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I was told by a friend that my army typically has trouble vs armor (I play GK). He suggested that I make a vanguard detachment with a SM Capt and Lt with 3 Preds armed with twin Lascannons and 2 Lascannon sponsons. Point wise this comes out to 731 pts.

I prefer mono codex builds and was looking at a flying squadron of 3 Storm Talons. Armed with twin AC and 2 Lascannons the 3 of them come in at 612 points. I'm not counting my HQ points since I can just take an HQ from my normal detachment.

By my math a stationary Pred vs a LR does 4.94 wounds per round. A moving pred does 3.26. A storm talon does 4.57 wounds per round. Now survivability-wise Twin AC vs pred does 1.31 wounds per 12 shots at BS3, vs a Talon it does 1.5 wounds. 12 Plasma shots (S7) at BS 3 vs a pred does 0.63 wounds per round and it's the exact same number vs the Talon. Head to head a moving pred does 3.26 wounds a stationary pred does 4.94 wounds to a Talon and a Talon does 4.57 wounds to a pred. Against S8 or higher weapons the Talon actually takes less damage than the pred.

So it seems that the talon can be a good substitute for the preds and allows me to maintain chapter purity.

Is my math wrong? Am I missing any major tactical advantages/disadvantages? I'm not a super competitive player but I do like to have as good a chance of winning as possible.

Thoughts/constructive criticism please.

Stationary Pred hits on 3s, wounds on 3s, 6+ save, and d6 damage.

4 shots is 8/3 hits is 16/9 wounds is 80/54 unsaved is 280/54 damage, or 5.19.

Moving Pred hits on 4s, wounds on 3s, 6+ save, and d6 damage.

4 shots is 2 hits is 4/3 wounds is 20/18 unsaved is 70/18 damage, or 3.89.

A Stormtalon hits on 3s (Power Of The Machine Spirit, right?), wounds on 5s (AC) or 3s (Las), with a 4+/6+ save, and is 1/d6 damage.

12 shots is 8 hits is 8/3 wounds is 8/6 unsaved is 8/6 damage, or 1.33.
2 shots is 4/3 hits is 8/9 wounds is 40/54 unsaved is 140/54 damage, or 2.59.
Total damage is 3.92.

I don't know where you got your math from, but it's off.

Edit: I assume by LR you mean Leman Russ.

A zooming Stormtalon hits targets without FLY on 3, otherwise on 4.
It doesn't have PotMS.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
A zooming Stormtalon hits targets without FLY on 3, otherwise on 4.
A hovering Stormtalon hits targets without FLY on 2, otherwise on 3.
It doesn't have PotMS.

OH! I forgot Strafing Run!

Redoing math, assuming Hovering, against a Leman Russ.

12 shots is 10 hits is 10/3 wounds is 10/6 unsaved is 10/6 damage, or 1.67.
2 shots is 10/6 hits is 20/18 wounds is 100/108 unsaved is 350/108 damage, or 3.24.
Total damage is 4.91.

Edit: Still worse than a Predator. But admittedly, has a lot more anti-horde power, so might be the better choice.

Actually I meant LR as Land Raider. Thanks for the math vs a Russ (we don't have many IG players here so I tend to think vs me).

Okay, more math.

Pred not moving:

4 shots, 8/3 hits, 16/9 wounds, 32/27 unsaved, 112/27 damage, or 4.15.

Storm Talon hovering:

12 shots, 10 hits, 10/3 wounds, 10/9 unsaved, 10/9 damage or 1.11.
2 shots, 10/6 hits, 20/18 wounds, 40/54 unsaved, 140/54 damage or 2.59.
3.7 total damage.

Predator wins.

Edit: This is without rerolls, mind you-the Captain and the Lieutenant will SIGNIFICANTLY increase damage dealt for Preds.

Yeah, I didn't want to involve rerolls since the models that grant them may or may not be in range. Otherwise you have to factor in Draigo who would grant rerolls not just for 1's but any to hit roll that misses.

But I do appreciate your help.

The other thing to consider is that you don't need any kind of screening units for flyers, and they can reliably move all over the board, whereas the predators are stationary.

Grey Knights are an alpha army that drops in all over.

You might be better served with flyers, by virtue of a mono-GK list.

It's a way to get assault cannons, and with razorback price hike, it might be a smart move.

Id roll with the Storm Talons myself, its really cool, you can paint them Grey Knightish to complement your colors, it doesn't matter since chapter tactics are mostly meaningless on them! (well maybe except Iron Hands strat) Plus the amount of medium range shots mean you can equally hurt large and small groups as well as take on heavy stuff like tanks and knights.

Plus storm talons are great at character assassination, just zip over on top of them and blast that pesky company commander or plague lord into oblivion.

I always regretted gettinga Storm Talon before a Pred. Not that one is better than the other. The Pred is just a lot more iconic.

Bharring wrote:
I always regretted gettinga Storm Talon before a Pred. Not that one is better than the other. The Pred is just a lot more iconic.

For space marines, yet, but Grey Knights are a rapid insertion army, they don't use much in the way of heavy armor outside of Land Raiders, so something like Storm Talons escorting their gunships and giving air support sounds pretty cool.



edit, I also realized that Storm Talons are in the new GK codex, so its mono build all around!

Yes, the fact that they can have <Chapter Grey Knight> is very nice since it makes the flyer detachment more affordable then me having to make a vanguard detachment and buy HQ(s) as well.
Also i like the mobility factor a lot, in that, if preds move they have a net penalty to hit but as long as the target is not a flyer the Talon has no net penalty.
I just wanted opinions on whether I am penalizing myself by not going with predators over the Talons.

I own 4 talons. Rarely do I field all 4 anymore (Raptor Wing Formation was so awesome) but I love the model and it has always made a difference in games. I also don't own many tank models.... So I say go for the flyer! Since they don't score, most people choose to ignore them. Twin AC and either standard heavy bolters or the typhoons are my go to load out. It's easy enough to magnetize the weapons to have every load out.

My load out is Twin AC + 2 Lascannons.

2 Stormraven Gunships beat either two (716 Pts)

2.31 wounds from Multi-Melta
1.3068 wounds from Stormstrike Missile Launcher
2.012472 wounds from Lascannon

Totaling 5.63 (on a Land Raider)

I'm also not counting 2 Hurricane Bolters here, which you can use to soften up their troops


so that's 5.63*2=11.26 vs 3.7 * 3 = 11.1 by Storm Talon and 4.15*3=12.45


Predator Wins very slightly in terms of damage vs vhicles, but Stormraven has the added bonus of two Hurricane Bolters as well as it is a flyer and has power of the machine spirit

 Dovis wrote:
2 Stormraven Gunships beat either two (716 Pts)

2.31 wounds from Multi-Melta
1.3068 wounds from Stormstrike Missile Launcher
2.012472 wounds from Lascannon

Totaling 5.63 (on a Land Raider)

I'm also not counting 2 Hurricane Bolters here, which you can use to soften up their troops


so that's 5.63*2=11.26 vs 3.7 * 3 = 11.1 by Storm Talon and 4.15*3=12.45


Predator Wins very slightly in terms of damage vs vhicles, but Stormraven has the added bonus of two Hurricane Bolters as well as it is a flyer and has power of the machine spirit

Also can transport a unit and Dreadnought too!

This would be my recommendation as well. -1 to hit when flying makes them more durable than preds too, being able to fly over screens and catching careless characters in the open is neat too