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So by now I'm sure that among us tau players, everyone and their mother has had a go at this. I'm not looking to put this together and email it to GW and hope they'll take into account the opinion of some random guy- this is more of a thought experiment.

Right now, markerlights are a shadow of what they were before. I spoke very negatively of them in the past, and although my opinion of them has improved somewhat in the games I played since, I believe them to be a bit... underpowered.

Currently, the table reads, for those not in the loop:
1: Re-roll to hit rolls of one
2: Fire seeker and destroyer missiles using normal BS
3: May ignore the penalty for firing a heavy weapon that has moved
4: Ignore cover save bonus
5: +1 to hit

The bonuses, except for 1 and 5, are all situational and often useless. It's a table that has relatively little utility, and is by far inferior to the old one.

My amended table would read:
1: Re-roll to hit rolls of 1
2: Fire missiles at normal BS
3: Ignore up to one penalty. A -2 would become a -1, and a -3 would become a -2, and so on.
4: +1 to hit
5: Ignore cover saves
6: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1

The changes aren't what I think of as too crazy, but all the same it would make the entire army much stronger for using it. I'd place +1 to hit at 4 instead of 5 to make it a bit easier to get there, and I'd simply add a wound re-roll for the sake of improving our ability to hurt things. One of the most important changes would be the ability to not ignore the heavy penalty, but up to one penalty total. The ability to hit a flyer as normal, or even at a 3+ with 4 markerlights, would make a huge difference not just for the few units that carry heavy weapons, but for everyone.

So, am I crazy? Anyone got any alternative ideas?

I'd strip the to-hit bonus out entirely and just give anyone with Shas'Ui rank or higher BS3+, frankly.

1) Reroll 1 to hit
2) Ignore cover
3) Ignore negative hit modifiers
4) Reroll failed hits
5) Reroll 1s to wound
6) Can target units within 12" even if they are characters

SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:
So by now I'm sure that among us tau players, everyone and their mother has had a go at this. I'm not looking to put this together and email it to GW and hope they'll take into account the opinion of some random guy- this is more of a thought experiment.

Right now, markerlights are a shadow of what they were before. I spoke very negatively of them in the past, and although my opinion of them has improved somewhat in the games I played since, I believe them to be a bit... underpowered.

Currently, the table reads, for those not in the loop:
1: Re-roll to hit rolls of one
2: Fire seeker and destroyer missiles using normal BS
3: May ignore the penalty for firing a heavy weapon that has moved
4: Ignore cover save bonus
5: +1 to hit

The bonuses, except for 1 and 5, are all situational and often useless. It's a table that has relatively little utility, and is by far inferior to the old one.

Yes, and the old one would be hideously broken in 8th edition because of the stacking nature with regards to BS there.

My amended table would read:
1: Re-roll to hit rolls of 1
2: Fire missiles at normal BS
3: Ignore up to one penalty. A -2 would become a -1, and a -3 would become a -2, and so on.
4: +1 to hit
5: Ignore cover saves
6: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1

The changes aren't what I think of as too crazy, but all the same it would make the entire army much stronger for using it. I'd place +1 to hit at 4 instead of 5 to make it a bit easier to get there, and I'd simply add a wound re-roll for the sake of improving our ability to hurt things. One of the most important changes would be the ability to not ignore the heavy penalty, but up to one penalty total. The ability to hit a flyer as normal, or even at a 3+ with 4 markerlights, would make a huge difference not just for the few units that carry heavy weapons, but for everyone.

So, am I crazy? Anyone got any alternative ideas?

You're crazy. The ability to ignore the Heavy penalty is huge for the units that can be affected by it. Ghostkeels, Hammerheads, Riptides, Broadsides all benefit from it in a big way as it allows for them to be mobile and suffer no penalties for their Heavy weapons.
If you want "the ability to hit a Flyer as normal" then take a Velocity Tracker. It grants you +1 to hit against things with keyword "Fly", meaning that not only does it solve your issue of "I don't like having a -1 to hit against Flyers" but it also grants you +1 to hit rolls against things like Jump Pack equipped Marines, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Hellions, Bloat Drones, Jetbikes, Land Speeders, Grav-Tanks, etc.

Things that didn't necessarily count for Skyfire before(Jump Packs, Hellions, Jetbikes) now count for the various systems that were Skyfire before. It's actually been making me rethink Hydras in Power level games as they can actually pull their weight against Jetbike heavy lists.

changemod wrote:I'd strip the to-hit bonus out entirely and just give anyone with Shas'Ui rank or higher BS3+, frankly.

I'd like to say I agree, but they haven't really done anything where the unit's sergeant has a different BS than the unit at large.

I would absolutely 100% agree that Crisis Suits at minimum should be given BS3+ though.

1 token should re-roll 1s to hit
2 and 4 tokens should give +1 to hit (or 4th token should ignore -1 penalty to hit from enemies)
3 tokens should ignore cover
5 tokens should let seeker missiles ignore line of sight (and seekers should already fire at normal BS baseline)

If not for the new stratagem I'd have liked a simpler table. Reroll all failed hits would have been nice but modifiers would still be the death of us. Ignore modifiers is very helpful but only puts us on par with un-buffed marines, and when are they not in an aura? What would be really powerful and fun for the Tau player is " target is treated as being 6" closer when determining the abilities of weapons" such as rapid fire or fusion damage. No, not letting you choose a 10" target with flamers. Probably too op, let's see what we get when it happens.

You're crazy. The ability to ignore the Heavy penalty is huge for the units that can be affected by it. Ghostkeels, Hammerheads, Riptides, Broadsides all benefit from it in a big way as it allows for them to be mobile and suffer no penalties for their Heavy weapons.
If you want "the ability to hit a Flyer as normal" then take a Velocity Tracker. It grants you +1 to hit against things with keyword "Fly", meaning that not only does it solve your issue of "I don't like having a -1 to hit against Flyers" but it also grants you +1 to hit rolls against things like Jump Pack equipped Marines, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Hellions, Bloat Drones, Jetbikes, Land Speeders, Grav-Tanks, etc.

Things that didn't necessarily count for Skyfire before(Jump Packs, Hellions, Jetbikes) now count for the various systems that were Skyfire before. It's actually been making me rethink Hydras in Power level games as they can actually pull their weight against Jetbike heavy lists.

Well, the heavy penatly ignoring would still be there- you'd be able to ignore any one penalty, including a heavy penalty. You'd still be at -1 if you moved and fired at a -1 to hit target. This amendment would just allow non-heavy units to hit more effectively as well, expanding the bonus in such a way that everyone can benefit, not just the few units that have heavy weapons and needed to move this turn. Velocity trackers are nice- but only suits can take support systems, and lots of useful units are not suits.

I'd strip the to-hit bonus out entirely and just give anyone with Shas'Ui rank or higher BS3+, frankly.
I'd like to say I agree, but they haven't really done anything where the unit's sergeant has a different BS than the unit at large.

I would absolutely 100% agree that Crisis Suits at minimum should be given BS3+ though.

Yup, suits at 3+ actually wouldn't be overcosted the way they are now. Fat chance of that happening, though.

Vector Strike wrote:1 token should re-roll 1s to hit
2 and 4 tokens should give +1 to hit (or 4th token should ignore -1 penalty to hit from enemies)
3 tokens should ignore cover
5 tokens should let seeker missiles ignore line of sight (and seekers should already fire at normal BS baseline)

Seeker Missiles shouldn't fire at normal BS. For that matter, nor should Smart Missile Systems. Seekers, SMS, and Destroyer Missiles should all require a Markerlight counter to be present on a target to be able to be fired.

I genuinely would not be surprised to see the stage 1 token be rejigged to have a complimentary effect to the "Kauyon" method of war(i.e. since Kauyon allows for you to reroll all failed hit rolls, the stage 1 token instead becomes rerolling failed Wound rolls while Kauyon is active). Having two +1s(which is effectively what the 4th token does in your secondary proposal, because there are very few units that natively have a -1 to Hit. It's primarily been an army thing) is not really a great idea. It's what made Tau so annoying previously.

SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

You're crazy. The ability to ignore the Heavy penalty is huge for the units that can be affected by it. Ghostkeels, Hammerheads, Riptides, Broadsides all benefit from it in a big way as it allows for them to be mobile and suffer no penalties for their Heavy weapons.
If you want "the ability to hit a Flyer as normal" then take a Velocity Tracker. It grants you +1 to hit against things with keyword "Fly", meaning that not only does it solve your issue of "I don't like having a -1 to hit against Flyers" but it also grants you +1 to hit rolls against things like Jump Pack equipped Marines, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Hellions, Bloat Drones, Jetbikes, Land Speeders, Grav-Tanks, etc.

Things that didn't necessarily count for Skyfire before(Jump Packs, Hellions, Jetbikes) now count for the various systems that were Skyfire before. It's actually been making me rethink Hydras in Power level games as they can actually pull their weight against Jetbike heavy lists.

Well, the heavy penatly ignoring would still be there- you'd be able to ignore any one penalty, including a heavy penalty. You'd still be at -1 if you moved and fired at a -1 to hit target.

So what?
-1 to Hit targets usually have a specific quantifier such as "-1 to Hit at 12" or more". I don't see an issue with Tau not being able to ignore that modifier at longer range. Once enough Markerlights get on target anyways("5 or more"), you've mitigated that to begin with thanks to the +1 to Hit. There are not many units that can stack -1 to Hit with something else. There's a few in Eldar but that is basically it for the moment.

If that's what you want, then just come out and say "I want to beat Eldar easier".

This amendment would just allow non-heavy units to hit more effectively as well, expanding the bonus in such a way that everyone can benefit, not just the few units that have heavy weapons and needed to move this turn. Velocity trackers are nice- but only suits can take support systems, and lots of useful units are not suits.

Velocity Trackers are nice and suits are meant to fill the role of heavy support units for the Tau.

Also worth mentioning that the bonus also allows for you to Advance and Fire with Assault weapons at no penalty, meaning that Carbine equipped models(Gun Drones, Pathfinders, Fire Warrior Strike Teams) or a large amount of profiles for the Crisis Suits are able to be a hell of a lot more mobile and mitigate that "-1 to Hit at 12" or further" at the same time.

I'd strip the to-hit bonus out entirely and just give anyone with Shas'Ui rank or higher BS3+, frankly.

I'd like to say I agree, but they haven't really done anything where the unit's sergeant has a different BS than the unit at large.

I would absolutely 100% agree that Crisis Suits at minimum should be given BS3+ though.

Yup, suits at 3+ actually wouldn't be overcosted the way they are now. Fat chance of that happening, though.

Crisis suits at 3+ BS would be a step in the wrong direction. They would just become even more of a glass cannon. They need a price cut and/or an extra wound.

So what?
-1 to Hit targets usually have a specific quantifier such as "-1 to Hit at 12" or more". I don't see an issue with Tau not being able to ignore that modifier at longer range. Once enough Markerlights get on target anyways("5 or more"), you've mitigated that to begin with thanks to the +1 to Hit. There are not many units that can stack -1 to Hit with something else. There's a few in Eldar but that is basically it for the moment.

If that's what you want, then just come out and say "I want to beat Eldar easier".
This amendment would just allow non-heavy units to hit more effectively as well, expanding the bonus in such a way that everyone can benefit, not just the few units that have heavy weapons and needed to move this turn. Velocity trackers are nice- but only suits can take support systems, and lots of useful units are not suits.

Velocity Trackers are nice and suits are meant to fill the role of heavy support units for the Tau.

Space marine fliers are what I've had trouble with mostly, actually. The idea of being able to hit them on a 3+ rather than a 4+ is really, really appealing- and kind of necessary, because fliers tend to hit like a speeding truck and are usually just as durable as one. I feel this is a necessary addition; we shouldn't have to rely on suits, which leads me to...

...we can't rely on suits because almost all of them are overcosted as HELL. Right now: Commanders are great, stealth suits, stormsurges and ghostkeels are okay for their cost, and broadsides, riptides, and XV8s are so god damned expensive and so lacklustre in their role that there's no reason to take them except for a thematic, for-fun battle where you don't care if you win or lose. And even if that was the case, I don't think suits should have to be the backbone of your army- I feel the tau should have more versatility than that.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I dunno. I feel like as a design choice, tau suits have always been at a mediocre 4+ because the entire army is built around synergy and combat support; your suits fire lacklustre on their own but good with markerlights- which combined with the really poor state of current markerlights and the overcosting of suits means the suits stay on the shelf. If the GW design theme gave them 3+ they'd be worth their cost, but I feel like they won't because they'd think that goes against the point of Tau as an army.

pismakron wrote:
Crisis suits at 3+ BS would be a step in the wrong direction. They would just become even more of a glass cannon. They need a price cut and/or an extra wound.

Truthfully, I look at Crisis Suits(and Suits in general) at 3+ BS as being the 'logical step'.

Fire Caste models(Pathfinders, Strike Teams, Breacher Teams) are BS 4+ for non-characters.
Suits are 4+ for non-characters.
Hammerheads, Skyrays, and Firesight Marksmen are the only 3+ thing I can really see.
Characters are 2+.

We're missing a gradient there. Moving the weighted suits(Crisis, Broadside, Riptide, Ghostkeel, and Stormsurge) to be BS3+ base allows for an army that does the shooting it is supposed to do.

I'd also argue that if not making them 3+BS base, make it so that the Markerlight table specifies that anything with keyword "Battlesuit" gains +2 to Hit rolls instead of +1.

pismakron wrote:
Crisis suits at 3+ BS would be a step in the wrong direction. They would just become even more of a glass cannon. They need a price cut and/or an extra wound.

I'd prefer a price cut myself. They're not awful right now, just really mediocre (and this would be helped a great deal with a better markerlight table), so if they were bumped down from 42 pts base to like 27, I'd consider them worthwhile, even good if the markerlight table got improved.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

So what?
-1 to Hit targets usually have a specific quantifier such as "-1 to Hit at 12" or more". I don't see an issue with Tau not being able to ignore that modifier at longer range. Once enough Markerlights get on target anyways("5 or more"), you've mitigated that to begin with thanks to the +1 to Hit. There are not many units that can stack -1 to Hit with something else. There's a few in Eldar but that is basically it for the moment.

If that's what you want, then just come out and say "I want to beat Eldar easier".
This amendment would just allow non-heavy units to hit more effectively as well, expanding the bonus in such a way that everyone can benefit, not just the few units that have heavy weapons and needed to move this turn. Velocity trackers are nice- but only suits can take support systems, and lots of useful units are not suits.

Velocity Trackers are nice and suits are meant to fill the role of heavy support units for the Tau.

Space marine fliers are what I've had trouble with mostly, actually. The idea of being able to hit them on a 3+ rather than a 4+ is really, really appealing- and kind of necessary, because fliers tend to hit like a speeding truck and are usually just as durable as one. I feel this is a necessary addition; we shouldn't have to rely on suits, which leads me to...

...we can't rely on suits because almost all of them are overcosted as HELL. Right now: Commanders are great, stealth suits, stormsurges and ghostkeels are okay for their cost, and broadsides, riptides, and XV8s are so god damned expensive and so lacklustre in their role that there's no reason to take them except for a thematic, for-fun battle where you don't care if you win or lose. And even if that was the case, I don't think suits should have to be the backbone of your army- I feel the tau should have more versatility than that.

Then you're playing the wrong army.

Tau have always been set-up like so:
Suits support the infantry. Infantry support the suits.
Tanks fill the gaps.

With that said, if you're having such trouble with Marine flyers wait until you fight Alaitoc flyers...which you're hitting on 6s thanks to the -1 from Fieldcraft applying to them.
If you're having trouble with Flyers, you literally cannot complain if you're refusing to take suits with Velocity Trackers. And hell, if you want to get fancy with it--you can even have them charge the stupid thing since they have Fly.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I dunno. I feel like as a design choice, tau suits have always been at a mediocre 4+ because the entire army is built around synergy and combat support; your suits fire lacklustre on their own but good with markerlights- which combined with the really poor state of current markerlights and the overcosting of suits means the suits stay on the shelf. If the GW design theme gave them 3+ they'd be worth their cost, but I feel like they won't because they'd think that goes against the point of Tau as an army.

"Really poor state of current markerlights"? ...lol?

If you're having trouble with Flyers, you literally cannot complain if you're refusing to take suits with Velocity Trackers. And hell, if you want to get fancy with it--you can even have them charge the stupid thing since they have Fly.

Suits are bad though. BAD. Right now the only two suits I'd consider useful against fliers would be Commanders and stormsurges- everything else is either overcosted or poorly suited for the role, or both. Right now I have no good answer to fliers except fusion commanders.

And yes, the current markerlight table is pretty lame. Two out of five markerlights are always useful, all others are situational. Markerlight 2 is so extremely situational that it's all but useless. We need easier access to +1, maybe even a +2 to hit with enough markers. Our army is about quality shooting, not quantity, and to get that quality you need a good, actually good, markerlight system.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

If you're having trouble with Flyers, you literally cannot complain if you're refusing to take suits with Velocity Trackers. And hell, if you want to get fancy with it--you can even have them charge the stupid thing since they have Fly.

Suits are bad though. BAD. Right now the only two suits I'd consider useful against fliers would be Commanders and stormsurges- everything else is either overcosted or poorly suited for the role, or both. Right now I have no good answer to fliers except fusion commanders.

Try a Crisis Suit with a Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Advanced Targeting System(an additional point of AP) and a Velocity Tracker.

And again, you can charge Flyers with your suits that have "Fly". Hell, Drones can be used to charge Flyers.

And yes, the current markerlight table is pretty lame. Two out of five markerlights are always useful, all others are situational. Markerlight 2 is so extremely situational that it's all but useless. We need easier access to +1, maybe even a +2 to hit with enough markers. Our army is about quality shooting, not quantity, and to get that quality you need a good, actually good, markerlight system.

The Tau army is about singling out targets and annihilating them with combined fire from multiple sources and taking advantage of Markerlights to do so.

Marker light table like.

1. Re-roll 1's to hit.
2. Re-roll 1+2's to hit.
3. Re-roll failed hits.
4. Re-roll 1's to wound
5. Re-roll 1+2's to wound
6. Re-roll Failed wounds.

Stackable.
Marker Lights do not benefit from other Marker Lights.

I'd keep the T'au at BS 4+ there is no reason for the T'au to be shooting at the same level as super-human space marines. BS 4+ is meant to be well trained human level, Which the T'au are not physically, but they plug the gaps with technology.

I'd agree with making the Larger suits BS 3+ and I'd go for a decrease in points for suits coupled with a return of JSJ.

 Hollow wrote:
Marker light table like.

1. Re-roll 1's to hit.
2. Re-roll 1+2's to hit.
3. Re-roll failed hits.
4. Re-roll 1's to wound
5. Re-roll 1+2's to wound
6. Re-roll Failed wounds.

Stackable.
Marker Lights do not benefit from other Marker Lights.

I'd keep the T'au at BS 4+ there is no reason for the T'au to be shooting at the same level as super-human space marines. BS 4+ is meant to be well trained human level, Which the T'au are not physically, but they plug the gaps with technology.

I'd agree with making the Larger suits BS 3+ and I'd go for a decrease in points for suits coupled with a return of JSJ.

Then why are Imperial Guard Veterans and Scions BS 3+? They're "well trained humans" shooting on the level of "super-human space marines."

Because it's a D6 System which only allows for so much granularity. I thought this would have been blindingly obvious, even to the most blunt of instruments, therefore I didn't feel like it needed pointing out. I was forgetting just how blunt some instruments are.

Kanluwen wrote:
Try a Crisis Suit with a Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Advanced Targeting System(an additional point of AP) and a Velocity Tracker.

And again, you can charge Flyers with your suits that have "Fly". Hell, Drones can be used to charge Flyers.

Can't take that many hardpoints on normal suits, only commanders can take 4.

Also what good does it charging flyers? They can fall back and shoot and Tau are not going to do enough damage in melee to matter.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

Then why are Imperial Guard Veterans and Scions BS 3+? They're "well trained humans" shooting on the level of "super-human space marines."

Because there's no way for Veterans and Scions to get to BS2+ with ease?

At least I think that's the reason.


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 FirePainter wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Try a Crisis Suit with a Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Advanced Targeting System(an additional point of AP) and a Velocity Tracker.

And again, you can charge Flyers with your suits that have "Fly". Hell, Drones can be used to charge Flyers.

Can't take that many hardpoints on normal suits, only commanders can take 4.

I'm aware but given that he was saying "Only Commanders are viable", I figured it would be self-evident that I was meaning a Commander. My bad.

Also what good does it charging flyers? They can fall back and shoot and Tau are not going to do enough damage in melee to matter.

It's damage you might not be doing otherwise...?

Fall Back happens during the Flyer's turn. Not when they're Charged.

Having been playing against a lot of -1 to hit and beyond, I find that my shooting army gets out shot by everyone else, because they have there stupid modifiers on a d6.

Often, against Eldar, my marker lights are shooting at 5 or sometimes 6 if its a hard target because they get that modifier so easily. That means unless you took a ungoldy amount of pathfinders for markerlights, you're working with maybe 1 or 2 hits on the table. Sweet, hitting on 5's, rerolling 1s. (often its hitting on 6)

\ I am shooting as well as Orcs. Its stupid, annoying, and not good for the game. My army does 2 and 1/2 phases, movement, shooting, and sometimes assault to tie something down. As of now, I accomplish movement really well. Most of my index cannot shoot, because BS4 turns into 5 or 6 against modifers.

I would honestly do to marker lights what they do with dark reapers, and make them always hit on a 4+ unless they move. THAT would help mitigate all these penalties that the meta revolves around

Try a Crisis Suit with a Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Advanced Targeting System(an additional point of AP) and a Velocity Tracker.

First off, suits can take 3 options maximum. Let's say I went for two guns and a tracker.
The plasma rifle: one of the only few decent options due to its low cost, it will still wound almost all vehicles on a 5+, meaning you'll score a couple wounds at most from a full squad firing.
The missile pod: ridiculously overcosted. Pointless to take.

The suits, as I said a million times before,are way overcosted. They're not an effective way of dealing with anything. The only real advantage is the ability to bring in a fuckton of gun drones. Everything else, commanders do better- for cost, there's virtually no reason not to bring more commanders.

And again, you can charge Flyers with your suits that have "Fly". Hell, Drones can be used to charge Flyers.

Barely anything we have hits on better than a 5+. Crisis suits charging would hit on a 5+, then wound on a 5+, then they'd have a 3+ save to go through. This suggestion is ridiculous.

The Tau army is about singling out targets and annihilating them with combined fire from multiple sources and taking advantage of Markerlights to do so.

...yes? That doesn't counter my point about the markerlight table being weak and underwhelming.


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I would honestly do to marker lights what they do with dark reapers, and make them always hit on a 4+ unless they move. THAT would help mitigate all these penalties that the meta revolves around

That's actually a useful and interesting suggestion.

Didn't you just start playing T'au? I'd be curious what your experience has been with Flamers on XV8's... Fusions, Burst Canons, Missile Pods etc...

Unless of course, your righteous fury over weapon options and point costs, is just parroted anger you've picked up online.

A Plasma rifle does wound most vehicles on a 5+. You shouldn't be firing plasma rifles at vehicles. Plasma Rifles are for tougher, heavily armoured infantry, not vehicles. Railguns, Seekers, Fusion are Anti Mech, not plasma rifles. Perhaps you will have more success if you utilise the various choices within the T'au arsenal for their intended roles.

 Hollow wrote:
Didn't you just start playing T'au? I'd be curious what your experience has been with Flamers on XV8's... Fusions, Burst Canons, Missile Pods etc...

Unless of course, your righteous fury over weapon options and point costs, is just parroted anger you've picked up online.

A Plasma rifle does wound most vehicles on a 5+. You shouldn't be firing plasma rifles at vehicles. Plasma Rifles are for tougher, heavily armoured infantry, not vehicles. Railguns, Seekers, Fusion are Anti Mech, not plasma rifles. Perhaps you will have more success if you utilise the various choices within the T'au arsenal for their intended roles.

You shouldn't be firing plasma rifles at anything because you shouldn't have any in your army. Plasma rifles are absolutely awful. What heavy infantry are you having issues with? The only thing that plasma is better at killing than an ion blaster is a terminator without a stormshield, and even then only if they're 12 away. How many of those are we seeing these days?

Ion blasters and fusion are really the only two weapon systems that are viable.

 Hollow wrote:
Didn't you just start playing T'au? I'd be curious what your experience has been with Flamers on XV8's... Fusions, Burst Canons, Missile Pods etc...

Unless of course, your righteous fury over weapon options and point costs, is just parroted anger you've picked up online.

A Plasma rifle does wound most vehicles on a 5+. You shouldn't be firing plasma rifles at vehicles. Plasma Rifles are for tougher, heavily armoured infantry, not vehicles. Railguns, Seekers, Fusion are Anti Mech, not plasma rifles. Perhaps you will have more success if you utilise the various choices within the T'au arsenal for their intended roles.

I've played the game for a year and a half, and I've played a match almost every weekend for several months now, often against competitively built lists, particularly in our monthly club tournaments.

I've recently taken to using XV8s with plasma rifles, which is the only thing I think they have that is both wortwhile and worth the cost. Even so, the problem remains: anything they can do, commanders can do better. Quick example:
4 XV8 with 2 plasma rifles each=256 pts, netting you a squad with 12 wounds and 16 4+ shots at rapid fire range. Without added markerlights they'll score around eight hits (or way less, because 4+ is really unreliable) and five to six wounds against infantry units. Compare this to two commanders with four plasma rifles each- twelve wounds, same toughness, and the same sixteen shots at rapid fire- only they hit on a 2+, and need only a single markerlight to perform optimally. They'll score around fourteen hits, and a good eight to nine wounds... for 240 pts, 16 pts LESS than a four man squad of XV8s. The only difference is the additional drones the XV8s have, and that it takes more time for multi-wound guns like lascannons to kill them, but it's not that hard to shoot either one down.

This is not "parroted". It's both a hard look at the rules and points cost, and confirming it in a dozen or so games myself. I've no problem with the weapons cost overall (except missile pods, which are way overcosted for what they do) but at present there is zero reason to get XV8s to do what commanders can do better, for better cost at that. The only reason I run suits at all right now is to bring drones that can protect my y'vahra.

Of course I wouldn't fire plasma rifles at vehicles, not unless there's anything else to shoot at. I know that, I was just baffled with the suggestion that other guy made.
I'm not really complaining about a lack of success either. My win rate is fairly decent, although I still believe we're underpowered compared to a number of other factions with codexes.

A quick note on anti armour: right now, I see no particular reason to opt for rail rifles/guns or missile pods. Broadsides are overcosted, and hammerheads are decent but overshadowed by other things, and missile pods... just no. Right now, a fusion commander is my go-to for making tanks go boom.


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You shouldn't be firing plasma rifles at anything because you shouldn't have any in your army. Plasma rifles are absolutely awful. What heavy infantry are you having issues with? The only thing that plasma is better at killing than an ion blaster is a terminator without a stormshield, and even then only if they're 12 away. How many of those are we seeing these days?

Ion blasters and fusion are really the only two weapon systems that are viable.

I use plasma because they're cheap. Right now the only real reason I'd bring XV8s is to add drones to protect my y'vahra; otherwise I see no point whatsoever.

Tanniith wrote:
You shouldn't be firing plasma rifles at anything because you shouldn't have any in your army.

I frequently take plasma in my armies. Then again I'm not a WAAC gamer who ONLY takes the most optimized equipment and literally doesn't even entertain the idea of taking anything other than the math-hammered best hit/wound percentage ratio.

I'm not saying that the XV8 doesn't need a point adjustment. I just think the suggestion there is only one or two options for them and everything else is trash is hyperbolic, internet, nonsense-speak which should be challenged.

 Hollow wrote:

Tanniith wrote:
You shouldn't be firing plasma rifles at anything because you shouldn't have any in your army.

I frequently take plasma in my armies. Then again I'm not a WAAC gamer who ONLY takes the most optimized equipment and literally doesn't even entertain the idea of taking anything other than the math-hammered best hit/wound percentage ratio.

I'm not saying that the XV8 doesn't need a point adjustment. I just think the suggestion there is only one or two options for them and everything else is trash is hyperbolic, internet, nonsense-speak which should be challenged.

Our plasma is bad. Our burst cannons are bad. The AFP is bad. Missile pods are good on commanders but bad on crisis. Im not even about talking the most point efficient thing, the uses for these weapons, other than the MP which genuinely does have a role, over the CIB or fusion blaster ate just so niche it doesn't make any sense to take them. They just don't fill a required role or are way too expensive.

If you want to take them that's fine, but understand that in 9/10 cases you'd be better served with an Ion Blaster or a Fusion Blaster.

Just return it to the 7th table. Don't have the stacking benefits, have them be spendable on what we could spend them on before.