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There are a few models that are generally agreed to be incorrectly priced, I was wondering what people thought a fair price was for them? Aim to keep them relevant at tournaments, but not broken. I've added some other units because I'm curious what people think of their points level as well.

1) Dark Reapers
2) IG Conscripts
3) Pyrovore
4) Dark Eldar Warriors
5) Khorne Bezerkers
6) Tau Firewarrior
7) Necron Warrior
8) Genestealers
9) Primaris Intercessors
10) Guilliman
11) Magnus
12) Mortarion
13) *Late Addition* Lictor

Reapers:
The price of a ML Dev each.
Also, the Exarch should cost +10pts.

Don't fear the Reaper, man.

Are Khorne Bezerkers considered broken?

I'd argue the reason people generally don't like them has to do more with the use of Alpha Legion tactics in combination with Bezerkers. Bezerkers by themselves aren't so bad.

Bharring wrote:
Reapers:
The price of a ML Dev each.
Also, the Exarch should cost +10pts.

Why do you think that? They are less tough than a missile dev, aren't they? What makes the same cost fair?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skolirvarden wrote:
Are Khorne Bezerkers considered broken?

I'd argue the reason people generally don't like them has to do more with the use of Alpha Legion tactics in combination with Bezerkers. Bezerkers by themselves aren't so bad.

Totally true, so do you think they are fine at their current points cost, given that they can be taken in Alpha Legion? Should the extra rules available to them be taken into account at all in their cost?

The issue with repointing a lot of these is it depends on the context you find them in.

E.G. Guilliman is amazing with ultramarines and should cost 400 or more points.

But

Guilliman is noticeably less awesome with Cadian Imperial Guard, and should cost about what he costs now, I'd say.

That's the problem with Aura Buffs in general - if you price them to assume the players are maximizing their potential, you've essentially priced them out of any other possibility, but if you price them based on anything other than their max potential, you'll be giving them too much efficiency when competitive players seek to max their lists.

Because:
-2xS5 ap-2 D:2 shots is much much better than d6xS4Ap0 D:1.
-Always hits on 3s at range
-"free" exarch (maybe I double-dipped)

Compared to:
-S/T:4
-Signum
-Combat Squadding
-Cherubim

I think they're about equal. Perhaps reapers cheaper by a point or three, but not substantially.

Drager wrote:
There are a few models that are generally agreed to be incorrectly priced, I was wondering what people thought a fair price was for them? Aim to keep them relevant at tournaments, but not broken. I've added some other units because I'm curious what people think of their points level as well.

1) Dark Reapers
2) IG Conscripts
3) Pyrovore
4) Dark Eldar Warriors
5) Khorne Bezerkers
6) Tau Firewarrior
7) Necron Warrior
8) Genestealers
9) Primaris Intercessors
10) Guilliman
11) Magnus
12) Mortarion

1) 32 pts
2) 3 pts, 4 if Infantry squads get bumped to 5 (as they should)
3) 30 pts
4) They're fine
5) They're fine
6) They're fine
7) They're fine
8) They're fine
9) 1 point too cheap maybe, they're much more durable than Tactical marines against D1 weapons for only 5 points more (1/3 price)
10) 465 pts
11) 510 pts
12) 550 pts

KurtAngle2 wrote:

1) 32 pts
2) 3 pts, 4 if Infantry squads get bumped to 5 (as they should)
3) 30 pts
4) They're fine
5) They're fine
6) They're fine
7) They're fine
8) They're fine
9) 1 point too cheap maybe, they're much more durable than Tactical marines against D1 weapons for only 5 points more (1/3 price)
10) 465 pts
11) 510 pts
12) 550 pts

You really think Necron Warriors, Dark Eldar Warriors and Tau Firewarriors are all priced reasonably for tournament relevance?

Drager wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

1) 32 pts
2) 3 pts, 4 if Infantry squads get bumped to 5 (as they should)
3) 30 pts
4) They're fine
5) They're fine
6) They're fine
7) They're fine
8) They're fine
9) 1 point too cheap maybe, they're much more durable than Tactical marines against D1 weapons for only 5 points more (1/3 price)
10) 465 pts
11) 510 pts
12) 550 pts

You really think Necron Warriors, Dark Eldar Warriors and Tau Firewarriors are all priced reasonably for tournament relevance?

Necron warriors are already better than Space Marines since -1 AP is much more worthy than +1 sv
Dark Eldars suffer from the poison rule (which is Detrimental against T3/Vehicle spam);7 pts a piece is fine otherwise (Eldar Guardians are in a much worse situation)
Tau Firewarriors are above average in terms of troops, if you compare them to a trash level infantry like Hormagaunts for 3 mere points you get much more power

Drager wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skolirvarden wrote:
Are Khorne Bezerkers considered broken?

I'd argue the reason people generally don't like them has to do more with the use of Alpha Legion tactics in combination with Bezerkers. Bezerkers by themselves aren't so bad.

Totally true, so do you think they are fine at their current points cost, given that they can be taken in Alpha Legion? Should the extra rules available to them be taken into account at all in their cost?

Yes, they're fine at their current cost.

Sure, a lot of people take them in Alpha Legion, but repricing just because it's possible for one Legion to have a very powerful interaction makes no sense - it's not a rule built into the unit, there are all the other Legions who can take Bezerkers which don't have the same possibility, where Bezerkers would cost more points for no benefit.

You'd have to put virtually all troops in the game on the list if you want to bring them up to tourny levels (CWE, Chaos Soup, AM, and maybe SM). Not many troops in the game compare reasonably against a Guardsman as pointed. Or pre-CA Razorbacks and Stormravens.

You'll have to pick a balance point.

Now, if you look at these, compared to eachother:
Dark Eldar Kalabite
Khorne Bezerkers
Tau Firewarrior (Rifle)
Necron Warrior
Genestealers
Guardian Defenders
Scouts (bolters)
Rangers (Non-Alaitoc)
Dire Avengers
Tac Marines
CSM Marines

Most of those compare against eachother reasonably, if not perfecetly. So wouldn't that be a better starting balance point than the current bleeding-edge tourny winning units?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems like Berserkers need a rules change, not a price change.

skolirvarden wrote:

Drager wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skolirvarden wrote:
Are Khorne Bezerkers considered broken?

I'd argue the reason people generally don't like them has to do more with the use of Alpha Legion tactics in combination with Bezerkers. Bezerkers by themselves aren't so bad.

Totally true, so do you think they are fine at their current points cost, given that they can be taken in Alpha Legion? Should the extra rules available to them be taken into account at all in their cost?

Yes, they're fine at their current cost.

Sure, a lot of people take them in Alpha Legion, but repricing just because it's possible for one Legion to have a very powerful interaction makes no sense - it's not a rule built into the unit, there are all the other Legions who can take Bezerkers which don't have the same possibility, where Bezerkers would cost more points for no benefit.

Again my question from earlier in the thread:

Do we balance based on maximized efficiency or on general utility?

Drager wrote:
There are a few models that are generally agreed to be incorrectly priced, I was wondering what people thought a fair price was for them? Aim to keep them relevant at tournaments, but not broken. I've added some other units because I'm curious what people think of their points level as well.

1) Dark Reapers
2) IG Conscripts
3) Pyrovore
4) Dark Eldar Warriors
5) Khorne Bezerkers
6) Tau Firewarrior
7) Necron Warrior
8) Genestealers
9) Primaris Intercessors
10) Guilliman
11) Magnus
12) Mortarion
13) *Late Addition* Lictor

I'm just going to comment on the ones I have experience with:

2) I think 3pts is fair for their current stats. Maybe 4 if they get rid of the other nerfs.

4) Maybe 6pts? Though, I think their gear is an issue here. Blaster could do with either going down 5pts or else going up to d6 damage. The Blast Pistol could do with both a 5pt price drop and also an increase in range (currently it's objectively worse than an Inferno Pistol but costs twice as much). Also, the Shredder remains abysmal and the Splinter Cannon has been nerfed beyond all reason.

7) These are tricky. They definitely don't need an increase (they look better than Marines on paper, but on the field they're slow, unwieldy and struggle to contribute anything meaningful). I think I'd have to see what the codex brings before suggesting a change in price.

I think a big issue is that the current Reanimation Protocols, whilst fluffy, rarely make for a fun game. Usually, either the enemy can't kill enough to stop them reanimating again each turn (leading to squads that never die), or else they kill the squad outright (making the rule a complete waste).

10) I think what Girlyman needs is to either gain a few extra wounds (so that you can't have something the size of a truck hiding behind Conscripts) or else have his buffs take a hit (e.g. just give him the 'reroll 1s to-hit and to-wound, but remove the 'reroll all failed hits and wounds for Ultramarines').

1) Dark Reapers - 42 points (should pay extra for the fact each member has the weapon / their bonus to hit / ability to move and shoot with no penalty / garenteed flat 2 and 3 damage weapons.
2) IG Conscripts - 4 (no unit with flat 3 stats should cost less than 4 points)
3) Pyrovore - 30
4) Dark Eldar Warriors - 7 points (their gun is bad - should cost less)
5) Khorne Bezerkers - 20 points
6) Tau Firewarrior - 9 points (gun is good - should cost more)
7) Necron Warrior - 13 points (should be fearless)
8) Genestealers - 15
9) Primaris Intercessors - 16 (to go along with a space marine drop to 11 points)
10) Guilliman - 400
11) Magnus - 560
12) Mortarion - 540
13) *Late Addition* Lictor 30 - deathleaper - 70

by "Flat 3 stats" do you mean toughness and strength?

Because I think their stats are 5+ 5+ 3 3 1 1 5+...

or translated to 7th edition:

2 2 3 3 1 1 5+

which is as many 2's as 3's...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
by "Flat 3 stats" do you mean toughness and strength?

Because I think their stats are 5+ 5+ 3 3 1 1 5+...

or translated to 7th edition:

2 2 3 3 1 1 5+

which is as many 2's as 3's...

Yeah I just mean 3 core stats. Str/Toughness.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The issue with repointing a lot of these is it depends on the context you find them in.

E.G. Guilliman is amazing with ultramarines and should cost 400 or more points.

But

Guilliman is noticeably less awesome with Cadian Imperial Guard, and should cost about what he costs now, I'd say.

That's the problem with Aura Buffs in general - if you price them to assume the players are maximizing their potential, you've essentially priced them out of any other possibility, but if you price them based on anything other than their max potential, you'll be giving them too much efficiency when competitive players seek to max their lists.

100% this, Chapter(or equivalent) for balance purpose should be purchasable upgrades for units, because they are not balanced against one another, and having them for free makes balancing units difficult. Berserkers that don't get infiltrate are worse than those that do, tactical marines with -1 to hit are better than those that ignore cover. Assigning points to a <chapter> would make it possible to balance these things.

Aura buffs are much the same, RG + 100 bolt pistol scouts =/= RG + 6 Assault cannon RBs. Which means for competitive balance RG becomes useless in all but the most optimized lists because he needs to be costed to account for his best benefit.

Breng77 wrote:
because he needs to be costed to account for his best benefit.

If you cost him for the best benefit there will be no list other than that one, because it would be the only worth worth taking him in.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
because he needs to be costed to account for his best benefit.

If you cost him for the best benefit there will be no list other than that one, because it would be the only worth worth taking him in.

Right, which is I think why being charged for the "chapter" rule might make sense, in the context of his post.

I.E. if an army wants to be more efficient, it has to pay the points to be Ultramarines and therefore meet Guilliman's keyword, instead of just being Ultramarines becaues "it is so!"

Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
because he needs to be costed to account for his best benefit.

If you cost him for the best benefit there will be no list other than that one, because it would be the only worth worth taking him in.

Right but if you don't his best benefit becomes too good. That is the problem with all aura buff characters from a balance standpoint, how good they are largely depends on what they are buffing.

Kinda like Marks from 6e/7e CSM?

I like the idea of paying for it.

Dakkafexes are too cheap. The heavy venom cannon in particular is way too cheap.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
because he needs to be costed to account for his best benefit.

If you cost him for the best benefit there will be no list other than that one, because it would be the only worth worth taking him in.

Right, which is I think why being charged for the "chapter" rule might make sense, in the context of his post.

I.E. if an army wants to be more efficient, it has to pay the points to be Ultramarines and therefore meet Guilliman's keyword, instead of just being Ultramarines becaues "it is so!"

Yup though aura buffs in this case are still an issue, because if Ultramarines are costed based on the fact that they might take RG than they are always overcosted if they do not.

In the end I think aura buffs in general are poor tools if you want balance, I would rather see these types of characters have an "orders" like mechanic that can only effect a certain number of units. It is much easier to balance a commander that gives a single unit re-rolls to hit, than all units within a certain distance.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
because he needs to be costed to account for his best benefit.

If you cost him for the best benefit there will be no list other than that one, because it would be the only worth worth taking him in.

And if you price him for his weaker benefit, then he becomes undercosed in an Ultramarine army.

Two different prices for Bobby G. One price for a list with UM, and another price for everyone else. It's easier to price a captain, because the aura doesn't change.

I think I agree with the core point that auras are really hard to balance.

Martel732 wrote:
Two different prices for Bobby G. One price for a list with UM, and another price for everyone else.

How would you determine if it was an UM list?

Would it just have to include any UM unit other than Girlyman? Or would a certain % of points need to be spend on UM units?

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Two different prices for Bobby G. One price for a list with UM, and another price for everyone else.

How would you determine if it was an UM list?

Would it just have to include any UM unit other than Girlyman? Or would a certain % of points need to be spend on UM units?

No, any UM unit triggers it. So mixed lists get boned, but it's the only way to do it. So lists with no UM pay one price and lists with any UM at all pay another. Crude, but better than what we have now.

Even buffing a single unit in a certain range is hard to balance, e.g. the Trojan. It gives a single "Regiment" vehicle within 6" re-rolls to hit.

It's 98 points.

Generally, it is considered overcosted when used with a Sentinel, Hellhound, other Trojans, Atlases, etc. Even other Leman Russes generally never see the benefit, since 100 points is a lot to give them re-rolls to hit.

However, on a Baneblade or its ilk, it's pretty good.