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So I just got my hands on the newest AM codex and throwing together a Tempestus Scion army list.

But I'm confused about the point values for plasma guns.

See, in the point system value table, it says a plasma gun is 7 points for "models with a Ballistic Skill of 4+."

However, a plasma gun for "other models" is 13 points a pop!

So my direct question:

For a squad of Tempestus Scions kitted with plasma guns, are the plasma guns 7 points each or 13, given their BS 3+? What would the point cost be for a plasma gun for regular Guardsmen (who have a BS 4+)

Why would you think they are 7 when the points rules literally say it's only 7 for BS4+ models and Scions do not have BS4+?

You seem to be overthinking this quite a bit. It's a simple question. Does the model buying the plasma gun have on their datasheet a BS characteristic of 4+? If so, it costs 7 points. In ALL other cases, no matter what the BS is, it's 12 points. The point is to charge more for models that can hit more often with the Plasma and charge less for models who hit less with them.

Or to put it more crudly, the Elite Scions pay more, the Grunt Guardsmen pay less.

Honestly it's because I'm not used to how stats are listed now (In my head I see "BS4+" meaning BS4 or worse). It's cool that the stats are more direct but I'm still used to how they used to be. That and it's bizarre to me that that's how they would tweak the point cost of plasma guns (Though I get it, the models that hit more often with it pay more for balance, even though it's the same piece of hardware. And the models already cost more).

Thanks for clarifying, my list is definitely going to need a little tweaking lol glad I got my plasma guns on a sale because I definitely shouldn't fully kit my squads with them.

The real reason is that Plasma Guns for Space Marines (A BS3+ Army) cost 13 points.

Logically this extrapolates as ALL Plasma Guns should cost 13 points, which makes sense, until you realise that those plasma guns are going to be far less effective on a BS4+ model for the same points cost. The points cost of a Plasma Gun for Marines is based on the assumption that the model firing it is going to need a 3+ to hit. Obviously you can't lower the cost of a Base Guardsman to compensate, so you need to lower the cost of the actual gun. Scions have a very high amount of access to Plasma Guns as well as hitting the same as Marines, so it makes sense the gun should cost the same for them.

Ahhh, I see.

And while I'm asking ID10T questions on points, I've got just one more: Am I correct in that a Taurox Prime is 65 points and comes equipped with a Taurox battle cannon and two hot-shot volley guns? All for 65 points?

I know it's listed being armed with exactly that in the codex, but I just want to be absolutely sure. The doubt comes from the fact that the Taurox battle cannon is listed in the wargear as being 28 points. But it's only available to the Taurox Prime, which looks like just comes automatically on the vehicle. Or am I missing something and a Taurox Prime with a Taurox battle cannon is actually 93 points?

 NoIAMDirtyDan wrote:
Ahhh, I see.

And while I'm asking ID10T questions on points, I've got just one more: Am I correct in that a Taurox Prime is 65 points and comes equipped with a Taurox battle cannon and two hot-shot volley guns? All for 65 points?

I know it's listed being armed with exactly that in the codex, but I just want to be absolutely sure. The doubt comes from the fact that the Taurox battle cannon is listed in the wargear as being 28 points. But it's only available to the Taurox Prime, which looks like just comes automatically on the vehicle. Or am I missing something and a Taurox Prime with a Taurox battle cannon is actually 93 points?

Automatic wargear isn't free or baked in unless the rules explicitly say so. A Taurox Prime with Battle Cannon and 2 Hotshot Volley Guns has to pay it's Base Cost, plus the cost of a Battle cannon, plus the cost of two hot shot Volley Guns.

See the top of the table, where it says "does not include wargear"? You always pay for what the model has, but you only pay with what you end up with.

Compare that with the Named Characters, which say "Including wargear".

So a Taurox Prime that has it's default loadout will cost Base+Cannon+2xVolley Guns, but if you decide to swap the Cannon for a Gatling, you only pay Base+Gattling+2xVolley Guns

Thanks for pointing out the "does not include wargear," and I just saw lasguns and the like listed as well at 0 points which makes more sense to me (Previously I saw you could buy Guardsmen but not lasguns so that's where I assumed units just came automatically with their gear).

Thanks! My 750pt list is now a lot closer to 1k but that's a nice number to round it off at lol

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The real reason is that Plasma Guns for Space Marines (A BS3+ Army) cost 13 points.

Logically this extrapolates as ALL Plasma Guns should cost 13 points, which makes sense, until you realise that those plasma guns are going to be far less effective on a BS4+ model for the same points cost. The points cost of a Plasma Gun for Marines is based on the assumption that the model firing it is going to need a 3+ to hit. Obviously you can't lower the cost of a Base Guardsman to compensate, so you need to lower the cost of the actual gun. Scions have a very high amount of access to Plasma Guns as well as hitting the same as Marines, so it makes sense the gun should cost the same for them.

Real issue though is only 2 weapons get this special treatment in one codex when it should be all weapons(barring flamers) in all codexes. GW's screwup with new point cost system when they moved it to table at the back.

Not really. For most weapons it's not that much of an issue. Plasma is just really REALLY good and the overcharge option just makes it even better.

The reintroduction of the 2nd ed "safe" and "overcharged" modes has not turned out well. Giving it +1S and double damage really skews things too heavily in favour of always overcharging, exploding be damned because you're going to make your points back regardless.

If they gave it either +1S or +1D instead of both, I don't think this would be a problem.

Does BS3+ benefit more from other BS requiring weapon than BS4+? Yes? Needs to pay more. Even that's not enough but best I expect GW ever to bother with.

tneva82 wrote:
Does BS3+ benefit more from other BS requiring weapon than BS4+? Yes? Needs to pay more. Even that's not enough but best I expect GW ever to bother with.

I guess solving it one broken weapon at a time fits their workload better, and possibility that algorithmically trying to fix all BS4+/BS3+ weapons costs could accidentally create new broken combos. Meltaguns might get crazy cheap and the 'melta meta' would be upon us.

We'll see in March come the balancing pass!

Meltaguns went up in price so they're now just as expensive if not more so than plasmaguns.
I wouldn't worry about 'Crazy cheap' melta's any time soon, when guard are paying three times the price of a veteran for one!

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Meltaguns went up in price so they're now just as expensive if not more so than plasmaguns.
I wouldn't worry about 'Crazy cheap' melta's any time soon, when guard are paying three times the price of a veteran for one!

Don't remind me. My 7th Melta Vets have yet to be fielded... I feel some remodelling coming on!!!