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They both have demonic ritual but lacks a aligment keyword but chooses a keyword when they are included.

Also as the summoning is worded (choose a god) I guess Bel'akor is off limits (as he has no marks)

marvin5 wrote:
They both have demonic ritual but lacks a aligment keyword but chooses a keyword when they are included.

Also as the summoning is worded (choose a god) I guess Bel'akor is off limits (as he has no marks)

You are correct, neither can be summoned due to not having an alignment keyword.

Of course you can summon them, they have a rule allowing them to take an alignment keyword.

Belakor is out tho.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Of course you can summon them, they have a rule allowing them to take an alignment keyword.

Belakor is out tho.

Incorrect. Neither the Daemon Prince of Chaos or Soul Grinder have a god keyword. Go ahead, look at the datasheet. It does however have a rule stating "When you include this model in your army, you must choose which of the four Chaos Gods it owes its allegiance to."

Reinforcement points don't have that rule. A Daemon Prince of Chaos cannot be summoned because you do not "include this model in your army." You cannot summon a Daemon Prince of Chaos, end of story. You might not like it, but the rules are crystal clear. Same for the Soul Grinder.

So please, do not state "of course you can" when the rules state you cannot.

Meaningless pedantry, it can assign itself a keyword the moment you need it to. Including a model in an army isn't a phase or a step, it's a state of being.

And the "INTENTIONAL" statement is clearly nonsense, as they have the daemonic ritual rule the intent is crystal clear.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Meaningless pedantry, it can assign itself a keyword the moment you need it to. Including a model in an army isn't a phase or a step, it's a state of being.

And the "INTENTIONAL" statement is clearly nonsense, as they have the daemonic ritual rule the intent is crystal clear.

Pedantry? Following the rules is pedantic now? Is it also pedantic to ask your opponent to measure how far your models move? What about aura keywords, is it pedantic to make sure they match?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Meaningless pedantry, it can assign itself a keyword the moment you need it to. Including a model in an army isn't a phase or a step, it's a state of being.

And the "INTENTIONAL" statement is clearly nonsense, as they have the daemonic ritual rule the intent is crystal clear.

It doesn't have the keyword at the time you summon it, which is before it is in your army. It would only be after you've summoned it that it could get the keyword. Since it doesn't have the keyword at the time you're looking to summon it, you wouldn't be able to summon it.

Actually the rule itself tells us how to deal with it. In the third paragraph of the rule in the index it calls out Furies as being able to be summoned under any god, and they are also missing the keyword on the datasheet. So yeah, you can summon dp's and grinders just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which means that the rule that tells us to choose when we include the unit in our army basically stands in for being able to summon under a given god

So the hangup is on: "When including this model in your army" ?Doesn't that happen during list building?

 deviantduck wrote:
So the hangup is on: "When including this model in your army" ?Doesn't that happen during list building?

No, it happens when you include the model in the army, just like the rule says.

Daemons are summoned via Reinforcement Points, they aren't added to your list. You can't get to the point where you would choose a keyword because it's not a valid option to summon in the first place.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Actually the rule itself tells us how to deal with it. In the third paragraph of the rule in the index it calls out Furies as being able to be summoned under any god, and they are also missing the keyword on the datasheet. So yeah, you can summon dp's and grinders just fine.

Which means that the rule that tells us to choose when we include the unit in our army basically stands in for being able to summon under a given god

The problem is that the wording for Daemonic Ritual in the codex isn't identical to that in the index.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
So the hangup is on: "When including this model in your army" ?Doesn't that happen during list building?

No, it happens when you include the model in the army, just like the rule says.

Daemons are summoned via Reinforcement Points, they aren't added to your list. You can't get to the point where you would choose a keyword because it's not a valid option to summon in the first place.

Except, to reiterate, we are told within the rule what to do with units that can choose a god. Third paragraph of the rule in the index. Has it changed in any of the codexes? I have csm but it's not with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Actually the rule itself tells us how to deal with it. In the third paragraph of the rule in the index it calls out Furies as being able to be summoned under any god, and they are also missing the keyword on the datasheet. So yeah, you can summon dp's and grinders just fine.

Which means that the rule that tells us to choose when we include the unit in our army basically stands in for being able to summon under a given god

The problem is that the wording for Daemonic Ritual in the codex isn't identical to that in the index.

Ah, okay, thanks.

That said, I think it's fair enough to claim RAI on this one, if the datasheets in the codex still have the summoning rule on them. RAW sure, go nuts denying it - nothing works anyway right? But the rule is on their sheet - it could go either way - bad copy paste on the sheet, or typing fail on the rule. I think a reasonable HIWPI includes still being able to summon these units/models.

 Ghaz wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Actually the rule itself tells us how to deal with it. In the third paragraph of the rule in the index it calls out Furies as being able to be summoned under any god, and they are also missing the keyword on the datasheet. So yeah, you can summon dp's and grinders just fine.

Which means that the rule that tells us to choose when we include the unit in our army basically stands in for being able to summon under a given god

The problem is that the wording for Daemonic Ritual in the codex isn't identical to that in the index.

I don't see this as a problem. The Daemon Units with Daemonic Ritual Ability in the CSM Codex are all aligned to a god. If you are summoning a Daemon unit from the Index you would use the version of Daemonic Ritual there which spells out how to deal with units like Furies, Daemon Princes, etc.

So to answer the OP's question, the answer is yes you can summon a soul grinder, the Daemonic Ritual rule from the relevant book (ie, the book that you are summoning the unit from) handles the situation clearly and correctly.

You can Summon the Daemon Prince of Nurgle with no problem though.
It has the Nurgle Keyword in the Death Guard book.

JakeSiren wrote:
I don't see this as a problem. The Daemon Units with Daemonic Ritual Ability in the CSM Codex are all aligned to a god. If you are summoning a Daemon unit from the Index you would use the version of Daemonic Ritual there which spells out how to deal with units like Furies, Daemon Princes, etc.

So to answer the OP's question, the answer is yes you can summon a soul grinder, the Daemonic Ritual rule from the relevant book (ie, the book that you are summoning the unit from) handles the situation clearly and correctly.

Nailed it. If the rule specified only Furies, then it would only apply to Furies, but the wording is specifically "in the case of units that have the choice of allegiance, such as Furies, the unit when summoned will have this keyword". Given the appropriate entries in the Index refer you to P68 of the Index and NOT the CSM Codex, I would argue that is the rule used with those units. You're using an Index Datasheet, thus you use the Index Rule that applies to them. You would only apply any changes made to the rule by Codex CSM if summoning a unit using a Codex CSM datasheet.

Korbee11 wrote:
You can Summon the Daemon Prince of Nurgle with no problem though.
It has the Nurgle Keyword in the Death Guard book.

Can't summon a Death Guard Daemon Prince of Nurgle because it doesn't have Daemonic Ritual.