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Now everyone's ditched Conscripts and Commisars, I'd expected to make some units run away again. Nuh-uh.

- The basic Insane Bravery Stratagem can save a unit any Morale casulaties for 2 CPs.
- The Fight To The Death Stratagem can swap the D6 for a D3 for another unit, likely avoiding any morale casulaties.
- With CP spam and recouping via Warlord trait/Relics the Guard general can rinse and repeat these all day.
- Catachan Officers can buff +1LD, and Valhallans can halve casualties from failed Morale tests. Oh, Mordians get +1 LD if in their firing lines too?

Astra Militarum have so many ways to avoid Morale it's crazy! The only way seems to be target saturation to wipe a unit at a time out, vs peppering a few and relying on Morale to do work for you, as causing enough casualties on 4+ units to make someone fail Morale while still dealing with the Russes/Basilisks/etc. isn't easy to achieve.

Anyone having more luck in making Guard actually take, let alone fail, a Morale check?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Now everyone's ditched Conscripts and Commisars, I'd expected to make some units run away again. Nuh-uh.

- The basic Insane Bravery Stratagem can save a unit any Morale casulaties for 2 CPs.
- The Fight To The Death Stratagem can swap the D6 for a D3 for another unit, likely avoiding any morale casulaties.
- With CP spam and recouping via Warlord trait/Relics the Guard general can rinse and repeat these all day.
- Catachan Officers can buff +1LD, and Valhallans can halve casualties from failed Morale tests. Oh, Mordians get +1 LD if in their firing lines too?

Astra Militarum have so many ways to avoid Morale it's crazy! The only way seems to be target saturation to wipe a unit at a time out, vs peppering a few and relying on Morale to do work for you, as causing enough casualties on 4+ units to make someone fail Morale while still dealing with the Russes/Basilisks/etc. isn't easy to achieve.

Anyone having more luck in making Guard actually take, let alone fail, a Morale check?

Well, there are three people playing mostly guard in my area.

One uses Catachans, and also uses a leadership banner - his guys are pretty goddamn tough, and he also starts embarked on two chimeras and a taurox. He's spending way more points for the guys he has though, and as such you don't run into the "wall of bodies" problem.

One plays Valhallans and uses the relic to make his one Lord Commissar work like the commissar of old. He's basically immune to morale as such, but because his trait gives no offensive power and basically has no stratagem, it seems like a pretty fair trade-off to make. And at the end of the day it's exactly one lord commie giving the buff - so if you have decent numbers of snipers or something you can nuke him.

The third plays Cadian and is the most competitive, running numerous 9-model infantry squads with lascannons and not spending any points on morale support. I've had success with games where I decide "this is the turn I'm going to be rocking the infantry". I was playing Admech at the time, and spent my turn 1 dropping in with some lucius electropriests, dividing their attacks to take out two squads, and some sicarian infiltrators which handled a squad in their shooting and then another in melee no problem. all told I knocked all six squads down 6-7 casualties, and even with Fight to the End or whatever and saving one squad with Insane Bravery, he lost four squads and had a grand total of 4 models alive at the end out of 54.

Kill 6-7, the last 3-2 usually die, and usually its a case of "is my one lascannon and sarge worth the 2cp to preserve."

You either need to kill units entirely, or do a wide variety of damage spread across multiple units. That, or put him in a place where he doesn't want to burn CP's keeping a few models alive here and there. Trying to beat IG on morale when there are so many fallback plans and strategems is just kind of playing into your opponent's hand, it's essentially a fool's errand. If I don't want my guardsmen running, they're not running, and there's not really much you can do to stop me.

I hate telling you that OP, but that's just the reality of the situation. A lot of people fall into this trap of trying to wipe squads with morale by shooting us down to a couple of men per unit and forget that if the squad is valuable in any way, the IG player will keep them around somehow. The one upside is if I'm making sure my men are sticking around, I'm losing abilities to lose damage, so in a way you can play this to your advantage. Everytime I burn 2CP's on insane Bravery, that's a use of "Overlapping Fields of Fire" that I've lost. Everytime I take a command squad with a banner, that's one less plasma gun. Everytime I take a specific relic or warlord trait, I'm losing out on a Relic of Cadia or Born Strategist. Or at least, that's how it normally works unless I take both the CP regeneration abilities, in that case I'm going to spam everything like there's no tomorrow. However, even there I'm not going to regain 100% of my CP's, so you'll still wear CP's down over time by forcing the player to burn them.

Your best bet is just figuring out what squads need to die each turn, and concentrating them down. Unless you have some sort of AOE ability that can spread damage to a wide amount of units, odds are the IG player will always be able to put the right abilities in the right spots to mitigate morale where he needs it most. I would never count on morale killing a unit in 8th, not just against IG but really any army that was even remotely well built. Everyone has ways around it in a serious context for the most part and the only time I see morale tests that matter are around turn 6-7 when someone is out of CP's and you're both down to the skin of your teeth.

Morale? Morale doesn't even matter.

My dudes do their damage and earn their points back before morale will be any issue to them.

Or... they are on the way. And they die. This turn or the next, it doesn't even matter. Why are you even shooting these guys? Do you really want them out of the way? Have it your way. These are acceptable losses.

There are two types of dudes and morale isn't really an issue for them in most circumstances.

If I want them to stick around, I'll send reinforcements...

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- The basic Insane Bravery Stratagem can save a unit any Morale casulaties for 2 CPs.

If they're using 2 CP to stop losses from morale that's a win imo.

B1okHead wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- The basic Insane Bravery Stratagem can save a unit any Morale casulaties for 2 CPs.

If they're using 2 CP to stop losses from morale that's a win imo.

They have so many CP how does it matter? Two may sound like a lot when you're running with 6-7 but remember Guard are the army that can easily bring 21 while having a 5+ chance to regain spent points.

They really need to change how you gain CP, many cheap units is already advantageous, why further reward those armies?

10 T3 5+ save guys. Does morale really matter? When you get enough casualties to really worry without LD buffs squad is often generally dead anyway.

Speaking as an IG player, I've lost plenty of my men to morale. It's really not hard.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
- The basic Insane Bravery Stratagem can save a unit any Morale casulaties for 2 CPs.

lol

So, for 2 CP, I can maybe protect 1 Infantry Squad out of the dozen or so in my army. Woot.

I mean, it's okay if you've got a unit that really, desperately needs to survive for a turn, but otherwise it's really not going to be worth it. And it's hardly a replacement for Commissars.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- The Fight To The Death Stratagem can swap the D6 for a D3 for another unit, likely avoiding any morale casulaties.

This is still draining CP though. And if you're using this and the above Stratagem, you're now using 3 CP per turn just to ignore/reduce morale losses for 2 infantry units.

I know IG can have quite a few Command Points, but there are still limits.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- With CP spam and recouping via Warlord trait/Relics the Guard general can rinse and repeat these all day.

If you're facing IG players who waste all their CPs saving a few men each turn from dying to morale, then I'd personally call that a win.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- Catachan Officers can buff +1LD, and Valhallans can halve casualties from failed Morale tests. Oh, Mordians get +1 LD if in their firing lines too?

Oh no, +1 Ld. Because that'll save 10-man squads with T3 and 5+ saves from any and all morale casualties.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Astra Militarum have so many ways to avoid Morale it's crazy! The only way seems to be target saturation to wipe a unit at a time out, vs peppering a few and relying on Morale to do work for you, as causing enough casualties on 4+ units to make someone fail Morale while still dealing with the Russes/Basilisks/etc. isn't easy to achieve.

Do you need to deal with them all at the same time? One would think dealing with the Russes/Basilisks would be the priority, with the guardsmen themselves largely being targets of opportunity.

Also, serious question - how much work are you expecting morale to do for you? Do you expect to cause 3 casualties to a 10-man squad and then just have the remaining 7 evaporate?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Anyone having more luck in making Guard actually take, let alone fail, a Morale check?

As above, I've failed plenty of morale tests.

And, whilst I do start with quite a few command points (plus Grand Strategist), I still don't have anywhere near enough to spend mitigating any and all Morale tests. Maybe if that was the only thing I ever did with my CPs, but frankly I have better (or at least more interesting ) things to spend them on.

With the commissar nerf, I honestly can't complain about other tools IG have to mitigate morale. most armies have plenty to mitigate morale, in one way or another.

 vipoid wrote:
Speaking as an IG player, I've lost plenty of my men to morale. It's really not hard.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
- The basic Insane Bravery Stratagem can save a unit any Morale casulaties for 2 CPs.

lol

So, for 2 CP, I can maybe protect 1 Infantry Squad out of the dozen or so in my army. Woot.

I mean, it's okay if you've got a unit that really, desperately needs to survive for a turn, but otherwise it's really not going to be worth it. And it's hardly a replacement for Commissars.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- The Fight To The Death Stratagem can swap the D6 for a D3 for another unit, likely avoiding any morale casulaties.

This is still draining CP though. And if you're using this and the above Stratagem, you're now using 3 CP per turn just to ignore/reduce morale losses for 2 infantry units.

I know IG can have quite a few Command Points, but there are still limits.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- With CP spam and recouping via Warlord trait/Relics the Guard general can rinse and repeat these all day.

If you're facing IG players who waste all their CPs saving a few men each turn from dying to morale, then I'd personally call that a win.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

- Catachan Officers can buff +1LD, and Valhallans can halve casualties from failed Morale tests. Oh, Mordians get +1 LD if in their firing lines too?

Oh no, +1 Ld. Because that'll save 10-man squads with T3 and 5+ saves from any and all morale casualties.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Astra Militarum have so many ways to avoid Morale it's crazy! The only way seems to be target saturation to wipe a unit at a time out, vs peppering a few and relying on Morale to do work for you, as causing enough casualties on 4+ units to make someone fail Morale while still dealing with the Russes/Basilisks/etc. isn't easy to achieve.

Do you need to deal with them all at the same time? One would think dealing with the Russes/Basilisks would be the priority, with the guardsmen themselves largely being targets of opportunity.

Also, serious question - how much work are you expecting morale to do for you? Do you expect to cause 3 casualties to a 10-man squad and then just have the remaining 7 evaporate?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Anyone having more luck in making Guard actually take, let alone fail, a Morale check?

As above, I've failed plenty of morale tests.

And, whilst I do start with quite a few command points (plus Grand Strategist), I still don't have anywhere near enough to spend mitigating any and all Morale tests. Maybe if that was the only thing I ever did with my CPs, but frankly I have better (or at least more interesting ) things to spend them on.

Tone aside, thanks for the input. To put it in context I'm often facing a player starting on 15CPs, recouping his on 5+, generating one from my stratagem use on a 5+.

He can spam Morale Strats like there's no tomorrow for two turns without breaking a sweat. It would be nice if he had to choose but he doesn't. He can play the Morale Strats, 2CPs for his Basilisk, and let's be honest he only needs to do this for two turns to be able to turn the tables.

Regarding how much work I expect Morale to do for me, well... some would be nice! It should be a credible threat to a Guard player but that doesn't seem to happen much.

Morale is a credible threat to guard players.

Do you think they want to spend CP on morale mitigation? The fact that he's spending CP to keep them around tells me that he actually is afraid of taking morale losses.

All you need to do is spread the damage out, because you can only use a stratagem once per phase. You made him take more than two morale tests? Looks like some are in full effect, baby.

The +1 LD traits are all conditional (near an officer, in b2b with unit) and only make their morale match other 10-man units anyways (skitarii with data-tethers, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Eldar) so it's not like it's over the top, and the Valhallan trait completely removes any offensive power the army might get from all the other traits. It's fine.

Again, the CP is basically free. He may not want to spend it, but it won't meaningfully matter because a guard player starts with so many, and people seem to seriously underestimate how many are generated throughout a game with Grand Strategist.

Lanlaorn wrote:
Again, the CP is basically free. He may not want to spend it, but it won't meaningfully matter because a guard player starts with so many, and people seem to seriously underestimate how many are generated throughout a game with Grand Strategist.

They are basically free, but he's spending them for a purpose: because he's afraid of morale losses.

Right, but that's the OP's problem - morale losses should be a concern for an army like the Guard but due to various special rules, even after Commissars are out of the picture it's still difficult to get them to care about it.

Actually killed a surprising amount of IG to morale in a 1K point game. I killed every guardsmen and spend the whole game running from the smite/bullgryn star. BA are still really good at running away when necessary.

Lanlaorn wrote:
Right, but that's the OP's problem - morale losses should be a concern for an army like the Guard but due to various special rules, even after Commissars are out of the picture it's still difficult to get them to care about it.

You say morale losses should be a concern for any army like the guard, but I can't think of any army (even ones like the guard) for whom morale is a concern?

Tyranids? Nope. Orks? Nope. Guard? Well, nope,that's the point. Eldar? Hardly. Chaos? Naw, not really. Renegades and heretics? Sure, kind of, ish, depending on list construction. They have more tools than IG including a unit that auto-passes if it rolls a 2+.

Well, that'd be a topic for another thread, but yea personally I think any kind of "horde" army should face a threat from morale.

So orks and nids at least "should" worry about it, too, and it's probably a failing in the current edition that you can't realistically make them.

I mean, from a casual glance at 8th edition rules one would think "oh, small, elite multiwound units will worry about these multi damage guns and completely ignore morale and hordes of single wound units will completely ignore multi damage guns but worry about morale." and the latter just isn't holding up at the moment.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
Right, but that's the OP's problem - morale losses should be a concern for an army like the Guard but due to various special rules, even after Commissars are out of the picture it's still difficult to get them to care about it.

You say morale losses should be a concern for any army like the guard, but I can't think of any army (even ones like the guard) for whom morale is a concern?

Tyranids? Nope. Orks? Nope. Guard? Well, nope,that's the point. Eldar? Hardly. Chaos? Naw, not really. Renegades and heretics? Sure, kind of, ish, depending on list construction. They have more tools than IG including a unit that auto-passes if it rolls a 2+.

Chaos definitely worries about morale. Horrors get destroyed by it, and the only way to make Cultists morale immune (outside the CP expenditure everyone gets) is an Iron Warriors trait and nobody is playing IW competitively.

Lanlaorn wrote:
Well, that'd be a topic for another thread, but yea personally I think any kind of "horde" army should face a threat from morale.

So orks and nids at least "should" worry about it, too, and it's probably a failing in the current edition that you can't realistically make them.

I mean, from a casual glance at 8th edition rules one would think "oh, small, elite multiwound units will worry about these multi damage guns and completely ignore morale and hordes of single wound units will completely ignore multi damage guns but worry about morale." and the latter just isn't holding up at the moment.

Pretty much this. Outside of Tyranids, who've had Morale immunity as their thing for ages, this.

Now the one thing that DOES run unless you spend those CPs is Ratlings. Put Ratlings in my sights and I'll make any that survive flee!

I do wish commissars weren't useless and was simply an ld9 model that shares his leadership and may reroll morale tests.