Grey Knight librarian stormshield

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**BaconCatBug**

Sorry but Different Datasheets, with Different Names and Different Stats. They are clearly different datasheets. it doesn't matter what model you use to represent them, the datasheets are what matter.

**nekooni**

Audustum wrote:
nekooni wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?
Yes, it does. https://image.prntscr.com/image/LSDLg0c6RTe3ome1HMucnw.png Page 181

If yours doesn't it's a translation issue.

Where does it say it specifically represents the "Librarian"?

THAT'S what you're going to try and hang your hat on here? If we follow that logic, then you can't even trust datasheets with the same name because it doesn't explicitly say they are meant to represent the Index version of that named unit. After all, this is a convention from prior editions that we've adopted that's not actually in the RAW anywhere.

If we follow that logic, then it's still perfectly valid to take a Grey Knight Librarian with a storm shield because he DOESN'T exist in the Codex. You just buffed him by removing Rites of Banishment, but he still gets Grey Knight, Relics, Warlord traits, e.t.c. He also rolls off Librarius instead of Sanctic. You've basically made a super monster Librarian.

If we follow that logic, the TDA Librarian in Codex GK (which is named just 'Librarian') corresponds to Index 'Librarian' rather than 'Librarian in TDA' since their names are the same. So now they can have Jump Packs and Fly, plus it can still take combi-weapons.

But that's not the RAW. Look at the flow chart again. It says if your MODEL has Index wargear options. What datasheet did GK players use for their Librarians? They used Librarian in TDA for the Index. What datasheet do they use with the Codex? They use Codex Librarian. The flow chart literally does not require the same name. It asks only for what datasheet your MODEL used. Unless you want to show that every Index GK player was in error for the TDA entry for their Librarians before Codex release you're just adding rules that aren't there.

GW's emphasis is on models.

Do you have permission to use the SM Librarian for a Grey Knights Army? No. You only have permission to use the Lib in TDA, as per Index 1.
A unit in one army (eg Grey Knights) has no relationship to a unit in another army (eg Marines), therefore the GK "Librarian" is not a "SM Librarian" at all. Even though they share the same model, technically (there is no GK Librarian AFAIK).
If you have a datasheet in your army codex and the same datasheet name exists in your army index, they're connected.This is not the case here.

**Audustum**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but Different Datasheets, with Different Names and Different Stats. They are clearly different datasheets. it doesn't matter what model you use to represent them, the datasheets are what matter.

The flow chart disagrees with you. Look at the RAW. I don't like it either but it's GW's game and that's what they wrote. It's based on the model.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:
Audustum wrote:
nekooni wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?
Yes, it does. https://image.prntscr.com/image/LSDLg0c6RTe3ome1HMucnw.png Page 181

If yours doesn't it's a translation issue.

Where does it say it specifically represents the "Librarian"?

THAT'S what you're going to try and hang your hat on here? If we follow that logic, then you can't even trust datasheets with the same name because it doesn't explicitly say they are meant to represent the Index version of that named unit. After all, this is a convention from prior editions that we've adopted that's not actually in the RAW anywhere.

If we follow that logic, then it's still perfectly valid to take a Grey Knight Librarian with a storm shield because he DOESN'T exist in the Codex. You just buffed him by removing Rites of Banishment, but he still gets Grey Knight, Relics, Warlord traits, e.t.c. He also rolls off Librarius instead of Sanctic. You've basically made a super monster Librarian.

If we follow that logic, the TDA Librarian in Codex GK (which is named just 'Librarian') corresponds to Index 'Librarian' rather than 'Librarian in TDA' since their names are the same. So now they can have Jump Packs and Fly, plus it can still take combi-weapons.

But that's not the RAW. Look at the flow chart again. It says if your MODEL has Index wargear options. What datasheet did GK players use for their Librarians? They used Librarian in TDA for the Index. What datasheet do they use with the Codex? They use Codex Librarian. The flow chart literally does not require the same name. It asks only for what datasheet your MODEL used. Unless you want to show that every Index GK player was in error for the TDA entry for their Librarians before Codex release you're just adding rules that aren't there.

GW's emphasis is on models.

Do you have permission to use the SM Librarian for a Grey Knights Army? No. You only have permission to use the Lib in TDA, as per Index 1.
A unit in one army (eg Grey Knights) has no relationship to a unit in another army (eg Marines), therefore the GK "Librarian" is not a "SM Librarian" at all. Even though they share the same model, technically (there is no GK Librarian AFAIK).
If you have a datasheet in your army codex and the same datasheet name exists in your army index, they're connected.This is not the case here.

Why did I suspect that the main point would get lost for the trees?

Anyway, I'm saying your argument MAKES permission to use the SM Librarian. In fact, the GK player has to: they have the same name on their datasheet (literally, there's no difference). So they must be the same. Thus, the Index Librarian is an old version of the Codex Librarian. There's literally no RAW sentence that says "a unit in one army has no relationship to a unit in another army", especially in an Index where multiple armies are repeatedly referencing each other.

Your post does not address my actual RAW argument at all, however.

**BaconCatBug**

So if it's by model, then you can use a generic SM librarian in TDA as a GK librarian via the index just fine, with a storm shield. But you don't get to use the Librarian Datasheet from the GK codex.

**JohnnyHell**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but Different Datasheets, with Different Names and Different Stats. They are clearly different datasheets. it doesn't matter what model you use to represent them, the datasheets are what matter.

You've got this arse backwards.

Datasheets represent models, not the other way around.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconCatBug wrote:
So if it's by model, then you can use a generic SM librarian in TDA as a GK librarian via the index just fine, with a storm shield. But you don't get to use the Librarian Datasheet from the GK codex.

By that logic, my grapefruit has 200 Wounds and a pet Conscript. Or something.

**nekooni**

JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but Different Datasheets, with Different Names and Different Stats. They are clearly different datasheets. it doesn't matter what model you use to represent them, the datasheets are what matter.

You've got this arse backwards.

Datasheets represent models, not the other way around.

True. But just because your GK Librarian uses the same model as another unit does not mean it uses the same datasheet. When it comes to the rules, you use the datasheet, run through it's construction rules and then pick (a) model(s) to represent that unit.

Alternatively you go the other way around "this is a TDA Librarian model, so I use the TDA Librarian datasheet". If it's painted like a Grey Knight you might think "hey, why not play it as a GK Librarian?" which is fine, as long as the model has legal options.

You can look at a regular Marine and go "hm. I want to play him as a Salamanders Tactical Marine" and then notice "darn, he has a heavy flamer!" - just because that's a legal option for a Blood Angels Tactical Squad (from the Index) does not mean it becomes legal for your Salamanders Tactical Squad.

**JohnnyHell**

nekooni wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but Different Datasheets, with Different Names and Different Stats. They are clearly different datasheets. it doesn't matter what model you use to represent them, the datasheets are what matter.

You've got this arse backwards.

Datasheets represent models, not the other way around.

True. But just because your GK Librarian uses the same model as another unit does not mean it uses the same datasheet.

I was mostly pointing out a core issue with BCB's logic. Lots of things share models but have different Datasheets based on what army they're in. ;-)

**nekooni**

JohnnyHell wrote:
nekooni wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry but Different Datasheets, with Different Names and Different Stats. They are clearly different datasheets. it doesn't matter what model you use to represent them, the datasheets are what matter.

You've got this arse backwards.

Datasheets represent models, not the other way around.

True. But just because your GK Librarian uses the same model as another unit does not mean it uses the same datasheet.

I was mostly pointing out a core issue with BCB's logic. Lots of things share models but have different Datasheets based on what army they're in. ;-)

Yes, and that's exactly the issue here - a GK "Librarian" might share a model with a GK "Librarian in Terminator Armour", but it isn't the same unit and cannot have a stormshield just because a Lib in TDA can.

You can look at a regular Marine and go "hm. I want to play him as a Salamanders Tactical Marine" and then notice "darn, he has a heavy flamer!" - just because that's a legal option for a Blood Angels Tactical Squad (from the Index) does not mean it becomes legal for your Salamanders Tactical Squad. That's why the SM Librarian does not give the GK Librarian access to a storm shield (or anything else, e.g. Jump Packs).

And since the GK Libarian also isn't the same unit as the GK Librarian in TDA, that one also doesn't give access to a storm shield to the GK Librarian.

**JohnnyHell**

Except we were dealing with a stopgap Index that doubled up what unit was used for what, muddying waters and removing the lawyer-precision some are claiming is at play here. It's not clear-cut.

**nekooni**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Except we were dealing with a stopgap Index that doubled up what unit was used for what, muddying waters and removing the lawyer-precision some are claiming is at play here. It's not clear-cut.

But how is this unclear?

Either you play an Index Librarian in TDA as your GK Psyker, and have access to a storm shield, or you use the Codex Librarian as your GK Psyker, have a better statline but no storm shield. It's easy if you don't want to force the storm shield.
Take my example - there's no difference model-wise when it comes to a Tactical Marine, but you're still not allowed to take a Heavy Flamer if it's not a Blood Angel.

**Medicinal Carrots**

The Grey Knights faction has access to a unit called "Librarian". A datasheet for that unit only exists in the codex, so you use the codex for all stats, wargear, and any other unit specific rules for that unit, as well as all point values. A Grey Knights "Librarian" does not have access to a storm shield, and has the Daemon Hunters and Rites of Banishment rules.

The Grey Knights faction has access to a unit called "Librarian in Terminator Armour". A datasheet for that unit only exists in the index, so you use the index for all stats, wargear, and other unit specific rules for that unit. You use the index point value for the model in the unit and for wargear that does not have points listed in the codex You use the codex point values for all wargear that has points listed in the codex. A Grey Knights "Librarian in Terminator Armour" has the option to take a storm shield, and does not have the Daemon Hunters and Rites of Banishment rules.

They are two differently named and entirely separate datasheets representing units that, ruleswise, have no bearing on each other. Just like how a "Librarian" and "Librarian on Bike" are different units for other marine flavors. You can take either one, both, or neither, you just can't mix rules or options between the two. Based on the flowchart, this is very clear cut as far as the rules go.

**Pellegrino**

Ok I got all confused now lol. J/K.

I think the safest way to bring an SM librarian with a GK battle-forged army is to get 2 battalion.

So, 1 battalion of GK and 1 battalion of SM with SM librarian in it.

Again, I think GW should make an army builder so we don't have this kind of debate in the future.

**Mr. Shine**

Even if we were to consider the Librarian in Terminator Armour datasheet to be the same as the codex Librarian datasheet, you still can't get a Storm Shield.

The flowchart allows us to substitute the index wargear options and otherwise use the codex datasheet. The index wargear options require you to exchange a storm bolter for the storm shield, which the codex Librarian does not have. The codex Librarian can only get a storm bolter by taking one from its codex wargear options, which you're not using when using the index wargear options.

**Medicinal Carrots**

You're not substituting the Index wargear in this case. You are answering "No" to the first question on the flowchart, since the "Librarian in Terminator Armour" does not exist in the codex, and using the Index datasheet wholly.

**Mr. Shine**

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
You're not substituting the Index wargear in this case. You are answering "No" to the first question on the flowchart, since the "Librarian in Terminator Armour" does not exist in the codex, and using the Index datasheet wholly.

That would be why I started my post with with, "Even if we were to consider the Librarian in Terminator Armour datasheet to be the same as the codex Librarian datasheet,"

**Audustum**

Mr. Shine wrote:
Even if we were to consider the Librarian in Terminator Armour datasheet to be the same as the codex Librarian datasheet, you still can't get a Storm Shield.

The flowchart allows us to substitute the index wargear options and otherwise use the codex datasheet. The index wargear options require you to exchange a storm bolter for the storm shield, which the codex Librarian does not have. The codex Librarian can only get a storm bolter by taking one from its codex wargear options, which you're not using when using the index wargear options.

I was gonna write a big reply about my original points but this is a salient one you raise I had overlooked. This neatly solves the issue from a RAW perspective.