“Just have fun! Stop trying to break the game!”

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**Blacksails**

Danny slag wrote:
The idea that not being a huge douche is "casual" is a straw man made by insecure cheesers trying to make excuses for themselves. Most people don't play cheese, and they play just as smart and just as tactful.

For example in ad Mech the derby mcderpersons will declaring that anything other than cawl+robots and allied IG and an outrider of stymies dragons, anything other than that exact list is "garbage, non viable, useless." But in reality there are several ways to make ad Mech lists that can and do play well and win games.

The real difference is that WAAC cheese players want to win at the list building step and not have to actually play well. They don't want to risk having to rely on tactics. Where as the supposed "casual" player wants to play a game and try to win with tactics.

WAAC players are the kid everyone knew growing up who would cheat at monopoly, and none of the other kids could understand why, it's just a game and that takes all the fun out of playing it. But that kid couldn't understand how everyone else could have fun playing the game if they didn't win. That kid grew up to be every tournament player in 40k.

So, you complain about strawmen and people being douches, then make an argument of nothing but strawmen laced heavily with douche.

I'm sure the irony was not lost on you.

**alleus**

I play for fun. Winning is fun, and I don't think anyone enjoys losing. I don't mind my opponent bringing the most powerful toys he/she can bring, because I will most likely do the same. What I do mind however is the mentality and attitude during the game.

If you bring all the most powerful things, and you expect me to do the same, then you don't get to complain that what I brought was too powerful, and you don't get to be grumpy if you loose. Being friendly and a good sport while playing basically overrides any list building for me. Bring whatever you want, I'll bring whatever I want, and we'll have a fun and friendly game.

EDIT: Also, if a single unit (Guilliman or other LoWs for example) are bringing you down, just tell your opponent that maybe LoWs would be too much for the next game, and you come to an agreement. Complaining and crying online or in your gaming group won't solve anything. Proper discussion and open-ness with your opponents will however.

**Jidmah**

Marmatag wrote:
In a casual setting, if you set up your minis, and you know you're going to win before dice are rolled, that's a problem. Beer and pretzels games aren't about winning and losing, it's about playing your stuff and having a good time. I like to throw in ad-hoc game balance if the battle is getting one sided in my favor, like "Wow, that was a bad roll. Let's just play it as though you made that charge with a 9."

Ironically, while MtG caters much more to high levels of competitive play, anybody who bought a pre-constructed EDH deck will be able to win games from time to time in casual games. If you sunk your $400 entry fee for 40k into the wrong models, you're simply out of luck and need to buy another army.

**AaronWilson**

Whenever you turn 40k into anything more then a tool to spend quality time with friends, kick back and roll some dice it all goes wrong.

**Peregrine**

AaronWilson wrote:
Whenever you turn 40k into anything more then a tool to spend quality time with friends, kick back and roll some dice it all goes wrong.

IOW, 40k is a terrible game and GW should be embarrassed to publish it.

**AaronWilson**

Peregrine wrote:
AaronWilson wrote:
Whenever you turn 40k into anything more then a tool to spend quality time with friends, kick back and roll some dice it all goes wrong.

IOW, 40k is a terrible game and GW should be embarrassed to publish it.

Sure

I'm not too fussed about arguing about the semantics of a fantasy game online, It sounds pretty dull and a huge waste of time.

All i know is when I spend a couple of hours rolling some dice on a nice table, with cool models and good friends we have a laugh and it's time well spent, that's enough for me.

**Wayniac**

alleus wrote:
EDIT: Also, if a single unit (Guilliman or other LoWs for example) are bringing you down, just tell your opponent that maybe LoWs would be too much for the next game, and you come to an agreement. Complaining and crying online or in your gaming group won't solve anything. Proper discussion and open-ness with your opponents will however.

Absolutely agree, but the issue is when you have that one person that ONLY has fun when they play LoWs, so telling them you don't find them fun and asking if they wouldn't bring them is akin to kicking them in the groin and spitting on them; you are telling them they can't have fun, because they can only have fun one specific way. Then the arguments happen. 40k seems to bring out more of this crowd that only have fun if they're doing 100% what they want, and anything less than 100% means they can't enjoy the game whatsoever so you should just deal with it.

**auticus**

40k seems to bring out more of this crowd that only have fun if they're doing 100% what they want, and anything less than 100% means they can't enjoy the game whatsoever so you should just deal with it.

Not just 40k. Pretty much any game, and this isn't recent either. This was an issue back in D&D in the late 80s on up. If you have a shallow player pool this becomes more of an issue since you don't have many people to play against. If you have a lot of people to play against, this becomes less a thing as people find others of like mind.

**Racerguy180**

AaronWilson wrote:

All i know is when I spend a couple of hours rolling some dice on a nice table, with cool models and good friends we have a laugh and it's time well spent, that's enough for me.

This is exactly what I love about 40k and what I think the guys who design and develop the game want & do.

I have no problem with tournament or competitive players and will play against them. just when i want to play its always narrative or something along those lines.

**Marmatag**

I really do think the problem arises when you have all or nothing kinds of wins and losses. A lot of these games of 8th edition can become very lopsided once things start dying.

The progressive ITC scoring missions - a tournament format - are actually great for casual play, too. Far better than what you'd get in the BRB or open war cards.

**Crimson Devil**

Peregrine wrote:
AaronWilson wrote:
Whenever you turn 40k into anything more then a tool to spend quality time with friends, kick back and roll some dice it all goes wrong.

IOW, 40k is a terrible game and GW should be embarrassed to publish it.

And how much shame should you feel for wasting so much time on it?

I think it would be hard to find anyone on this forum that have spent as much or more time and words on the subject of 40k than you have. Was it worth it?