starter army. It is incredibly easy to build a list that is downright awful. You have to know EXACTLY what you are looking at with marines to even have a hope vs say the DG starter army.

Is there some sort of ratio limit of elites to troops? I’ve read that the 1st company has all the veterans while the rest of the companies do not, so if I had a huge army with more than one company, I’d have to use tacs or assaults instead; isnt that the case? Also is a squad of veterans limited to 5?

There are detachments to accommodate nearly any list composition. Detachments with more troop requirements have a tendency to give more command points, though.

Tacs are troops
Assault marines are fast attack
Vanguards are elites

You generic battallion will require 3 troops and 2 HQs and provide 3 CP, but then you can take any number of the other types. So you could take 3 elites, like 3 vanguards and zero fast attack, as in zero assault marine squads.

For comparison, there is a detachment that is one HQ, and a ton of elite slots, but only gives 1 CP.

You are generally going to be building in detachments.

depending on the detachment and bonuses you are trying to go for it can limit what you can take.

but generally the easiest one to do at 2k at the least is the battalion. which makes you take 2 hq min 3 max, 3 troops min 6 max, and the rest was iirc 6 max elite units, 3 fa and hs.

id see if you could get your hand on the main rule book as you are going to need it eventually anyway.

 Desubot wrote:
You are generally going to be building in detachments.

depending on the detachment and bonuses you are trying to go for it can limit what you can take.

but generally the easiest one to do at 2k at the least is the battalion. which makes you take 2 hq min 3 max, 3 troops min 6 max, and the rest was iirc 6 max elite units, 3 fa and hs.

id see if you could get your hand on the main rule book as you are going to need it eventually anyway.

Am I to assume this is the rulebook?
http://www.warhammerdigital.com/warhammer-40000/featured/dark-imperium-ebook.html
I’m getting confused between this and the chapter approved 2017 edition. Do I just need the one or both?

Chapter approved is updated points costs, additional rules for things that havent gotten a codex and some new mission type things. you really only need
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40000-rulebook-eng-2017
and the codex. or index for one that does not have a codex

its not necessary to play but its necessary to play the way people usually do.

i guess the best thing to do is ask your local group.

Worry about what you want to build/paint/play. DOn't worry about what's effective until you know the game.

 Desubot wrote:
Chapter approved is updated points costs, additional rules for things that havent gotten a codex and some new mission type things. you really only need
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40000-rulebook-eng-2017
and the codex. or index for one that does not have a codex

its not necessary to play but its necessary to play the way people usually do.

i guess the best thing to do is ask your local group.

So the rulebook and the space marines codex

ShaunyP wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Chapter approved is updated points costs, additional rules for things that havent gotten a codex and some new mission type things. you really only need
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40000-rulebook-eng-2017
and the codex. or index for one that does not have a codex

its not necessary to play but its necessary to play the way people usually do.

i guess the best thing to do is ask your local group.

So the rulebook and the space marines codex

Pretty much. You can get the point updates from a buddy.

... And nobody will care for the first 3 months or so you play, anyways.

Reading through the codex and refering to forums and wikis... being shieldy sounds nice; is it true that storm shields are no longer classed as weapons, so can be carried with whatever, ei a power sword or relic blade? Also is the invulnerable save worth it; would I face many enemies that deal wounds ignoring armor saves?

Storm shields are great, but you only want so many, because mortal wounds ignores them.

So what units would you all recommend me get to start with, play some games and adjust accordingly? I’ve seen a few recommend 2 tactical marine squads and 2 rhinos to move them around, and possibly a captain to replace one tac marine. I’m not too fond of vehicles however, except perhaps a nice dreadnought. What would you all recommend?

Easiest thing to do would be just get one or two starter sets and see where it goes from there.
Anything with two troops and an hq.

The start collecting box on gw site gives you a terminator captain and one 10man which can be split into 2 5 men tac squads and a venerable dread.

from there you could add whatever you wanted.

otherwise primarus isnt all that bad and if you can find some one to split it you could get two dark imperium sets and have more marines than you could shake a stick at.

How about 2x10man tac squads and a captain, just to start off easy with all infantry/on foot?

Would be fine for starter games.

dont have my book but thats like about 500 points ish before upgrades.

you could probably get some heavy or fast attack slot to fill it up to 750 after that then another to 1k

after which you should probably have figured out what you want to do.

Yes I was thinking about perhaps a devastator squad or assault squad with eviserator later for anti-vehicular support. I guess my main concern is the initial cost of paints etc. I’m not even 100% on a colour scheme yet.

You’re definitely on the right track starting with Codex Space Marines. It’s the perfect starter army - easy to learn and forgiving of early mistakes, but challenging and very rewarding to master. Plus it has the biggest range of models, great capacity to kitbash between almost all model kits and has a combination of large surfaces and fine details to develop your painting skills as you go.

Once you’ve chosen Codex Space Marines as your faction, you get to pick one of 9 subfactions (Chapters) - Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands or your own Chapter. Choosing one of the 8 named Chapters gives you access to two things: one or more special characters and some Chapter-specific rules.

For example, Salamanders can use Vulkan He’stan - a tough leader with a spear - and their special rules give them more reliable weapons. Raven Guard, on the other hand, can use Kayvaan Shrike - a fast leader with a Jump Pack and special Lightning Claws - and their special rules make them stealthier than other Chapters.

If you make up your own Chapter, you get to pick which of the 8 named Chapters’ rules best suit your army. For example, if you’re making up a Chapter or tough guys, you would use Iron Hands special rules. If you’re making a very well-armed army, you might use Salamanders special rules.

You can even use the special characters rules on a guy of your own devising. Say your home brew Chapter is going to use Salamanders rules. You can field a Captain of your Chapter and use Vulkan He’stan’s rules. It’s not actually Vulkan He’stan - that guy is very much part of the Salamanders Chapter - but you can use his rules to represent your own Captain, provided you’re using the correct Chapter rules. So if you’re using Salamanders Chapter Tactics, you can use Vulkan’s rules, but not Shrike’s - to use Shrike’s rules for your Captain you’d have to be using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics.

From the sound of what you want to do, I would very strongly recommend using Black Templars Chapter Tactics for your Chapter. These guys’ main special rule gives them more reliable charges into close combat. It allows you to be almost guaranteed to succeed in charges that other Chapters would try, and lets you go for long charges other Chapters can’t risk. They also have some ability to ward off your opponent’s most powerful psychic attacks.

They get 3 special characters: High Marshal Helbrecht, Chaplain Grimaldus and the Emperor’s Champion. Pound for pound I reckon Helbrecht and the Champion are the best leaders in the book. Having 3 different characters on top of all the generic Captains and so on gives you a great ability to make up some of the leaders of your own Chapter with lots of fun rules.

What really screams Black Templars to me about what you want to do though is that as well as special characters they get a special troops choice unique to Black Templars rules: the Crusader Squad. They’re essentially Tactical Squads, but with a few extra options. First, they can swap their Bolters for Chainswords, so you can use them for close combat or shooting. You can even mix and match in the same squad if you really like - like having 3 Bolters and 3 Chainswords plus say a Missile Launcher and a sergeant with a Thunder Hammer. They can also choose to take a specialised close combat weapon instead of a heavy weapon. I think these guys will give you the flexibility of close combat and shooting you’re after, and only Templars can do it with their basic troops. The Crusader squad also lets you mix in up to 10 Scouts in the same squad as the regular guys (they call their Scouts Neophytes when they do this, but it’s your Chapter so they can be called whatever you damned well please). They can also still field normal Tactical Squads and Scout Squads - they aren’t tied to only using Crusader Squads.

Black Templars’ natural weakness is that they’re a close combat oriented army because of their background. Fluff wise they don’t use Devastators or Scouts or other things, but that won’t stop you if you’re making your own Chapter. If you want your fluff to be that your Chapter uses both Devastators and Crusaders, then that’s what they do.

In terms of rules, Templars have one built-in weakness - you don’t get to have access to more stuff than the other Chapters without giving something up. They’re not allowed to use Librarians. As in, it is stipulated that a Librarian can never be given Black Templars Chapter Tactics. Now, if this is a deal breaker for you, then there are ways around that I can tell you so you can field your Chapter’s Librarians.

Best of luck, and welcome!