Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They are not a dedicated power armor list. They have their own throw away units.

Martel732 wrote:
They are not a dedicated power armor list. They have their own throw away units.

Unless you don't take them, just like regular SM not taking conscripts screening infantry. If SM players can throw tools out of their toolbox and say "I dun wanna" then you gotta assume the CSM players will too.

Vs gaurd you will do best with a strong front line of 3-4 ghost keels with fusion build. Then just spam commanders behind them. Mostly CIB but some FB too. I see no reason to take anything but these 2 unit profiles against guard until the codex comes out. Best part is this is a pretty good list against anything in this game.

Cultists >>>>> scouts. Fundamental problem right now. It's also why IG basically autoroll mono-marines. Yeah, I just switch to IG and play IG vs IG. Okay. There's basically no reason for IG to ever ally in marines.

Martel732 wrote:
Cultists >>>>> scouts. Fundamental problem right now. It's also why IG basically autoroll mono-marines. Yeah, I just switch to IG and play IG vs IG. Okay. There's basically no reason for IG to ever ally in marines.

Where are we going? Do you remember that character from Star Wars Episode IV: "Stay on target! STAY ON TARGET!"

SM have access to screening units and if they use them they don't autolose to guard. That's my premise. Do you have a refutation or...?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Cultists >>>>> scouts. Fundamental problem right now. It's also why IG basically autoroll mono-marines. Yeah, I just switch to IG and play IG vs IG. Okay. There's basically no reason for IG to ever ally in marines.

Where are we going? Do you remember that character from Star Wars Episode IV: "Stay on target! STAY ON TARGET!"

SM have access to screening units and if they use them they don't autolose to guard. That's my premise. Do you have a refutation or...?

I think his point, and a valid one, is that SM have screening units, but guard have _better_ screening units [Cheaper/more wounds] and so while you can screen with SM units, you're shooting yourself in the foot by not swapping them out for some guard squads instead.

The only compelling reason to use scouts is the fact they inflitrate, but so do Ratling Snipers, and they're still cheaper...

I wouldn't say there's no reason to ally in SM as Guard. Allying in some Raven Guard Dev squads seems solid to me behind an AM screen.

Right, I'm not arguing that scouts are better than cultists. I freely admit that cultists are a better screen.

But Space Marines have access to the best screen in the game: for 180 points you can buy yourself 30 T3 5+ wounds and 2 commanders to order them around, as well as earn yourself 3CP. The fact that someone doesn't doesn't mean they can't, it's just means they're self-nerfing towards some other end, which is a fine way to play, but shouldn't be the standard around which the game is balanced.

As for putting SM units behind an IG screen, I think that was a thing at NOVA; IIRC Guilliman was almost always present with some form of IG.

I'm waiting on the new codex before I get too serious about my Tau. The costs of suits is just waaaay to punitive right now.

Imperial Guard are head-and-shoulders above the rest of the armies in 40k.

What you are experiencing is what most armies experience when playing against Guard.

And it's always fun to see the same cast of characters flock to these threads to vehemently argue that guard isn't OP as feth.

People are defending guard as not being OP as feth?

Nobody's saying IG aren't Top Teir. Nobody. That's just Marmatag's cliché response now. "All IG players say IG isn't OP!" Regardless of topic or in this case, complete irrelevance to the topic.

Marm can't quote anyone as claiming IG aren't OP. It's just his joke response.

To be clear, I tried to outline the way I would approach tackling IG, if I were on the other end. It's what I recommend to my oppponents. I do not claim power equality between Tau and IG, nor that they're anywhere on even footing, or that the approach I suggest is points-feasible without modification between mutually consenting gamers.

But, you know, not just saying, "There's no hope period. Give up, don't play. You're foolish to try." Amounts to championing IG as not OP.

All this being said, I think that indirect fire mode getting a -1 to hit fixes a LOT of problem. No discount on the models, either. Exactly as they are, but with -1 to hit. So that becomes -2 against raven guard and altoic. That makes taking those units suitably risky.

Because as it stands, the Manticore is a 180 pt tank, not 140.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right, I'm not arguing that scouts are better than cultists. I freely admit that cultists are a better screen.

But Space Marines have access to the best screen in the game: for 180 points you can buy yourself 30 T3 5+ wounds and 2 commanders to order them around, as well as earn yourself 3CP. The fact that someone doesn't doesn't mean they can't, it's just means they're self-nerfing towards some other end, which is a fine way to play, but shouldn't be the standard around which the game is balanced.

As for putting SM units behind an IG screen, I think that was a thing at NOVA; IIRC Guilliman was almost always present with some form of IG.

That is just a matter of opinion on whether codices should be designed to stand on their own or not. I can play CSM, competitively without purchasing anything other than codex CSM. Your suggestion is that I cannot do that for marines. IMO that is not balanced. But then I think every faction should be playable on its own, and I dislike that they have pulled all sorts of imperium factions apart to make some things only viable as allies. You can argue all you want that there is no difference between not taking cultists and not taking IG infantry, but financially, number of sources, requirement for a separate detachment etc you would be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
All this being said, I think that indirect fire mode getting a -1 to hit fixes a LOT of problem. No discount on the models, either. Exactly as they are, but with -1 to hit. So that becomes -2 against raven guard and altoic. That makes taking those units suitably risky.

Because as it stands, the Manticore is a 180 pt tank, not 140.

Yup, that is what I have felt. You want to be able to hide out of LOS, it becomes harder to hit, just like it used too. Or you can draw LOS and take the risk of return fire to be more accurate.

I've been on the receiving end of unwinnable matchups, so I feel the OP's pain. I think that in the current meta, this is just one of those super tough match ups.

As others have pointed out, IG have offensive strengths that line up hard with defensive weaknesses of the Tau, namely high volume indirect fire. They also have defensive strengths that line up with the Tau's offensive weakness, which is a lack of cheap, long range anti-tank or fast melee.

I don't want to suggest that you quit, but I'm also not sure there's any secret sauce to this.

Hammerhead needs to be more effective. Wounding on a 3+ against T6/7 sucks.

I'd be on board with the negative to hit outside of LOS. I believe a Codex should be able to stand on it's own. It doesn't need to have all tools, but should have answers to the questions being asked.

That doesn't really have anything to do with Tau beating AM as they stand though... but I do agree that there are simple and reasonable ways to adjust AM to be more reasonable to play against.

If you have one regular opponent, and you're both in agreement that your armies are mismatched, ask to play at a Handicap. Take 10% extra points, and see if that works out for a better game. No changes needed otherwise. Some thing are OP, but then you basically get your stuff at a discount to off set. Or make the IG player pay 10% extra for his units.

 adamsouza wrote:
3 Stealth Teams with Homing Beacons
3 Commanders with 4 of the Melta Equivalents and Shield Drones

Deploy Stealth teams in cover as close to the enemy as possible. Drop the commanders in withing Melta range of enemy tanks. Obliterate enemy tanks/HQs/psykers.

Use the rest of your army to do useful things like secure objectives

Extremely situational. If your suits live to do this, it hinges on your opponent now having hidden his biggest tanks way in the back where I can't deepstrike within range. Not to mention that statistically, it takes more than one turn for a fusion commander to wreck a russ- and they usually die in the following turn. Sure I could dedicate 2-3 commanders to kill one tank... but they're 160 pts a pop, and I doubt it would be cost effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't know Tau pricing exactly, but I'd suggest transports for the highest output infantry you have. If you can keep them safe from fire for one turn, you should be in position to drop and spray.

A devilfish costs 127 pts. 10 fire warriors cost 80. Both strike teams and breacher teams can put up impressive volumes of firepower up close, but at the end of the day you're paying 200+ pts to make a single troops choice effective. And they are invariably all killed the very next turn.

I don't know how your Foot-Slogger vs Embarked Infantry price efficiency is. Obviously, if you could get all of your dudes within range to fire, more infantry would be better. But maybe Fish will allow more infantry to be delivered, and thus have higher damage output? I don't know Tau, but I'd look into it. Right now, what you're doing doesn't work, so you have to try something else, right?

IG works on being able to take hella casualties and maintain damage output. Hypothetically, you could knock every unit in the Guard army down to half-strength plus one, and still face 90% of their firepower.

Is there a possibility to Block LOS to your infantry with tanks? I don't know, so I'm asking. You could use your tanks as a rolling shield for your infantry, to block LOS to them. Have your tanks fire at their tanks, where appropriate. That would be the backwards of what I've previously suggested, nuking the infantry to make space to drop suits... but if that doesn't work, try the other? I've always feared Tau small arms in previous editions. You might try Hammerheads blocking LOS to Infantry, HH's purpose is to try to cripple high damage output targets. When Infantry get into range, spread the Fish to allow LOS for Infantry, to clear space for suits to drop.

Again, with Snipers, you can pick off the support characters that make Infantry Squads punch above their weight, and hold longer than they "should". It would be the first thing I'd go for. 2 or 3 squads, to ensure turn 1/2 deaths. 5+ save is junk, just get a couple wounds per character. I don't know if it's feasible, but that's where I'd probably start.

In all honesty, for a pickup game, I wouldn't be afraid to ask the Guard player if you could tweak points. Points is an easy thing to either agree on or not. You don't have to make any kind of house rule to change the mechanics, one player either has extra points or fewer points. If the Guardsman is looking for an engaging game, they'll likely be thrilled to try it. If they're looking to ROFL-stomp you with Flavour of the Month, then the game was going to suck anyway. So give it at try. Worst that happens is your opponent says no.

Guard are perfectly balanced. You're just another WAAC Marine player.

Martel732 wrote:
All this being said, I think that indirect fire mode getting a -1 to hit fixes a LOT of problem. No discount on the models, either. Exactly as they are, but with -1 to hit. So that becomes -2 against raven guard and altoic. That makes taking those units suitably risky.

Because as it stands, the Manticore is a 180 pt tank, not 140.

I'll love for a -1 to hit if you can't see your target, and give things like Scout Sentinels... you know, scouting rules. "If a Scout Sentinel is within 14" from a enemy model, units from your army with indirect fire can fire at it without penalty".
The same can apply to SM Scouts/Land Speeders, etc...

Wasn't there a 7th edition Ravenwing detachment that gave you some kind of enhanced precision like this?

At risk of championing the IG, they had a 7th edition Artillery Detachment that let Voxes give rerolls to Artillery if the Vox had LOS to the target and was within... 18? Inches. It still wasn't as good as issuing orders to Earthshaker Carriages.

I play both IG and Tau in 8th, although a fair bit more IG than Tau as of late, for reasons this thread has probably already made apparent.

It's going to be an uphill battle, but in my experience the best way to deal with IG tanks isn't to kill them all. Just touching them in close combat takes them out of the game for a turn (even better if you can use pile in/consolidate mechanics to sneak in without getting overwatched).

I'd suggest focusing on your standard infantry killing stuff like a drone swarm around a Fireblade, possibly with a long range commander for a T1 Mont'Ka. Get in his face and decimate his screen and mortar teams early. His big guns aren't super great at handling swarms of 1W models. Basilisks and Wyverns are T6 so any Missile Pods you have will wound them on 3s, for everything else, massed Pulse fire still wounds them on 5s.

Stealth teams can be used to sneak in DS Commanders or squads of Flamer crisis suits after the meat shield is trimmed down. Don't just shoot though, use that close range drop to charge some tanks.

You'll take heavy casualties turn 1, but later on when a squad of gun drones charges a Basilisk and piles into 400+ points of IG tanks and locks them down, you'll be laughing your head off.

Coldstar suits are also great for surprise charges later on, and with how close IG players tend to pack their tanks, you can probably still lock down multiple.

Let it be known that if you line up Ghost keels on your front line...

And use nothing else but commanders - his first turn is shooting at 6+ to hit for most of his army - maybe some 5+. Realistically - he won't be able to kill more than 1 of these - actually a good chance that he kills 0. Just make sure that he can't see any of the stealth drones. Then you drop the hammer. It might be worth it also to include 1-2 fireblades as they can get reroll 1's on important targets pretty easily and they will also be untargetable behind the ghostkeels. It would be GREAT if you could get more marker lights in the list. The only way you could protect them would be to take 5 Fireblades though - I don't see that being worth it.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
3 Stealth Teams with Homing Beacons
3 Commanders with 4 of the Melta Equivalents and Shield Drones

Deploy Stealth teams in cover as close to the enemy as possible. Drop the commanders in withing Melta range of enemy tanks. Obliterate enemy tanks/HQs/psykers.

Use the rest of your army to do useful things like secure objectives

Extremely situational. If your suits live to do this, it hinges on your opponent now having hidden his biggest tanks way in the back where I can't deepstrike within range. Not to mention that statistically, it takes more than one turn for a fusion commander to wreck a russ- and they usually die in the following turn. Sure I could dedicate 2-3 commanders to kill one tank... but they're 160 pts a pop, and I doubt it would be cost-effective.

You can't even target the Commander until you blown through the Stealth Team, who is -1 to be hit with a 2+ save in cover and has 1-2 18" range fusion blasters of their own. Stealth teams are deployed during normal deployment, outside of the enemy's deployment zone and 12" from any enemy models. If you make them your first few deploys, you can get them right up to the edge of the deployment zone.

I play against a Tau player who uses this tactic regularly. It takes a ridiculous amount of firepower to chew through a Stealth Squad.

I don't know how your Foot-Slogger vs Embarked Infantry price efficiency is. Obviously, if you could get all of your dudes within range to fire, more infantry would be better. But maybe Fish will allow more infantry to be delivered, and thus have higher damage output? I don't know Tau, but I'd look into it. Right now, what you're doing doesn't work, so you have to try something else, right?

I agree I need to try something new, buuut infantry is not the problem. I don't really lose in infantry v infantry- I have plenty of ways of dealing with his infantry. The absurd amount of lascannons, autocannons, battle cannons and general medium-to-heavy gun spam is the problem. Every shooting phase is absolutely brutal, and it's not because of lasguns or the occasional plasma gun.

Is there a possibility to Block LOS to your infantry with tanks? I don't know, so I'm asking. You could use your tanks as a rolling shield for your infantry, to block LOS to them. Have your tanks fire at their tanks, where appropriate. That would be the backwards of what I've previously suggested, nuking the infantry to make space to drop suits... but if that doesn't work, try the other? I've always feared Tau small arms in previous editions. You might try Hammerheads blocking LOS to Infantry, HH's purpose is to try to cripple high damage output targets. When Infantry get into range, spread the Fish to allow LOS for Infantry, to clear space for suits to drop.

Well... as I said, I don't think that would particularly help. IG infantry really isn't the problem. Sure I could LOS block with 2 or more tanks, buuuuut that doesn't help me- I'd much rather my tanks lived than my infantry.

Again, with Snipers, you can pick off the support characters that make Infantry Squads punch above their weight, and hold longer than they "should". It would be the first thing I'd go for. 2 or 3 squads, to ensure turn 1/2 deaths. 5+ save is junk, just get a couple wounds per character. I don't know if it's feasible, but that's where I'd probably start.

Legit the only suggestion so far that gave me any pause. I do not have sniper drones, but maybe it would be worth it?

In all honesty, for a pickup game, I wouldn't be afraid to ask the Guard player if you could tweak points. Points is an easy thing to either agree on or not. You don't have to make any kind of house rule to change the mechanics, one player either has extra points or fewer points. If the Guardsman is looking for an engaging game, they'll likely be thrilled to try it. If they're looking to ROFL-stomp you with Flavour of the Month, then the game was going to suck anyway. So give it at try. Worst that happens is your opponent says no.

Tweak points how?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Guard are perfectly balanced. You're just another WAAC Marine player.

...they really, really aren't. Between orders, stratagems, regiment bonuses, T8 tanks, cheap gun spam, there is nothing about a well-built IG army that I can beat. I can kill space marines, necrons and nids just fine, but IG? Every shooting phase is brutal, game endingly so, and I am usually dead after three turns tops.

Also I play tau, not marines, read the thread title FFS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's going to be an uphill battle, but in my experience the best way to deal with IG tanks isn't to kill them all. Just touching them in close combat takes them out of the game for a turn (even better if you can use pile in/consolidate mechanics to sneak in without getting overwatched).

It seems any IG player with half a brain deploys their tanks in the back ranks where getting at them is nigh-on impossible. I'd love to charge them and force a fallback, but how would I even go about it?

I'd suggest focusing on your standard infantry killing stuff like a drone swarm around a Fireblade, possibly with a long range commander for a T1 Mont'Ka. Get in his face and decimate his screen and mortar teams early. His big guns aren't super great at handling swarms of 1W models. Basilisks and Wyverns are T6 so any Missile Pods you have will wound them on 3s, for everything else, massed Pulse fire still wounds them on 5s.

So far it seems like every IG player has heavy bolters, plasma guns and lasguns aplenty to deal with 1W models no problem.

Stealth teams can be used to sneak in DS Commanders or squads of Flamer crisis suits after the meat shield is trimmed down. Don't just shoot though, use that close range drop to charge some tanks.

Not if the tanks are deployed way in the back lines surrounded by infantry squads, which is super easy to do. I would add that crisis suits are horrible, overcosted units that are a waste to take in almost any circumstance.

You'll take heavy casualties turn 1, but later on when a squad of gun drones charges a Basilisk and piles into 400+ points of IG tanks and locks them down, you'll be laughing your head off.

Somehow I don't see the gun drones every surviving.

Coldstar suits are also great for surprise charges later on, and with how close IG players tend to pack their tanks, you can probably still lock down multiple.

I've never even considered coldstars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, to sum up my thoughts right now:

The sniper suggestion was neat and I'll look into it, although support characters are not the main problem- the shameless amount of ludicrously tough tanks is.

The idea of deepstriking in to charge a tank and tie it up in close combat is great in theory, but it's really easy for a guard player to hide their tanks in the back, way out of range. I don't think this is viable at all.

Right now, the only real option I see is to get multiple hammerheads with railguns, supported by longstrike, hiding behind terrain (if I don't get first turn) focus firing one tank after another. With 2-3 railguns firing, I might actually get something done.

Battlesuits are really awful. Please stop suggesting I use XV8s, right now they're so insanely overcosted that the only reason I'd get one is gun drones+mobility, otherwise their points would be better spent on fire warriors or more tanks.

 Marmatag wrote:
Wasn't there a 7th edition Ravenwing detachment that gave you some kind of enhanced precision like this?

There is an 8th edition stratagem that gives whirlwinds auto hit if a target is within 12" of a speeder. (and there was similar for raven wing in 7th). Now whirlwinds aren't all that great so I'm not sure how often it gets used. I'm tempted with my Ravenwing to try it out though.

At first I didn't understand how an army with Fusion Commanders could have trouble with tanks, but reading between the lines I think it's due to not using anything to tie up the tanks once you've eliminated some bubbles.

1) No big targets on the table turn 1.
2) At least 25% of your points in gun drones, supported by Stealth with DC.
3) Minimum size Kroot Hound units.
4) Commanders.

That's the heart of Tau right now, imo. A FW firebase is solid, but less useful against an AM castle. Likewise for Kroot.

You should dominate on objectives. Use ITC rules, they give you a chance if you go second. Going first, game should favor you. Should be throwing out at least 300 S5, hitting on 4's.

It may just be me playing against and seeing somewhat less optimized lists, but when people describe the Guard lists they're struggling against it seems like they've got practically everything: 50+ bodies screening the tanks, enough commanders to issue orders to every squad, at least three mortar HWS, enough basilisks and manticores sitting out of LOS to table their army even if they're totally out of sight, and enough T8 leman russ tanks and/or superheavies to make S8 anti tank weaponry worthless.

how are they fitting all this in a regular sized game? The Guard lists I've experienced have generally had two trouble-causing elements to them, but not necessarily all four. I play against Cadians with a big infantry screen packing tons of lascannons and orders paired up with arty - they tend to be devastating if allowed to shoot but much less scary if you focus a bunch of anti infantry fire spread across the different infantry squads. I play against Catachans with mechanized close combat squads and arty buffed by harker. They tend to be very threatening offensively but since they have no substantial screen you can tie their guns up right away. I play against a list with half a dozen T8 russ bodies, but they dont have a ton of LOS ignoring stuff or more than ~20 bodies of screen because of it.

All the lists are strong and threatening and there's no doubt it's a top tier codex that can do all of those things, but there's a level of fatalism that comes with believing you'll always be facing all of those elements all at once that just feels counterproductive.

Do they have a ton of T8 vehicles? Do they have enough screening elements that it's impossble to shoot (for example) a coldstar commander into combat with a vehicle or two to shut them down for a turn? Do they have all kinds of ignore-LOS stuff? That's going to inform your tactics.

the_scotsman wrote:
It may just be me playing against and seeing somewhat less optimized lists, but when people describe the Guard lists they're struggling against it seems like they've got practically everything: 50+ bodies screening the tanks, enough commanders to issue orders to every squad, at least three mortar HWS, enough basilisks and manticores sitting out of LOS to table their army even if they're totally out of sight, and enough T8 leman russ tanks and/or superheavies to make S8 anti tank weaponry worthless.

how are they fitting all this in a regular sized game? The Guard lists I've experienced have generally had two trouble-causing elements to them, but not necessarily all four. I play against Cadians with a big infantry screen packing tons of lascannons and orders paired up with arty - they tend to be devastating if allowed to shoot but much less scary if you focus a bunch of anti infantry fire spread across the different infantry squads. I play against Catachans with mechanized close combat squads and arty buffed by harker. They tend to be very threatening offensively but since they have no substantial screen you can tie their guns up right away. I play against a list with half a dozen T8 russ bodies, but they dont have a ton of LOS ignoring stuff or more than ~20 bodies of screen because of it.

All the lists are strong and threatening and there's no doubt it's a top tier codex that can do all of those things, but there's a level of fatalism that comes with believing you'll always be facing all of those elements all at once that just feels counterproductive.

Do they have a ton of T8 vehicles? Do they have enough screening elements that it's impossble to shoot (for example) a coldstar commander into combat with a vehicle or two to shut them down for a turn? Do they have all kinds of ignore-LOS stuff? That's going to inform your tactics.

The issue is that guard has a lot of cheap stuff.

100 man screen - 400 points
3-4 LOS ignoring tanks 400 points(800)
5 psykers + a few commanders 300 points (1100)
15 Mortars 170 points (1300)
4 Leman russ varients 700 points (2000)

you can also swap some points of for deepstriking plasma units, or Taurox primes etc. It is really pretty easy to fit all of this stuff into a list if you want.