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I don't have a problem with smite by itself.

I have a problem with how readily available and easy it is to min/max mortal wounds and how that is the go-to strategy.

This is another item that takes away meaningful choice out of the game and is almost equivalent to just flipping over a card in a magic game that says "tap your opponent's card out, it can't be used anymore" and then you can take a bunch of that card.

 lolman1c wrote:
Someone told me a long time ago that the worst part of any game is getting beat and knowing there is nothing you could do. In any game or video game if you are defeated it should always be because you made a mistake or you are not leveled for that fight. Imagine being in a computer game where you enter a fight and the first thing that happens is you are frozen while the enemy takes away half your army. There was nothing you could have done and it's not fair... and if a game is not fair it's unbalanced. Smite is like this in the psk phase. You take a bunch of additional wounds for what seems like no reason and that's before the shooting phase! Turn 1 this can basically cause an auto loss before you even move a single model (don't get me started on mortal wounds before the game even begins!). No game should have you sit there and take it! There should be a built in system to at least give everyone an equal defence against smite.

1) don't have valuable units as the closest thing and within 18", either by being out of range or screening as discussed.
2) Use your own psykers, which provide effectively a 4++ against Smite
3) Use models who provide other defenses against psychic powers (culexus, SoS, etc)
4) Use Stratagems that provide defenses against psychic powers or Smite (Armor of Contempt for instance)

You have vastly, vastly more counterplay as someone playing an elite army like Marines against a psyker who wants to cast Smite on you than you do against a basic 48" range anti-tank gun sitting in the back of the board and plugging away at you. A Razorback pays 10 points per wound and requires five psykers to successfully smite it to kill it on a turn. If we're talking the cheapest and arguably most problematic smitespam unit currently in the game, Spiritseers, that's over 200 points to kill a roughly 100 point tank from 18". You want to do that math with Bright Lances?

pismakron wrote:
Mortal wounds is a crucial and necessary component of the game, acting as a hard counter to stacked hit-modifiers and rerollable invulnerable saves. But mortal wounds needs to be expensive because they are potentially very powerful. I don't think any full-smiting psyker should be less than 60-70 points.

This

Every other post here is basically made by elite armies players bashing the Smite mechanic due to its efficiency against high cost models compared to cheap ones (*cough* Horde armies that we all remember sucked badly throughout 4 editions of 40K)

the_scotsman wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Someone told me a long time ago that the worst part of any game is getting beat and knowing there is nothing you could do. In any game or video game if you are defeated it should always be because you made a mistake or you are not leveled for that fight. Imagine being in a computer game where you enter a fight and the first thing that happens is you are frozen while the enemy takes away half your army. There was nothing you could have done and it's not fair... and if a game is not fair it's unbalanced. Smite is like this in the psk phase. You take a bunch of additional wounds for what seems like no reason and that's before the shooting phase! Turn 1 this can basically cause an auto loss before you even move a single model (don't get me started on mortal wounds before the game even begins!). No game should have you sit there and take it! There should be a built in system to at least give everyone an equal defence against smite.

1) don't have valuable units as the closest thing and within 18", either by being out of range or screening as discussed.
2) Use your own psykers, which provide effectively a 4++ against Smite
3) Use models who provide other defenses against psychic powers (culexus, SoS, etc)
4) Use Stratagems that provide defenses against psychic powers or Smite (Armor of Contempt for instance)

You have vastly, vastly more counterplay as someone playing an elite army like Marines against a psyker who wants to cast Smite on you than you do against a basic 48" range anti-tank gun sitting in the back of the board and plugging away at you. A Razorback pays 10 points per wound and requires five psykers to successfully smite it to kill it on a turn. If we're talking the cheapest and arguably most problematic smitespam unit currently in the game, Spiritseers, that's over 200 points to kill a roughly 100 point tank from 18". You want to do that math with Bright Lances?

Requires is a strong statement as it assumes you never roll 3 damage on a D3 or get D6 damage. So if we are going by averages, it takes on average 3 successful Brightlance wounds to kill the razorback in a single turn. What is the cheapest cost to get those brightlances? It also doesn't consider that the bright lance has more points of failure (needs to hit, wound, by pass any save that might exist). It looks like war walkers are the cheapest access to bright lances I can find at 90 points for 2, so you are looking at least 180 points To get to the point where you might have 3 successful wounding hits (statistically that is not the case). If we look at statistically each bright lance shot does 1.6 damage on average, So you need an average of 7 Brightlances to kill said razorback in a single turn(assuming no -1 to hit, no cover). The cost of that is 4 war walkers or 360 points (for 8 lances). Compare that to the spirit seer with smite. Each Spirit seer averages 1.79 damage [75% chance to get D3 smite (27/36), 8 % chance to get D6 smite (3/36)] So it takes on average 6 Spirit seers to kill the Razorback in 1 turn or 270 points. SO it seems to me that smite is coming out ahead in this comparison. Though it is also true that range and ability to choose target fall in favor of the bright lance.

Another important consideration in this comparison, mortal wounds carry over and bright lance damage does not. So those bright lances on average kill only 3 conscripts, or 3 primaris marines, and only 2 Terminators, where The spirit seers kill 10 conscripts and 5 primaris/terminators.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Mortal wounds is a crucial and necessary component of the game, acting as a hard counter to stacked hit-modifiers and rerollable invulnerable saves. But mortal wounds needs to be expensive because they are potentially very powerful. I don't think any full-smiting psyker should be less than 60-70 points.

This

Every other post here is basically made by elite armies players bashing the Smite mechanic due to its efficiency against high cost models compared to cheap ones (*cough* Horde armies that we all remember sucked badly throughout 4 editions of 40K)

Its fine in small doses and it has its uses and counters

but like literally all the problems with this game its when you spam it it becomes a problem.

Smite is fine, cheap psykers are not.

Smite should not be available at a points cost where you can smite Ork Boys, expect to kill only 10 points worth a cast, and consider that a perfectly reasonable return on your points.

I think naked mind-bullet Smiters should be a minimum of 70 points. I'd prefer if most psykers could cast 2 powers, had a reasonable amount of gear and stats so they could operate in other phases of the game, but cost 120+ points. If you want to spam that then you are going to have a very small army with it.

Tyel wrote:
Smite is fine, cheap psykers are not.

Smite should not be available at a points cost where you can smite Ork Boys, expect to kill only 10 points worth a cast, and consider that a perfectly reasonable return on your points.

I think naked mind-bullet Smiters should be a minimum of 70 points. I'd prefer if most psykers could cast 2 powers, had a reasonable amount of gear and stats so they could operate in other phases of the game, but cost 120+ points. If you want to spam that then you are going to have a very small army with it.

What statline do you mean by naked? Do you mean WS4+ BS4+ S 3 T3 etc etc. like a trained guardsmen? Or WS5+ BS5+ S3 T3 etc etc. like an untrained human? Or T4 Str4 like a Librarian? How many wounds? 4 like a Primaris Psyker or 6 like a Primaris Librarian?

Because if you think paying 70 points is worth it on making a naked Guardsman be able to cast smite (and have like, 2 or 3 more wounds), then you're bonkers.

I like the smite mechanic. In all my games of 8th I have not had any bad experiences from being on the receiving end, including a pre-codex game against GK. This is all part and parcel of that element of a new edition where you have to change and adapt your tactics from the previous edition. Points perhaps need to be adjusted on some models but not to the extent that it ruins a perfectly good aspect of the game.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


What statline do you mean by naked? Do you mean WS4+ BS4+ S 3 T3 etc etc. like a trained guardsmen? Or WS5+ BS5+ S3 T3 etc etc. like an untrained human? Or T4 Str4 like a Librarian? How many wounds? 4 like a Primaris Psyker or 6 like a Primaris Librarian?

Because if you think paying 70 points is worth it on making a naked Guardsman be able to cast smite (and have like, 2 or 3 more wounds), then you're bonkers.

It probably is worth it, because the smite is too good. You're right, in theory the better stats are worth something, but most of the value of the psyker is the smite. It overshadows everything else the psyker can do, and that's a problem. It should be possible to have psykers (even cheap psykers) whose purpose is to do something else than smite.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Smite is fine, cheap psykers are not.

Smite should not be available at a points cost where you can smite Ork Boys, expect to kill only 10 points worth a cast, and consider that a perfectly reasonable return on your points.

I think naked mind-bullet Smiters should be a minimum of 70 points. I'd prefer if most psykers could cast 2 powers, had a reasonable amount of gear and stats so they could operate in other phases of the game, but cost 120+ points. If you want to spam that then you are going to have a very small army with it.

What statline do you mean by naked? Do you mean WS4+ BS4+ S 3 T3 etc etc. like a trained guardsmen? Or WS5+ BS5+ S3 T3 etc etc. like an untrained human? Or T4 Str4 like a Librarian? How many wounds? 4 like a Primaris Psyker or 6 like a Primaris Librarian?

Because if you think paying 70 points is worth it on making a naked Guardsman be able to cast smite (and have like, 2 or 3 more wounds), then you're bonkers.

It is absolutely worth it assuming he also gets to be a character, making him largely immune to ranged fire power. It is a min-maxing problem, you are giving up things you have no reason to use in the first place. For instance you could make a Psyker that is LD 1 with 1 A and S1 that has WS 6+ and BS 6+ and none of that really matters to what he is doing on the battlefield, and as such should be given very little consideration in his costing. T and save should have a bit more value, but mostly his powers should be the main source of his cost. Unless there is some other arbitrary limit on the number of psykers allowing super cheap psykers is a problem.

For instance if we went back to the old FOC with 2 HQ choices max, you could have a weak psyker worth 15 points and it would largely not be an issue, because you could only bring 2 of them (or 3 if you made them elites) due to other constraints. When they lack such restraints and you can bring 10-15, get CP for doing so, and spam the powers it creates problem. GW has recognized the issue with psychic power spam, other than smite, but not for smite. If for instance you subjected smite to the "rule of one" then you could also allow for super cheap psykers.

 lolman1c wrote:
Someone told me a long time ago that the worst part of any game is getting beat and knowing there is nothing you could do. In any game or video game if you are defeated it should always be because you made a mistake or you are not leveled for that fight. Imagine being in a computer game where you enter a fight and the first thing that happens is you are frozen while the enemy takes away half your army. There was nothing you could have done and it's not fair... and if a game is not fair it's unbalanced. Smite is like this in the psk phase. You take a bunch of additional wounds for what seems like no reason and that's before the shooting phase! Turn 1 this can basically cause an auto loss before you even move a single model (don't get me started on mortal wounds before the game even begins!). No game should have you sit there and take it! There should be a built in system to at least give everyone an equal defence against smite.

The worst thing is getting beat and thinking you made no mistakes. That's the true failure - even when odds are stacked against you.

the_scotsman wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Someone told me a long time ago that the worst part of any game is getting beat and knowing there is nothing you could do. In any game or video game if you are defeated it should always be because you made a mistake or you are not leveled for that fight. Imagine being in a computer game where you enter a fight and the first thing that happens is you are frozen while the enemy takes away half your army. There was nothing you could have done and it's not fair... and if a game is not fair it's unbalanced. Smite is like this in the psk phase. You take a bunch of additional wounds for what seems like no reason and that's before the shooting phase! Turn 1 this can basically cause an auto loss before you even move a single model (don't get me started on mortal wounds before the game even begins!). No game should have you sit there and take it! There should be a built in system to at least give everyone an equal defence against smite.

1) don't have valuable units as the closest thing and within 18", either by being out of range or screening as discussed.
2) Use your own psykers, which provide effectively a 4++ against Smite
3) Use models who provide other defenses against psychic powers (culexus, SoS, etc)
4) Use Stratagems that provide defenses against psychic powers or Smite (Armor of Contempt for instance)

You have vastly, vastly more counterplay as someone playing an elite army like Marines against a psyker who wants to cast Smite on you than you do against a basic 48" range anti-tank gun sitting in the back of the board and plugging away at you. A Razorback pays 10 points per wound and requires five psykers to successfully smite it to kill it on a turn. If we're talking the cheapest and arguably most problematic smitespam unit currently in the game, Spiritseers, that's over 200 points to kill a roughly 100 point tank from 18". You want to do that math with Bright Lances?

Not everyone has good screen units. And before you say the word allies, no, armies should be able to stand on their own. Not everyone has psykers. Not everyone is imperium. Against tac marines or necron warriors guarding more relevant stuff, a couple smites still nets a good return on your psyker's cost, heaven help them if you critical smite. And thanks to MW overflow, smite isn't bad against anything. You still knock out multiple guardsmen models virtually guaranteed, which is more than a heavy bolter can say. And remember, there are are lot of "smite-like" powers that don't care about screens.

The problem is and always be the mortal wound mechanic. There are several units like terminators and canoptek wraiths that get absolutely hosed by them due to their high points per wound, presumably because they're paying for defenses to stop from losing those wounds so easily. Those types of models are currently sitting on shelves, and when you look at their stats, you wonder why. It's because the entire MW mechanic hard counters them, and MW are all over the place. You can't even have your chapter master in a pile of relics and armor and force fields stand next to a pair of rhinos.

And the problem is that you can't get those guys back on the table just by reducing their cost until they're played, because at that point they will be paying so little for their defensive mitigation that when they roll up on someone who DOESN'T have mortal wounds, they'll be crazy overpowered. Going that route will just bring us back to 7e where the competitive games you either had the hard counter or didn't, and actually playing the game was usually just a formality.

It seems to me some people just have a very intense traumatic memory of near invincible units from last edition, but those guys are gone. You can't invis a big pile of wolves, you can't face tank with a character with 2+/3++/3++ while abusing look out sir to make sure things he couldn't tank killed some putz instead...let it go. Smashy can't hurt you anymore.

Haha I've played against a Daemon army with like 10 smites/turn with my AdMech and even with the Graia stratagem (deny on 4+ that doesn't work) and dogma (FNP 6+) there was just nothing I could do. Shoot them ? Sure I got nice anti-horde weapons. But they have a 4++.

Smite is so much bullsh*t I plan on changing my army entirely because of how defenseless I am against that kind of stuff. I'd like to be able to participate in my opponent's psychic phase instead of just taking down models.

 Aaranis wrote:
Haha I've played against a Daemon army with like 10 smites/turn with my AdMech and even with the Graia stratagem (deny on 4+ that doesn't work) and dogma (FNP 6+) there was just nothing I could do. Shoot them ? Sure I got nice anti-horde weapons. But they have a 4++.

Smite is so much bullsh*t I plan on changing my army entirely because of how defenseless I am against that kind of stuff. I'd like to be able to participate in my opponent's psychic phase instead of just taking down models.

10 brimstone smites is, iirc, 10 wounds per turn, and they have very low shooting and awful CC.

I can't imagine an army that would so easily fold after suffering 10 wounds between the shooting, assault, and psychic phases. Your story is bupkis.

If you mean smites that were done by units other than Brimstones, well, IIRC none of the Daemon psykers are actually "cheap" psykers, so that's... still not a problem.

What if smite only ignored invlun saves? -1 AP no invlun save?

Would seem to be a middle ground. Wouldn't punish "elite" units like termies too much but would still make it viable against 3+'s?

I agree that it is so spammed because many of the other pyschic powers just aren't good (see eldar vs marine powers) and 40 point full smite units are a problem.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Haha I've played against a Daemon army with like 10 smites/turn with my AdMech and even with the Graia stratagem (deny on 4+ that doesn't work) and dogma (FNP 6+) there was just nothing I could do. Shoot them ? Sure I got nice anti-horde weapons. But they have a 4++.

Smite is so much bullsh*t I plan on changing my army entirely because of how defenseless I am against that kind of stuff. I'd like to be able to participate in my opponent's psychic phase instead of just taking down models.

10 brimstone smites is, iirc, 10 wounds per turn, and they have very low shooting and awful CC.

I can't imagine an army that would so easily fold after suffering 10 wounds between the shooting, assault, and psychic phases. Your story is bupkis.

If you mean smites that were done by units other than Brimstones, well, IIRC none of the Daemon psykers are actually "cheap" psykers, so that's... still not a problem.

Alright so it was a 1500 pts game, I'll try to recall what his army was made of:

- At least 4 units of I think 10 Brimstones (the ones that don't split);
- 1 Chariot of Tzeentch;
- 3 Flamers;
- 1 or two Exalted Flamers, don't remember really;
- Ahriman on Disc;
- Nurgle Sorcerer;
- 1 Nurgle Daemon Prince;
- 1 Tzeentch Daemon Prince;
- Changeling;
And I think there was one or two Heralds of Tzeentch too.

I think I used to suffer at least 6 Smites a turn, all at D3 or D6 each, plus a few other powers that gave MW too and one malus power. Then get burnt by the flamers, assaulted by the whole army and just dying in droves, because that's what AdMech does when it tries to play a list other than 6 Kastellans + Cawl and 3 Onagers + 60 Conscripts that never moves.

Brimstones do D3 MW with their one die Smite, right ? And they get one casualty each time they cast Smite or something like that, correct ? I didn't verify his army because I trust the guy.

Well Brimstones were pretty heavely nerfed both in his cost (from 2ppm to 3ppm) and his Smite power. So it depends if that list was pre or post Brimstone nerf.

I like smite as it is for the most part, and a lot of this could be fixed by " elite " units' costs being tuned for the reality of 8th ed.

 Galas wrote:
Well Brimstones were pretty heavely nerfed both in his cost (from 2ppm to 3ppm) and his Smite power. So it depends if that list was pre or post Brimstone nerf.

It was recent, so I guess it was post-nerf. However I just checked the Errata for Chaos and I don't remember if he was aware if they only deal 1 MW when under 10 Brimstones. Either way I got totally trashed, but I'll ask him next time.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
mortal wounds should've never gotten out of the gate in their current form. The "you take wounds and there's nothing you can do about it" mechanic should be reserved for orbital strikes, titan explosions, and the like.

They just need to make the other 90% of mortal wounds into auto wounds at ap values based on the thing (minus a lot for smite and most other powers, minus a little or none for junk transports exploding.) Invuln saves shouldn't be so easily bypassed.

Thanks to mortal wounds having no degree of scaling whatsoever, like half the powers in the game are "smite but slightly different."

If you want to remove mortal wounds, you have to remove invulnerable saves.

 Crimson wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Name one army without access to any screening units.

All non-chaos Space Marine armies.

You're forgetting that Unit is of the opinion that any Imperium force should be made up of mostly Guard or else you're intentionally throwing the game.

You don't have to remove inv saves. Inv saves have been in the game for literally decades. Mortal wounds are a couple of years old starting with AOS and months old in 40k. The game functioned fine without mortal wounds all this time.

Indeed. The point of invulnerable saves is that they make models harder to kill.

 auticus wrote:
You don't have to remove inv saves. Inv saves have been in the game for literally decades. Mortal wounds are a couple of years old starting with AOS and months old in 40k. The game functioned fine without mortal wounds all this time.

to be fair, invul saves started to get rather crazy over the last several editions. In 3E and 4E most invul saves were 5+, a good one was 4+, anything better was rare, especially against shooting, Then with 5E they started making 3++ somewhat normal for tanky characters and some heavy infantry, and with 6E/7E they got into not just 2++ saves (which were previously unheard of outside of the DE Shadowfield that broke permanently on the first failed saved and Thraka's "one turn per game" usage) but rerollable 3++ and 2++ saves.

That got to be more than a wee bit ridiculous. 8E has mostly done a good job of keeping that under better control than 7E (barring a couple standout issues), but we did see major creep in invul power over the editions.

Yes, to be fair, the Storm Shield was a 4+ invuln and only in combat, and units with a 4+ invuln were usually 1 per army on the HQ (back when Iron Halos were max 1 per army).

You could also get a 4+ from a Rosarius, which was TOTALLY WHACKY because it was not limited to 1 per army, but rather a whole 2 per army because of HQ slot restrictions.

You were lucky to have a 5+ invuln.

But after 5th broke the 3++ invuln barrier they became ridiculous, and have never really been toned back down to reasonable. Hell, if the new Custodes HQ has anything like his 30k friend he'll have a re-rollable 3++ because reasons.

the_scotsman wrote:
1) don't have valuable units as the closest thing and within 18", either by being out of range or screening as discussed.
2) Use your own psykers, which provide effectively a 4++ against Smite
3) Use models who provide other defenses against psychic powers (culexus, SoS, etc)
4) Use Stratagems that provide defenses against psychic powers or Smite (Armor of Contempt for instance)

1) So, in other words, don’t play with an elite assault army.
2) So, in other words, don’t play with an army that doesn’t or can’t use psykers. And if you can take psykers, in order to have a reasonable defence against Smite, make sure you take several of them. If the problem unit’s only solution is to take the problem unit yourself (psykers), something fundamental has gone wrong with the rules.
3) So, in other words, don’t play with the faction you want to play, play with the faction that is actually capable of dealing with the problem.
4) So, in other words, don’t play with an army that doesn’t have anti-psyker stratagems that specifically apply to them and CP to spare. That Armour of Contempt isn’t going to help Terminators.
5) So, in other words, don’t play with an army that isn’t Guard.

Seriously though, what exactly do expect something like Black Templars or a Necron army to do about Smite, or even Mortal Wounds in general? Templars at least have their Deny the Witch Stratagem... for a CP they get a 50/50 chance to deny one Smite per turn. Not exactly helpful if your opponent can bring more than one Smite or can cast multiple powers.

Vaktathi wrote:Then with 5E they started making 3++ somewhat normal for tanky characters and some heavy infantry, and with 6E/7E they got into not just 2++ saves (which were previously unheard of outside of the DE Shadowfield that broke permanently on the first failed saved and Thraka's "one turn per game" usage) but rerollable 3++ and 2++ saves.

That got to be more than a wee bit ridiculous. 8E has mostly done a good job of keeping that under better control than 7E (barring a couple standout issues), but we did see major creep in invul power over the editions.

Leaving aside for now that introducing one horrible mechanic (Mortal Wounds) to counter an existing horrible mechanic (2++ rerollable) is a terrible idea, particularly when fixing the original mechanic is trivial, exactly how long do we have to suffer for the sins of 7th Ed?

GW already fixed that problem with 8th Ed. Invisibility is gone (its replacement, hit modifiers, are problematic in specific instances but nowhere near as bad), I don’t know of a Feel No Pain better than 4+++ and that’s on Death Guard where it kind of is their shtick and doesn’t appear to be game breaking, I only know of one 2++ and that requires lots of shenanigans and powers and stratagems and can’t be put on a dangerous unit or for very long, and the only rerollable save mechanic I can think of is Magnus which I’ve already said on this thread is an isolated and easily fixed case.

People need to accept that the Chapter Master Smash and invisible Wolfstar boogeymen are dead and buried with last edition. Punishing people who play Custodes or Storm Shield Terminators in 8th because of the problems of 7th is the act of a petulant child. Don’t bring 7th ed’s baggage into 8th.

kombatwombat wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Then with 5E they started making 3++ somewhat normal for tanky characters and some heavy infantry, and with 6E/7E they got into not just 2++ saves (which were previously unheard of outside of the DE Shadowfield that broke permanently on the first failed saved and Thraka's "one turn per game" usage) but rerollable 3++ and 2++ saves.

That got to be more than a wee bit ridiculous. 8E has mostly done a good job of keeping that under better control than 7E (barring a couple standout issues), but we did see major creep in invul power over the editions.

Leaving aside for now that introducing one horrible mechanic (Mortal Wounds) to counter an existing horrible mechanic (2++ rerollable) is a terrible idea, particularly when fixing the original mechanic is trivial, exactly how long do we have to suffer for the sins of 7th Ed?

GW already fixed that problem with 8th Ed. Invisibility is gone (its replacement, hit modifiers, are problematic in specific instances but nowhere near as bad), I don’t know of a Feel No Pain better than 4+++ and that’s on Death Guard where it kind of is their shtick and doesn’t appear to be game breaking, I only know of one 2++ and that requires lots of shenanigans and powers and stratagems and can’t be put on a dangerous unit or for very long, and the only rerollable save mechanic I can think of is Magnus which I’ve already said on this thread is an isolated and easily fixed case.

People need to accept that the Chapter Master Smash and invisible Wolfstar boogeymen are dead and buried with last edition. Punishing people who play Custodes or Storm Shield Terminators in 8th because of the problems of 7th is the act of a petulant child. Don’t bring 7th ed’s baggage into 8th.

My only point was that invul saves had grown to be issues in previous editions, I made no argument regarding Mortal Wounds, as they're currently implemented, being a needed or appropriate counter mechanism in 8E. My jury is still way out to lunch on Mortal Wounds/Smite/etc in general currently.

Yeah sorry Vaktathi I kinda targeted that at you when it should have been at the thread in general

I wouldn't be sad to see mortal wounds changed into "you still get your invuln save" since the mechanics that made obscene invulnerables a thing are now dead and gone.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Well Brimstones were pretty heavely nerfed both in his cost (from 2ppm to 3ppm) and his Smite power. So it depends if that list was pre or post Brimstone nerf.

It was recent, so I guess it was post-nerf. However I just checked the Errata for Chaos and I don't remember if he was aware if they only deal 1 MW when under 10 Brimstones. Either way I got totally trashed, but I'll ask him next time.

Under 10 PINKS, a unit of only brimes never gets full smite.
Also, they only have 1 dice, and a brime dies whenever it tries casting, regardless of success.

No wonder you get trashed if the enemy more than triples the power of his units.