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I have a bit of a phobia about Eldar. Until I recently got into 8th Ed, last time I played was at least 2 editions ago, I played Marines(Imperial Fists), and my friend played Eldar and whooped my ass every game we played. I think we had a draw once, but the rest were slaughters. I got a bit down on Marines back then because they just didn't seem to be able to move and shoot hardly at all, their vehicles were slow and easily popped, and frankly I used Terminators a lot simply for the reason they were one of the few infantry units that could move and shoot past 12". 8th Ed changed all that, my boys can finally move and shoot and I'm very happy with 8th Ed.

That being said, I bought the Eldar Xeno Index to plan my new far more mobile and shooty Marine lineup against my friend. First thing I looked at was Dark Reapers, one of the banes of my Marine's existence before, and they are still brutal. I saw the point cost there, but apparently in the Eldar Codex the price was dropped by 25% down to less than 30 per unit, and I'm wondering what to do against them? Each one is basically equipped with the equivalent of a Marine Missile Launcher with a much better infantry shot profile, hits on a 3+ even if they move, has 3+ armor save, and for just a few points more than I pay just for a Missile Launcher. For 1500pts an eldar army can field 50x Dark Reapers plus Eldrad, and I'm just wondering what the hell I would field that could come close to handling that.

Any of you guys face off against this and have any workable strategies other than making a completely deepstriking army and hope they put enough of a dent during the shooting phase to survive the next turn?

Ally in IG.

They are still T3 dudes no?

just shoot them till they stop moving.

if some one is taking 50 of those in a 1500 game then you have another issue or just one very wealthy opponent.

edit: use cover, deploy properly and hope you go first too never hurt.

20 is usualy enought. Having 1+ save, auspex with unlimited range, -1 to hit and fearless, they are tought as nails even with T3. And guide, doom and general awesomeness of their weapon make them the answer to anything.

Their problem is they are excellent sponge for power multipliers.

I fear them too, but lost only once (5-15) in an unfavorable No Mercy mission. Usualy it is around draw results.
They are hardcountered by brimstones with heralds spam, but many tournaments limit number of same datasheets, so it kinda boosts reapers.

Marines are in sour spot i believe. With serpents eldars will usualy go first, and if you sieze, cracking serpent and kill 10 reapers in the same turn is very hard...

I've had the same problem. They pop vehicles and marines insanely good and their autarch or whatever with the 2d6 no los infantry killer is nasty.

I regularly play against list that include 27 of them and a hemlock and my best mathhammer says assault plasma hellblasters are our best bet. Iron hands for extra survivability in case you don't go first or UM for that sweet guilliman bubble.

24" and 6" move should get you close enough to them (their range is 36" right?) if you can deploy your hellblasters after they deploy the reapers.

The perfect weapon would be 36"+ range, st 4+ and -2ap. I can't find that weapon in our 'dex and my FLGS says no forgeworld but including forgeworld:

whirlwind scorpius seems perfect (no LOS 6d3 re-roll 1's 48", s6, ap -2..) 215 pts so make sure it is out of LOS but not bad at all.
fire raptor
sicarian tanks would work

Wyverns make a mess of dark reapers.

bananathug wrote:

I regularly play against list that include 27 of them and a hemlock

The problem is not reapers in this case, the problem is your opponent being an asshat. I play CWE and that is just overkill.


from a CWE player's perspective:

Deepstrike is not advisable due to forewarned, but you can deal with them in cover the same way you would deal with terminators. Either drown them in low-quality wounds, or hit them with a medium number of multi-damage high AP, OR the third alternative of tying them up with some semi durable and less-expensive assault troops.

the reason for multi-damage on the high AP is to make fortune moot, since the likelyhood of passing two 5+ at once is minimal. Primaris shooting units I would not recommend as a counter, since you are providing a perfect secondary fire target for the reapers you're trying to kill.

IF already have a leg up in that you ignore cover bonuses, so the real problem you have is closing if they're alaitoc, or concealed.

Honestly the best way I've seen for dealing with reapers with forewarned was from a Salamanders opponent, who took multiple deepstrike threats, and then used two units of primaris reivers to both deny overwatch and tie-up/kill the reapers for the rest of the game. The same idea can be applied by just using two units of reivers, since in matched the CWE player can only use forewarned once. Downside is that losing one of the reiver unit is highly likely, so it really comes down to how much damage the reapers do that you want to prevent

Also don't forget to play games with objective, and not just "line up and shoot". That means no eternal war. Play maelstrom, or even better, ITC format.

bananathug wrote:
The perfect weapon would be 36"+ range, st 4+ and -2ap. I can't find that weapon in our 'dex and my FLGS says no forgeworld but including forgeworld:

Sternguard come pretty close with their Special Issue Boltguns, I've included 2x 10 man squads of them in my 2k lineup as is. Problem is they'll likely die to the return salvo the next round, but it is the best solution. ALMOST make me want to put them in a Drop Pod to rapid fire them out, but not enough to actually spend another 100pts just to put them where I want them.

As to the advice up above of just shoot them till they drop, use cover, etc.., the problem is the Reapers can do all that and do it significantly better. I'm still not sure what the solution is, but trying to move and outshoot units that are cheaper, have longer range and much better firepower, shoot better and can move doing it doesn't seem like a viable strategy. I imagine it will include some form of deepstriking. Hell, maybe I'll just pack on 3-4 Eversors and hope the Reapers don't get lucky on Overwatch and I don't get unlucky with a 3D6 charge roll.

You're in for an uphill battle in this edition too, sorry buddy.

I would go with 2 assault cannon storm ravens. You can put them out of range of the reapers, so if your opponent goes first, you won't get shot.

Then, fly across the board and drop 48 hurricane bolter, 24 assault cannon, 4x melta, and 4x stormstrike missiles in his face. Deep strike a chapter master between the two ravens for rerolls, and he can't target him because he's not the closest model even with their cheeseball stratagem.

You will annihilate the reapers with this combo. It's expensive but worth it.

I was playing ITC format and it was a slaughter. I totally ran a sub-optimal ITC format list because it was my first ITC tourney and also I'm an idiot and didn't read the Secondary/primary scoring rules (next time no tanks, larger scout squads, a sniper or two at minimum....)

But, it is really hard to score points off of this list.

Only one screening unit with more than 10 units
Characters screened behind lots of infantry
-1 to hit unit strat + conceal makes it really hard to kill something he doesn't want dead (-3 to hit rangers...)
Only one vehicle and it is really hard to kill

Rest of his points were spent on a screening unit or two and rangers.

Masses (5 units of rangers? maybe 4) of deep-striking make holding objectives easy and at -2 to hit very hard to shift (recon+objective holder).
Ability to snipe with objective holders scored headhunter points (poor primaris psychers x3 by turn 3)
Reapers eat SM tanks and flyers, 5 razorbacks = max big game hunter and killing 2 + stormraven turn one and then 3 turn 2 + scouts = more units killed (moar points)
no LOS launcher + deepstriking ranger wiped all of my scout objective campers so moar points

The combo of great static gunline reapers, cheap and effective scout snipers and extremely mobile+killy flyer all being very hard to hit (-2 pretty much on demand) is a tough nut to crack.

Especially because it is mostly based around infantry so TAC lists with guns that can fight knights + cawlbots, mort+mag, hordes and IG lists (my local meta) struggle with so much long range infantry (most of my anti-infantry stuff was designed with nids/orcs in mind, not engaging at 30"+)

He went first btw so after losing 2 razors and my stormraven (he put one unit of reapers into deepstrike and alpha'd it with help from the hemlock) to alpha strikes it was pretty much over...

Literally any long range Anti Infantry units.

TFC's, WW's, Wyverns, etc.. etc.. Keep them out of LoS and your good.

 Marmatag wrote:
Deep strike a chapter master between the two ravens for rerolls, and he can't target him because he's not the closest model even with their cheeseball stratagem.

You sure about this? I thought because the strat is being used outside of the "shooting phase" that the shooting phase protection for targeting characters didn't apply.

Sure would be nice if it worked this way

bananathug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Deep strike a chapter master between the two ravens for rerolls, and he can't target him because he's not the closest model even with their cheeseball stratagem.

You sure about this? I thought because the strat is being used outside of the "shooting phase" that the shooting phase protection for targeting characters didn't apply.

Sure would be nice if it worked this way

"Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD>units that is itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase."

WindstormSCR wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Deep strike a chapter master between the two ravens for rerolls, and he can't target him because he's not the closest model even with their cheeseball stratagem.

You sure about this? I thought because the strat is being used outside of the "shooting phase" that the shooting phase protection for targeting characters didn't apply.

Sure would be nice if it worked this way

"Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD>units that is itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase."

But wouldn't this imply that you could shoot at "that enemy unit" or is that modified by the "as if it were the shooting phase" which would include the character protection? I seem to remember that noise marines shooting out of phase and soul burst not being constrained by the character targeting rules...

Whatever, that's for another thread, thanks for the quote though!

Either way, land out of LOS and call it a day.

WindstormSCR wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Deep strike a chapter master between the two ravens for rerolls, and he can't target him because he's not the closest model even with their cheeseball stratagem.

You sure about this? I thought because the strat is being used outside of the "shooting phase" that the shooting phase protection for targeting characters didn't apply.

Sure would be nice if it worked this way

"Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD>units that is itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase."

Hrmm. Unless I'm missing something, that's kind of a terrible stratagem, as I think I have yet to play a game where anyone actually uses reinforcements. Because unless I'm mistaken, that works strictly against units that count as 'reinforcements', as detailed in the 'reinforcement points' paragraph in matched play, which are generally limited to certain stratagems, daemon summoning, birthing gaunts, etc.

Most critically, what it doesn't work on are 'deep striking' units, as they are technically not reinforcements.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

WindstormSCR wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Deep strike a chapter master between the two ravens for rerolls, and he can't target him because he's not the closest model even with their cheeseball stratagem.

You sure about this? I thought because the strat is being used outside of the "shooting phase" that the shooting phase protection for targeting characters didn't apply.

Sure would be nice if it worked this way

"Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD>units that is itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase."

Hrmm. Unless I'm missing something, that's kind of a terrible stratagem, as I think I have yet to play a game where anyone actually uses reinforcements. Because unless I'm mistaken, that works strictly against units that count as 'reinforcements', as detailed in the 'reinforcement points' paragraph in matched play, which are generally limited to certain stratagems, daemon summoning, birthing gaunts, etc.

Most critically, what it doesn't work on are 'deep striking' units, as they are technically not reinforcements.

You miss understood, pg 177 BRB on the right it says that Reinforcements are anything coming out of reserves for any and all reasons.

Edit: Just spelling mistakes

page 177 of the rulebook seems to define reinforcements as units that are "...set-up on the battlefield mid-turn sometimes by using teleports, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means."

I'm pretty sure that's the reinforcements this and other similar strats are referring to. As opposed to the reinforcements gained from reinforcement points on pg 214

Inceptors are getting a nice point reduction soon... drop them in and blast away.

When you deepstrike the unit(s) entering the battlefield are reinforcements.

Reinforcements

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement
phase, but it can also happen during other phases.

Deepstriking usually happens at the end of the movement phase.

Ok, thanks. That makes sense, but I just wanted to check.

 Marmatag wrote:
You're in for an uphill battle in this edition too, sorry buddy.

I would go with 2 assault cannon storm ravens. You can put them out of range of the reapers, so if your opponent goes first, you won't get shot.

Then, fly across the board and drop 48 hurricane bolter, 24 assault cannon, 4x melta, and 4x stormstrike missiles in his face..

This should do the trick. Don't even need the melta's for this, you can just use the Heavy Bolters in the nose to save points.

the cosmic serpent wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You're in for an uphill battle in this edition too, sorry buddy.

I would go with 2 assault cannon storm ravens. You can put them out of range of the reapers, so if your opponent goes first, you won't get shot.

Then, fly across the board and drop 48 hurricane bolter, 24 assault cannon, 4x melta, and 4x stormstrike missiles in his face..

This should do the trick. Don't even need the melta's for this, you can just use the Heavy Bolters in the nose to save points.

I like the typhoon launcher. A lot.

 Primark G wrote:
Inceptors are getting a nice point reduction soon... drop them in and blast away.

Honestly Inceptors seem like one of the favorite chew toys of Reapers. 3 man squad is 180pts, thats only 3 failed 5+ saves away from disappearing. Granted, that squad will kill on average 4 Reapers when it drops in, so as long as there isn't another Reaper squad right behind it that might work, but it was Primaris units that seemed like they would be the ones to really resent going up against Dark Reapers as their 2nd wound means nothing, and they aren't likely to get close enough for 2A to be useful either.

I love the idea of Inceptors, but they are absurdly overpriced, even in the Codex vs. Index pricing. If I'm paying 30pts/wound it better have 2+/4+ saves or something equally awesome to justify that expense.

Inceptors are going down in price. A lot. But I still wouldn't DS them within LoS of the Dark Reapers.

Sounds like dark reapers are gonna need an adjustment in March.

Ok, so I'm thinking Vanguard Vets with Storm Shields and Plasma Pistols, and a Power Sword on the Sgt. Little pricey, 147pts for a 5 man squad, but the 3+ Invuln should allow a few to stay on their feet long enough to give some back, and they'll be fast enough to chase them down if they survive to the next round. I like Salamanders so they'll get to reroll a miss and wound when they drop in. Ugly, but seems like it might have a shot.

I certainly wouldn't deepstrike anything primaris since their main mode of fire is 2 DMG.

My approach is artillery which means FW. Quad launchers are cheap enough at 85pts which combined with a scorpius is enough so long as I get good LoS blocking.

Force them out of cover and they die easy. That might mean killing another unit so the reapers have to move to cap an objective.

 buddha wrote:
I certainly wouldn't deepstrike anything primaris since their main mode of fire is 2 DMG.

My approach is artillery which means FW. Quad launchers are cheap enough at 85pts which combined with a scorpius is enough so long as I get good LoS blocking.

Op is a no go on FW.

gotta think inside the box.

i almost want to say take more reivers in min squads and try and lock them into combat. sure you may lose one unit to intercept but they are pretty cheap. or some other cheap DS thing.

Inceptors will root them out due to high rate of fire and can follow up with charge.