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Hello, I have question on faction "keyword" and detachment requirement. In short, for example since both Guards and Space Marine share "Imperium" keyword, can I have SM Captain and Tactical Squads in Guards detachment to meet the Guards' Troops and HQ detachment requirement? If so, do they still get Regiment/Chapter Tactic bonus? (ex: Cadia Born Soldiers, Ultramarine Codex Discipline...)

Michael Goldsberry wrote: Yes to your first question, no to your second.

All Regimental Doctrines and Chapter Tactics require your army to be battle forged, and that all units in the detachment have the requisite keyword.

If your detachment has SM HQ and other Astra units, nobody gets a chapter tactic/regiment bonus. Only units that are in a detachment that is entirely made of the same chapter/regiment/craftworld/etc get that.

This. The army is Battle-forged as long as all of the models are organized into detachments. Some detachments require all of the models to have the same FACTION. You can have both Space Marines and Astra Militarum in the same detachment in a Battle-forged army as they both share the IMPERIUM faction.

In order to benefit from Chapter Tactics, you must have a Space Marine detachment, i.e., a detachment where all models have the same CHAPTER (e.g., Ultramarines, Iron Hand, etc.). The same applies to Astra Militarum and their Regimental Doctrines.

Well yea that's what I got from Michael but I do want to hear from others too for confirmation, plus the way his explain is bit confusing.

So I take on what he said are:

Yes, Space Marine units (ex Tactical Squad for troop requirement) can be used in Astra Detachment to fit Detachment requirement (ex: 3 Troops) HOWEVER, there will be no Chapter or Regiment Bonus, and probably no Command Points too. Which would be completely pointless since it begs the question why would you do that, because the whole reason you want to fill all detachment requirement is to get that bonus.

So isn't the real answer supposed to be a No?

Isn't this also mean the only thing Faction Keyword matter is for having 2 Imperium factions be played together, however they are both still have to belong to their own detachment..

You can have Space Marines and Astra Militarium in the same detachment - that detachment will give you command points as normal. This is a rule from the main rules.

In order to get Chapter Tactics or Regimental Doctrines, a detachment has to be "pure" - contain only models with the correct keyword plus specific exceptions (i.e. Tech priests etc. in a guard detach). This is a rule from the Codexes.

What about strategems? Would you get ultramarine ones by having ultramarine models in detachment? Saw one tournament list taking mix of IG regiments foregoing doctrines but was explained it was to get access to those.

You need one pure codex faction detachment (Not an auxiliary support detachment) to unlock the codex stratagems for the whole army use .

So for example, a Baneblade in a super heavy detachment unlocks Astra Militarum stratagems for the whole army to use.

Yeah unlike the Imperial Knights, using a "SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT" grants you stratagems, since it only excludes "Auxiliary Support Detachments" by name.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
What about strategems? Would you get ultramarine ones by having ultramarine models in detachment? Saw one tournament list taking mix of IG regiments foregoing doctrines but was explained it was to get access to those.

You only get them if you have a pure detachment of Ultramarines somewhere. As long as it's not a "Auxiliary Support Detachment", just one detachment unlocks it. So it's rewarding you for creative army building and being limited by detachment quotas.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You only get them if you have a pure detachment of Ultramarines somewhere. As long as it's not a "Auxiliary Support Detachment", just one detachment unlocks it. So it's rewarding you for creative army building and being limited by detachment quotas.

Is that codex specific thing then? At least IG codex says any astra militarum detachments(excluding aux support ones) you get the IG codex strategems. So if you have battallion with mordian, cadian etc seems you can use them all. Of course they don't help anything but cadian squad etc but if you have one of each that seems to work.

Or is it somewhere in rulebook mentioned? Or IG strategems work out with mixed regiment while SM ones don't work with mixed chapter detachments.

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You only get them if you have a pure detachment of Ultramarines somewhere. As long as it's not a "Auxiliary Support Detachment", just one detachment unlocks it. So it's rewarding you for creative army building and being limited by detachment quotas.

Is that codex specific thing then? At least IG codex says any astra militarum detachments(excluding aux support ones) you get the IG codex strategems. So if you have battallion with mordian, cadian etc seems you can use them all. Of course they don't help anything but cadian squad etc but if you have one of each that seems to work.

Or is it somewhere in rulebook mentioned? Or IG strategems work out with mixed regiment while SM ones don't work with mixed chapter detachments.

From page 132 of Codex Astra Militarum:

If your army is Battle-forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment.

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You only get them if you have a pure detachment of Ultramarines somewhere. As long as it's not a "Auxiliary Support Detachment", just one detachment unlocks it. So it's rewarding you for creative army building and being limited by detachment quotas.

Is that codex specific thing then? At least IG codex says any astra militarum detachments(excluding aux support ones) you get the IG codex strategems. So if you have battallion with mordian, cadian etc seems you can use them all. Of course they don't help anything but cadian squad etc but if you have one of each that seems to work.

Or is it somewhere in rulebook mentioned? Or IG strategems work out with mixed regiment while SM ones don't work with mixed chapter detachments.

From page 132 of Codex Astra Militarum:

If your army is Battle-forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment.

Yes DOCTRINES. I'm talking about STRATEGEMS. Ie the ones you use by spending CP. Cadian DOCTRINE is reroll 1 to hit if you stand still. Cadian STRATEGEM is +1 to hit if you have already caused unsaved wound to target unit for 2 CP.

In other words if I have detachment with mordian squad, cadian squad and tallarn squad I don't get the cadian DOCTRINE(reroll 1's if stand still) but at least I don't see in codex anything that prevents me using cadian STRATEGEM(well okay this strategem sucks here as you need 2+ cadian unit to benefit. Better one would be the mordian, tallarn, vostroyan etc ones). Strategem page refers just battle forged Astra Militarum detachment excluding the auxiliary support one.

But above poster seemed to suggest for Ultramarines it's different so either he's wrong, I'm missing something or IG have advantage here strategem wise.

Also warlord and heirlooms seems to work okay even with mixed regiment detachment.

Yes. Codex says you get stratagems for being battleforged and including any AstraMilitarum detachments.

So you could have a mixed regiment detachment and get access to all of the stratagems including the regiment specific ones (including the ones that are useless because you don't have the correct regiments).

You could even have an AM detachment that has no regiment at all and still get access to all of them.

ETA - C:SM seems to say the same thing.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Yes. Codex says you get stratagems for being battleforged and including any AstraMilitarum detachments.

So you could have a mixed regiment detachment and get access to all of the stratagems including the regiment specific ones (including the ones that are useless because you don't have the correct regiments).

You could even have an AM detachment that has no regiment at all and still get access to all of them.

ETA - C:SM seems to say the same thing.

Yes but you would have mordian squad so you can use strategem on that. Nowhere in strategem page I see requirement for mordian DETACHMENT be requirement for stratgemen. Just mordian unit. I have unit with mordian keyword. That fulfills it.

tneva82 wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Yes. Codex says you get stratagems for being battleforged and including any AstraMilitarum detachments.

So you could have a mixed regiment detachment and get access to all of the stratagems including the regiment specific ones (including the ones that are useless because you don't have the correct regiments).

You could even have an AM detachment that has no regiment at all and still get access to all of them.

ETA - C:SM seems to say the same thing.

Yes but you would have mordian squad so you can use strategem on that. Nowhere in strategem page I see requirement for mordian DETACHMENT be requirement for stratgemen. Just mordian unit. I have unit with mordian keyword. That fulfills it.

You're agreeing. :-)

tneva82 wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Yes. Codex says you get stratagems for being battleforged and including any AstraMilitarum detachments.

So you could have a mixed regiment detachment and get access to all of the stratagems including the regiment specific ones (including the ones that are useless because you don't have the correct regiments).

You could even have an AM detachment that has no regiment at all and still get access to all of them.

ETA - C:SM seems to say the same thing.

Yes but you would have mordian squad so you can use strategem on that. Nowhere in strategem page I see requirement for mordian DETACHMENT be requirement for stratgemen. Just mordian unit. I have unit with mordian keyword. That fulfills it.

Absolutely. You get access to all of the stratagems including the regiment specific ones regardless of which regiments you have (or not) but you do need units of the appropriate regiment to make the regiment specific stratagems useful.

I have a question on a similar note regarding assassins, I could use some clarifications on how to include them.

I play Black Templars and definitely feel the pain of lack of psyker defense (1 single deny the witch each turn for 1 CP burns won't do a lot against smite spam). So I'm taking my assassins out of the display case and actually use them for the first time.

If I want to include my Vindicare and Callidus, from what I understand with the discussion could I add to my Battalion list a Vanguard detachment with a BT Lieutenant as HQ, the 2 assassins, and a squad of Terminators? Netting me +1cp from the Vanguard, and my whole army still being battleforged and benefit from my chapter tactic?

Thanks a lot

djz05 wrote:
I have a question on a similar note regarding assassins, I could use some clarifications on how to include them.

I play Black Templars and definitely feel the pain of lack of psyker defense (1 single deny the witch each turn for 1 CP burns won't do a lot against smite spam). So I'm taking my assassins out of the display case and actually use them for the first time.

If I want to include my Vindicare and Callidus, from what I understand with the discussion could I add to my Battalion list a Vanguard detachment with a BT Lieutenant as HQ, the 2 assassins, and a squad of Terminators? Netting me +1cp from the Vanguard, and my whole army still being battleforged and benefit from my chapter tactic?

Thanks a lot

Answered in my post HERE in this thread. Any Black Templars from the detachment with the assassins would NOT benefit from their Chapter Tactics as the detachment doesn't qualify as a 'Space Marine detachment'.

Like Ghaz says, the BT in the non-pure detachment will suddenly forget they are Black Templars and lose their chapter trait.

Your best bet is to either minimise the damage somewhat by taking a 3rd assassin or use other non-BT imperial units in the Vanguard somehow.

Thanks Ghaz and Bacon, I really get confused with all these detachment/faction shenanigans. I appreciate the help