Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Honestly, what you want is Chaos Space Marines. Unless you hate how they look or have to be the "good guy" or dont like playing saturday morning cartoon bad guys.

ShaunyP wrote:
Yes I was thinking about perhaps a devastator squad or assault squad with eviserator later for anti-vehicular support. I guess my main concern is the initial cost of paints etc. I’m not even 100% on a colour scheme yet.

Painting and cost you just got to plan it out.

if you want to keep it very simple i would suggest something like army painter spray primers and their color matched hair brush paints.

though spray paints can be fiddly at times.

other wise black is even easier and much cheaper. just never ever paint white or yellow. it is literal hell.

personally if i was starting all over again and wanted to do a good looking beater army id spray prime the color, hair brush any spots i missed, do details , make a big batch of wash and just knock them out then seal them with a spray varnish. instead i went imperial fists with air brushed yellow :/

ShaunyP wrote:Yes I was thinking about perhaps a devastator squad or assault squad with eviserator later for anti-vehicular support. I guess my main concern is the initial cost of paints etc. I’m not even 100% on a colour scheme yet.

I would not consider an Assault Squad to be antitank support.

Also, 2x10 is almost certainly inferior to 4x5 when it comes to Tacticals.

Crunch-wise, 4x5 is going to be better.

Starting the game? At least 1x10, probably 2x10.

Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Bharring wrote:
Crunch-wise, 4x5 is going to be better.

Starting the game? At least 1x10, probably 2x10.

Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.

get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.

 Desubot wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Crunch-wise, 4x5 is going to be better.

Starting the game? At least 1x10, probably 2x10.

Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.

get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.

I wouldn't call it "super competitive".

You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.


I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.


Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.



You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback

As a starting place.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You also shouldn’t play something aggressively sub-optimal.

Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.

I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.

Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.

You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Crunch-wise, 4x5 is going to be better.

Starting the game? At least 1x10, probably 2x10.

Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.

get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.

I wouldn't call it "super competitive".

You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.


I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.


Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.



You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback

As a starting place.

Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.

I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?

I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!

Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kombatwombat wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You also shouldn’t play something aggressively sub-optimal.

Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.

I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.

Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.

You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.

A great explanation, thanks! I don’t plan on being super competitive, but I don’t want to be in a situation where I lose every damn game.

There is no current model for a lieutenant.

only a Primarus lieutenant.

Best option would be to cannibalize a sternguard kit

they look blinged out enough to be some sort of character.

A Lieutenant is a Marine that is more-blinged than a Sarge and less-blinged than a Captain.

One of the best things of the SM line is it's wholly up to you what bits from which kits you use, and exactly how he looks (as long as he looks the part)!

Sternie kit would be my suggestion, if you got the old Captain kit instead of the clampack - or some bits from somoene who did - you could kitbash a normal Tac marine with the extra bling.

I would still suggest at least 1 10man, even if you CombatSquad, so that you can get used to how special weapons and heavy weapons work in the same list.

Preds can be some very nice fire support for your Marines. QuadLas can really put the hurt into big stuff, and Auto/HB has a lot of shots. So if you want something big backfield, not a bad choice.

Termies are a heavy threat. Harder to remove. If they get into CC they'll do some damage. Nominal shooting. Works, but I think you'll enjoy having a Pred or Dread more, at first. I'd get them before too long, though.

Dreads can be a lot of fun. Pack a punch, and have some shooting. Not the easiest thing for the other guy to remove, either. A good anchor to threaten anything trying to charge your Tacs.

If you do a 10man, don't start with a Razorback. If you do 5mans, you can (I'd suggest going Rhino instead - you can fit 2 5mans or a 5man and your captain). Razorbacks have some good shooting for their points, now - but it'll detract from it's use as a transport.

I wouldn't double up on Lieutenants yet. Try a few games first.

First things first - choose what style you want to play. Are you going to be "in your face" with close combat? Black Templar and Blood Angels will be good options to look at. Do you want to bring more bullets than your enemy has blood cells? Perhaps Imperial Fists, Salamanders, or Ultra Marines will be chapters to consider. That will help you decide what sort of units you are going to buy, but outside of units that are chapter specific you will be able to mix and match to your hearts content.

To get your feet wet the standard tac units with a captain is a good plan. Add in a dev squad or maybe an elite troop... like say a dread. The getting started box for SM (I think someone mentioned it already) is a real good box to start with, and you can add from there.

As far as painting, I would strongly suggest going with the GW black spray paint. Its going to give you a very nice base coat. The price is a tad higher than other brands, but i feel that the quality of the base coat I have gotten from the GW paint has been worth every cent! My experience with P3 and Army Painter hasn't been bad, but it hasn't been nearly as good either.

Welcome to the community, and remember that you want to focus on what will make this hobby FUN for you.

Bharring wrote:
A Lieutenant is a Marine that is more-blinged than a Sarge and less-blinged than a Captain.

One of the best things of the SM line is it's wholly up to you what bits from which kits you use, and exactly how he looks (as long as he looks the part)!

Sternie kit would be my suggestion, if you got the old Captain kit instead of the clampack - or some bits from somoene who did - you could kitbash a normal Tac marine with the extra bling.

I would still suggest at least 1 10man, even if you CombatSquad, so that you can get used to how special weapons and heavy weapons work in the same list.

Preds can be some very nice fire support for your Marines. QuadLas can really put the hurt into big stuff, and Auto/HB has a lot of shots. So if you want something big backfield, not a bad choice.

Termies are a heavy threat. Harder to remove. If they get into CC they'll do some damage. Nominal shooting. Works, but I think you'll enjoy having a Pred or Dread more, at first. I'd get them before too long, though.

Dreads can be a lot of fun. Pack a punch, and have some shooting. Not the easiest thing for the other guy to remove, either. A good anchor to threaten anything trying to charge your Tacs.

If you do a 10man, don't start with a Razorback. If you do 5mans, you can (I'd suggest going Rhino instead - you can fit 2 5mans or a 5man and your captain). Razorbacks have some good shooting for their points, now - but it'll detract from it's use as a transport.

I wouldn't double up on Lieutenants yet. Try a few games first.

Question of 5 man tactical squads is what do I give the sergeants and what heavy/special do I give? Can’t heavies only fire after moving the previous turn? I’m not sure in the point of taking them as tacticals will probably be moving most of the time...

1. Create a paint scheme that can be counts-as any chapter. Who is good will rotate.

2. Don't buy ANY primaris models. Maybe you could get the Inceptors, but wait till chapter approved on anything primaris. Most of it is flat out bad.

3. Make a shooty SM army to start. Assault is rather bad for elite armies and generalists.

 Karthicus wrote:
First things first - choose what style you want to play. Are you going to be "in your face" with close combat? Black Templar and Blood Angels will be good options to look at. Do you want to bring more bullets than your enemy has blood cells? Perhaps Imperial Fists, Salamanders, or Ultra Marines will be chapters to consider. That will help you decide what sort of units you are going to buy, but outside of units that are chapter specific you will be able to mix and match to your hearts content.

To get your feet wet the standard tac units with a captain is a good plan. Add in a dev squad or maybe an elite troop... like say a dread. The getting started box for SM (I think someone mentioned it already) is a real good box to start with, and you can add from there.

As far as painting, I would strongly suggest going with the GW black spray paint. Its going to give you a very nice base coat. The price is a tad higher than other brands, but i feel that the quality of the base coat I have gotten from the GW paint has been worth every cent! My experience with P3 and Army Painter hasn't been bad, but it hasn't been nearly as good either.

Welcome to the community, and remember that you want to focus on what will make this hobby FUN for you.

Thanks. I definitely want an ‘in your face, SlashyMcBashy’ type army, but with some long range support. I’d like most of my elites to support the front lines in melee, but perhaps some tanks, cannons and devastators at the rear. Mainly, I’d eventually like a lot of assault squads, complimented by jump pack vanguard veterans, elites and HQs. Just imagine a lot of hand to hand carnage.

Although I’m not sure how successful this would be, as I don’t really understand the jump pack ability yet;after the movement phase, jump pack units can be placed atleast 9” from enemy units, and then in the charge phase they can charge if successful, then hack and slash?

Honestly I wish tacs could carry chainswords because even if I had assaults without the jump packs, they’re still classed as fast attack. I’ve heard some chapters can have chainswords with tacticals, but currently there’s no models to support this.

I don't know if you're set on loyalist Space Marines, but Death Guard can make a pretty mean close-combat army. Every Plague Marine can take what is basically a better equivalent of a power weapon, you have deep-striking elites like the Deathshroud and Blightlords, and long-range fire support is fulfilled very handily by units like the Plagueburst Crawler. Most of the army is very slow and will be tricky to get into charging range, but there are great, fast moving support units like Daemon Princes, Foetid Blight Drones and Mortarion. Just a thought.

I'm definitely feeling the BA or maybe SF in that post. Possibly even CSM (all of which can be made from the same kits).

The Assault Marine kits come with chainswords. Not sure how many. And if they don't have backpacks, they're basically the same as Tacs. Further, you can mix 'n match basically any Power Armor Marine kits (Tacs, Devs, ASM, Sternies, VV, even CSM and chapter-specifc kits). So if you really want chainsword-swinging Marines, find kits that have chainswords.

Jumppack infantry can move further than infantry on foot. So even if you deploy both, those Jumppackers are moving around much faster - making it easier to get the assault.

Jumppackers can 'Deep Strike' (like Terminators and others). This puts them 9" away from anything they want to charge. Odds are, you're failing a 9" charge. Even with rerolls, its less than 50/50. So, typically, you'll drop down turn one then charge turn two. I've killed a *lot* of Marines who counted on dropping in and charging me that turn.

Blood Angels are getting their Codex shortly. You might be interested in them over 'vanilla' Space Marines. But if you're really crazy about chainsword melee awesomeness, it's all about the CSM. Have you looked at what Berzerkers (of Khorne) are? CSM has more and varied CC threats than Loyalists. They still have Devestators (called Havoks), and some long-range firepower too.

Perhaps I should just buy the starter set, practice painting on them then play some games. I can add and remove accordingly. I’d definitely want to replace the captain with my own and pla6 around with green stuff to truly make my own chapter.

If you do look at CSM, a basic understanding is there are 4 gods (and not everything needs to be aligned).

Khorne is the Blood God (Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!). Devotees are caked in blood (red) and tear things apart (Berserkers and such).

Nurgle is the god of disease and decay (Papa Nurgle - the only chaos god to actually care for his followers). Devotees are plagued and festering, but draw unnatural durability from that. They look disgusting (as in bile and pus), and have poop-green style colors.

There's more, of course. But wanted to point those out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That sounds like a great idea, ShaunyP. The basics can be any chapter (except Thousand Suns, but we don't need to get into that. Or the two Legions who were [redacted].).

Also regarding loyalty, I don’t mind being loyal or unloyal, but I’m not too keen on chaos. I’ll have a good look though see what I think.

Chaos is where it's at. Death to the false emperor!

You traitors are just jealous we got Terra in the divorce!

Well yeah, it's the only place they serve decent shaved ice.

ShaunyP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Buy lots of Scouts. You want Scouts.

How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.

If you don't want an army that 'sucks', you're going to need to do some investigative work on what your local gaming scene (meta) looks like. If people there are 'casual', then most lists will work. If they're hardcore/tournament style, then you need to be really careful how you build your army or else it will suck and suck hard. Which will be money down the drain if you choose to continue playing and have to buy a 'competitive' army on top of what you've already spent.

As far as 'competitive' marine armies go, bobby g (roboute guilliman) and asscan razors (razorbacks with twin-linked assault cannons) seem to be the flavour of the day.

Can tell I’m gonna like this hobby lol!

A question regarding the Black Templars; they have the crusader squads full of initiates and can be armed with chainswords. Currently I can’t find a new box of them anywhere. Is there anything to stop me taking some tacticals or assaults without jump packs, giving them all chainswords, and calling them crusader initiates?

Also, if I had crusader initiates, would I have to go black Templars and use their codex (if they have one), as they’re included in the generic space marine codex playsheets.

The fact that chainswords get one extra attack means all of them could have 2 attacks each and the sergeant/sword brother could have 3 seems very nice. A 10 man could potentially get 21 attacks in the fight phase.

I don't have the book in front of me, and don't play a chapter that uses Neophytes/Initiates - so I can't answer if you need to choose BT tactics to use that entry.

But BT are one of the chapters in the Space Marine codex - so that's what you'd use.

Are the Initiates a 3+ save of a 4+ save? If it's a 4+, those would look better if you used Scout models.

Another point is that, if you want to have a squad do decent in combat, give Sarge a power weapon. They can't kill Sarge until they've killed everyone else, so not only does he get more attacks, but he'll survive the longest. And even one model with a power weapon can greatly increase the squad's CC ability.

ShaunyP wrote:
Can tell I’m gonna like this hobby lol!

A question regarding the Black Templars; they have the crusader squads full of initiates and can be armed with chainswords. Currently I can’t find a new box of them anywhere. Is there anything to stop me taking some tacticals or assaults without jump packs, giving them all chainswords, and calling them crusader initiates?

Also, if I had crusader initiates, would I have to go black Templars and use their codex (if they have one), as they’re included in the generic space marine codex playsheets.

The fact that chainswords get one extra attack means all of them could have 2 attacks each and the sergeant/sword brother could have 3 seems very nice. A 10 man could potentially get 21 attacks in the fight phase.

Can you use regular tacticals with chainswords as initiates? Yes.

Should you use the codex for Black Templar if you're playing that army? Yes, although BT are rolled into the normal Space Marine codex.

Extra attacks are nice, but you can't forget about strength and AP. 21 Str 4 AP 0 attacks are hardly better than what one 10-man squad of Chaos Cultists or Imperial Guard infantry can put out in ranged fire, at a much more expensive points level. It's also pretty much the same as what a squad of 10 marines with bolters can do already. A squad of ten Plague Marines with 9 Bubotic Axes can make 18 Str 5 AP -2 attacks per turn, albeit at an even higher cost in points. If you're serious about close combat units, try to find some that have some attacks with AP. Look for untis that can take power weapons and the like.

Generally speaking loyalist high-quality CC attacks tend to come from Sarges, Characters, or Elites. Sarges have squaddies to take the wounds. Characters buff your squads and hide behind them. Elites can be more durable (but VV are no more durable than squadies).

Bharring wrote:
Generally speaking loyalist high-quality CC attacks tend to come from Sarges, Characters, or Elites. Sarges have squaddies to take the wounds. Characters buff your squads and hide behind them. Elites can be more durable (but VV are no more durable than squadies).

This is good advice if you insist on playing a loyalist CC army. You're going to be using your regular dudes as chaff to protect your squad leaders and characters, and you're going to want to give the latter power weapons and the like. Regular marines/scouts are just not that good in close combat because they have weak attacks, yet still don't have the numbers to bring things down through sheer volume.

Bharring wrote:
I don't have the book in front of me, and don't play a chapter that uses Neophytes/Initiates - so I can't answer if you need to choose BT tactics to use that entry.

But BT are one of the chapters in the Space Marine codex - so that's what you'd use.

Are the Initiates a 3+ save of a 4+ save? If it's a 4+, those would look better if you used Scout models.

Another point is that, if you want to have a squad do decent in combat, give Sarge a power weapon. They can't kill Sarge until they've killed everyone else, so not only does he get more attacks, but he'll survive the longest. And even one model with a power weapon can greatly increase the squad's CC ability.

Bharring, in the Crusader squad, I can take 5 to 10 initiates (can replace 1 with sergeant) and 5 to 10 neophytes, so can be up to 20 units in the squad:
—Neophytes cost 11 each, have 6 Ld, less than scouts but has the same +4 save. They seem weaker, but can carry chainswords so get the extra attack each.
—Initiates cost 13 each, have 7 Ld like scouts, but get a better +3 save like tac marines. Again, they can carry chainswords so get the extra attack. One can carry a special weapon, and another can choose from a heavy or a power sword, axe, fist or maul.
—Sword Brother has 8 Ld like scout sergeant, and the 2 attacks. They get access to the sergeant weapon list.

This means I can have a squad of 5 with 2 power swords.

Neophytes woud be the Scout bodies I was thinking of. Initiates are full brothers, like you thought they were.

A big rule for Marine CC is casualty selection. You choose. So if you're fighting an about-equal squad, you don't lose a power sword the first 3 times they kill somebody. Many units in this game don't have those "ablaitive wounds". It can be very helpful.