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Yet you just talked about jumping over the screen.

What are these several ways? Because All the BA and BT players are getting crushed because we can't get past 400 pts of guardsmen. Physically get past them. Screens win in the movement phase. They win without firing a shot, and they win before I get to shoot.

If 400pts of Guardsmen are in a 500pt game, that means that's just about all you're taking. An HQ and one small decent toy.

I wasn't specifically referring to a 500 pt game.

The assault marine box should have everything you need to equip a pistol/chainsword crusader squad, this can be supplemented by either devastator, tactical, or sternguard parts depending if you want those special weapons. Of course, you'll also need scouts to form the basis of your newbies if you want to take them in full-sized units.

For the same reason, assault marines with normal backpacks were great for Charcharodon Tacticals too, back when they could do it.

PS: Welcome to the hobby!

Martel732 wrote:Yet you just talked about jumping over the screen.

What are these several ways? Because All the BA and BT players are getting crushed because we can't get past 400 pts of guardsmen. Physically get past them. Screens win in the movement phase. They win without firing a shot, and they win before I get to shoot.

Seraphim can to some degree, depending on deployment pattery, because they move 24" instead of arriving via deep strike. Deep-striking units cannot.


Also, I'm not entirely certain why you can't kill 400 points of Guardsmen. That's only 100 guys, it shouldn't be hard to clear a path with your guns. And, of course, you can reach over it with your mid-range guns.

It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.

Martel732 wrote:
It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.

I do/did. I haven't really had a problem, especially because most people I play with tend to be using russ-tanks over manticores because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. There's also not enough Sentinel screening.

I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.


I run most of my units with as little upgrading as possible beyond what's necessary for the unit to do the job I envision for it.


Question, at risk of becoming off-topic, what are you running?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.

Just look up the standard AM list that has been winning nearly every tournament.

And it's not just IG. That assault marine list would get rocked by 25+ dark reaper lists. They don't even need Soulburst, they can just be craftworld lol.

Or how about chaos superfriends? Your 2+/3++ point sink terminators die to smite just as fast as everything else, and they are still going to struggle to clear brimstones.

It's no secret at this point what success looks like in 8th edition.

I will add though to what others have said - in a casual environment you can run melee marine lists. We don't know what your meta is like. We don't know what the people you play with are like. I can tell you, from personal experience, friends who started with melee armies either quit or switched armies. Not saying that will happen to you, OP, but it does happen. I think you'll have more fun playing a shooting list in 8th edition. And since you're learning, and building a collection, why not start with something that will be a bit more favored by the current game?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.

I do/did. I haven't really had a problem, especially because most people I play with tend to be using russ-tanks over manticores because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. There's also not enough Sentinel screening.

I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.


I run most of my units with as little upgrading as possible beyond what's necessary for the unit to do the job I envision for it.


Question, at risk of becoming off-topic, what are you running?

I've tried a bunch of stuff in 8th. I'm just spamming lascannons atm. Because 400 pts of guardsmen turns off 2K of BA assault tech.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.

I do/did. I haven't really had a problem, especially because most people I play with tend to be using russ-tanks over manticores because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. There's also not enough Sentinel screening.

I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.


I run most of my units with as little upgrading as possible beyond what's necessary for the unit to do the job I envision for it.


Question, at risk of becoming off-topic, what are you running?

I've tried a bunch of stuff in 8th. I'm just spamming lascannons atm. Because 400 pts of guardsmen turns off 2K of BA assault tech.

How about plasma inceptors with CA? Or just regular inceptors. I heard they got a significant price drop (haven't picked up chapter approved yet).

Haven't played with CA yet. Probably gonna use the bolter guys and heavy bolter attack bikes to try to clear screens.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Did I actually read someone trying to recommend double Bolt Pistols on Vanguard?

Yes. I'm away from my index right now, and don't own the standard SM codex anyway, is that not legal?p

I don't think it's bad. They kill about 4 GEQ each phase with re-rolls, which, for 80 points isn't bad. I think 2x Bolt Pistol is better than Pistol-Chainsword. At some point the unit becomes too expensive yes?

Martel732 wrote:You can't jump good screens. That's the whole point of screens.

Well, otherwise drop troops would be unbelievably broken.
There are several ways to deal with screening infantry.

It's legal. It's more the matter that you suggested it as being worth anything.

Perhaps we have a miscommunication: I said some time ago, before I started defending individual units, to field a strong shooting core augmented by threatening melee.

I also have no experience with Eldar. I've seen a lot of Tyranids and Imperial Guard of varying levels of efficiency, and a whole damn lot of Space Marines, but only faced Dark Eldar once.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Did I actually read someone trying to recommend double Bolt Pistols on Vanguard?

Yes. I'm away from my index right now, and don't own the standard SM codex anyway, is that not legal?p

I don't think it's bad. They kill about 4 GEQ each phase with re-rolls, which, for 80 points isn't bad. I think 2x Bolt Pistol is better than Pistol-Chainsword. At some point the unit becomes too expensive yes?

It's legal. It's more the matter that you suggested it as being worth anything.

For 80 points, they kill about a squad of guardsmen a turn, and are an immediate concern, at least if backed up with a strong mid-range shooting presence. This isn't bad. It's not the strongest thing ever, but I think it can be used fairly successfully.

Double bolt pistols would be shooting out on say a unit of 5, 10 shots followed by a charge for 11 CC attacks they both do same str same damage so say in a full turn they assuming they dont die, will be 32 attacks.

vs

pistol chain sword which would be 5 shots, 16 attacks and in the opponents turn is another 16 attacks so 37 attacks over the turn.

and pistols are effected by cover.

 Desubot wrote:
Double bolt pistols would be shooting out on say a unit of 5, 10 shots followed by a charge for 11 CC attacks they both do same str same damage so say in a full turn they assuming they dont die, will be 32 attacks.

vs

pistol chain sword which would be 5 shots, 16 attacks and in the opponents turn is another 16 attacks so 37 attacks over the turn.

and pistols are effected by cover.

I'm not interested in the opponent's turn, since the opponent will fall back and perforate them. There's 21 attacks either way, and 2x pistols gets 5 more than pistol-sword if it fails the charge.



Anyway, I think we passed the point of anything useful for SM@500-1000 long ago. I'm bad about rising to people.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Double bolt pistols would be shooting out on say a unit of 5, 10 shots followed by a charge for 11 CC attacks they both do same str same damage so say in a full turn they assuming they dont die, will be 32 attacks.

vs

pistol chain sword which would be 5 shots, 16 attacks and in the opponents turn is another 16 attacks so 37 attacks over the turn.

and pistols are effected by cover.

I'm not interested in the opponent's turn, since the opponent will fall back and perforate them. There's 21 attacks either way, and 2x pistols gets 5 more than pistol-sword if it fails the charge.



Anyway, I think we passed the point of anything useful for SM@500-1000 long ago. I'm bad about rising to people.

And the opponent doesn't always fall back.

If the opponent doesn't fall back you've got bigger problems because you charged into something that beats you in CC.

So if I go black Templars, can I just use their codex but paint my army my own way, even if they look nothing like templars? Also where in the codex mentions their charge tactic as I can’t find it.

Yes.

Your chapter can use the rules for any force it represents.

So if you go BT, then decide later you want to play BA or UM, you can change that.

One caveat is that Crusader Squads don't port over perfectly. But Boltgun Crusaders are Tacs, Chainsword Crusaders are ASM, and Neophytes are Scouts if you do change to another chapter.

Marines are Marines are Marines. A Marine with a Boltgun could be an UltraMarine, Salamander, Blood Angel, or Space Wolf or really any chapter Tac Marine. Or a CSM Marine.

If you create your own chapter (I'm a big fan of that), it's up to you how they fight. How Codex-compliant are they? Do the skuk about? Are they master craftsmen? Are they on a crusade?

I've been playing BA models as marines with no chapter tactics, so sure.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been playing BA models as marines with no chapter tactics, so sure.

Well you're getting red thirst.

I watched a battle report the other night. It wasn't a competitive game, but a squad of Sanguinary Guard murdered a squad of Khorne Berzerkers, that fought first.

I don't think BA will ever beat Imperial Guard, but it's not like they're alone in that regard. But, I could see BA being very competitive against Eldar, and Tyranids.

Of course Khorne berzerkers are chumps when they don't charge. THey're just meqs. My last game, I crippled them with SCOUTS.

Martel732 wrote:
Of course Khorne berzerkers are chumps when they don't charge. THey're just meqs. My last game, I crippled them with SCOUTS.

I though he said the zerks fought first.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Of course Khorne berzerkers are chumps when they don't charge. THey're just meqs. My last game, I crippled them with SCOUTS.

I though he said the zerks fought first.

Oh, I misread it. Sanguinary guard are probably the last guys zerkers want to fight, I agree. All those AP 0 attacks. And they won't live to get their round 2 fighting.

The Zerkers had Chain Axes, and yes they did charge. In reality the Sanguinary Guard could be good. They have high mobility and will be charging with 3D6.

But it all depends on cost. And you already know they'll be more expensive than Death Company, whatever Death Company end up costing.