Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the_scotsman wrote:
It may just be me playing against and seeing somewhat less optimized lists, but when people describe the Guard lists they're struggling against it seems like they've got practically everything: 50+ bodies screening the tanks, enough commanders to issue orders to every squad, at least three mortar HWS, enough basilisks and manticores sitting out of LOS to table their army even if they're totally out of sight, and enough T8 leman russ tanks and/or superheavies to make S8 anti tank weaponry worthless.

how are they fitting all this in a regular sized game? The Guard lists I've experienced have generally had two trouble-causing elements to them, but not necessarily all four. I play against Cadians with a big infantry screen packing tons of lascannons and orders paired up with arty - they tend to be devastating if allowed to shoot but much less scary if you focus a bunch of anti infantry fire spread across the different infantry squads. I play against Catachans with mechanized close combat squads and arty buffed by harker. They tend to be very threatening offensively but since they have no substantial screen you can tie their guns up right away. I play against a list with half a dozen T8 russ bodies, but they dont have a ton of LOS ignoring stuff or more than ~20 bodies of screen because of it.

All the lists are strong and threatening and there's no doubt it's a top tier codex that can do all of those things, but there's a level of fatalism that comes with believing you'll always be facing all of those elements all at once that just feels counterproductive.

Do they have a ton of T8 vehicles? Do they have enough screening elements that it's impossble to shoot (for example) a coldstar commander into combat with a vehicle or two to shut them down for a turn? Do they have all kinds of ignore-LOS stuff? That's going to inform your tactics.

This sunday I played vs an IG player. At 1600 pts, he fit in a russ, a tank commander, 2 hellhounds, mortars, 6+ infantry squads well over minimum size, 2 sentinels, multiple heavy bolters for his infantry squads, a psyker... all in all more than enough to butcher my stormsurge in a single turn. The guard has access to a F-U-C-K-L-O-A-D of guns, guns that hit hard and are so numerous that losing a few do not really hamper their ability to do damage. Therein lies the issue. Quantity>quality in this game.

They have russes for T8, and russes pack a punch. Why on earth would I want to use a coldstar commander? That's a burst cannon and a singular missile pod (pods being insanely overcosted, I should add), and a pod does D3 damage if it wounds. For LOS-ignoring they have mortars, which have a '48 range and are excellent for taking out markerlights, which are kind of essential go optimise your shooting.

Breng77 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It may just be me playing against and seeing somewhat less optimized lists, but when people describe the Guard lists they're struggling against it seems like they've got practically everything: 50+ bodies screening the tanks, enough commanders to issue orders to every squad, at least three mortar HWS, enough basilisks and manticores sitting out of LOS to table their army even if they're totally out of sight, and enough T8 leman russ tanks and/or superheavies to make S8 anti tank weaponry worthless.

how are they fitting all this in a regular sized game? The Guard lists I've experienced have generally had two trouble-causing elements to them, but not necessarily all four. I play against Cadians with a big infantry screen packing tons of lascannons and orders paired up with arty - they tend to be devastating if allowed to shoot but much less scary if you focus a bunch of anti infantry fire spread across the different infantry squads. I play against Catachans with mechanized close combat squads and arty buffed by harker. They tend to be very threatening offensively but since they have no substantial screen you can tie their guns up right away. I play against a list with half a dozen T8 russ bodies, but they dont have a ton of LOS ignoring stuff or more than ~20 bodies of screen because of it.

All the lists are strong and threatening and there's no doubt it's a top tier codex that can do all of those things, but there's a level of fatalism that comes with believing you'll always be facing all of those elements all at once that just feels counterproductive.

Do they have a ton of T8 vehicles? Do they have enough screening elements that it's impossble to shoot (for example) a coldstar commander into combat with a vehicle or two to shut them down for a turn? Do they have all kinds of ignore-LOS stuff? That's going to inform your tactics.

The issue is that guard has a lot of cheap stuff.

100 man screen - 400 points
3-4 LOS ignoring tanks 400 points(800)
5 psykers + a few commanders 300 points (1100)
15 Mortars 170 points (1300)
4 Leman russ varients 700 points (2000)

you can also swap some points of for deepstriking plasma units, or Taurox primes etc. It is really pretty easy to fit all of this stuff into a list if you want.

And again, yeah, maybe this is just me playing in a slightly more casual meta where these weaknesses exist in lists and they don't other places. For instance, the guy that plays the tank company list in the picture I linked above generally has about 20 infantry screening but that's it, because he likes to run tanks, and most of his tanks are fully loaded up with sponsons and hull weaponry. The list I played against at 2k was two transports full of fairly beefy infantry, a single 10-man infantry squad, a wyvern, a FW Medusa, a Hellhound, an Armored Sentinel and then four Leman Russes and that was the list. But the more competitive Cadian list I regularly play against has 60 infantry with lascannons, 3 commanders, standard plasma drop goonsquad, 4 basilisks, 2 wyverns, 2 hydras, 3 armored sents with lascannons, 2 manticores. So, hell of a wall of firepower for sure, but alpha strikeable and not totally impossible to respond to at range (there's almost never enough terrain for him to hide more than half his tanks out of LOS). In my experience your odds of success against his list are totally based on how few tanks you have (the fewer the better, those lascannons and arty freaking demolish vehicles) and whether you get turn 1. I've seen him get two-turn tabled by tyranids and new blood angles when they got the drop on him, and I've beaten him myself with Dark Eldar by just getting turn 1 and presenting a big wall of firepower to the infantry and a couple vehicles.

But again, I don't play in a "Ebay a new unpainted half-assembled army every time the meta shifts" kind of location. People take suboptimal stuff here because it's what they've got and what they've painted and things like "it is boring to paint fifteen identical vehicles and 1200 identical guardsmen" factor into peoples decision making.

Yeah. Guard are really cheap. Just look at the list I ran for a grudge match between Baneblades and Knights:

1) 3 Baneblades. Fair enough, only 3, they're big tanks.
2) 30 infantry and 2 commanders. Oh, that's actually a good screen and IG infantry have lots of utility (through orders) for scoring objectives and more, even with just lasguns.
3) 15 Skitarii and 2 Tech-Priest Enginseers with the super-repair loadout and the Graian relic.

That's 52 models and 13 command points, at 2000 points, in an army that includes 3 superheavy tanks. I'm happy I could make the list less skew, but it is definitely a good illustration of just how CHEAP imperial guard really are.

At first I didn't understand how an army with Fusion Commanders could have trouble with tanks, but reading between the lines I think it's due to not using anything to tie up the tanks once you've eliminated some bubbles.

Try reading the thread. Any IG player with half a brain will anticipate fusion commanders and park their artillery waaaaaaaaaaaayyy in the back screened by infantry. IT DOESN'T WORK. Why people in this thread keep saying this, I have no idea. Even if you use a stealth team to homing beacon yourself in, T8 means you're scoring an average of two wounding hits against a russ- at best you'll bracket it once. Barring extreme luck, you're not going to kill a tank with a fusion commander. And what happens when it's the IG player's turn? The commander is immediately shot to bits.

1) No big targets on the table turn 1.
2) At least 25% of your points in gun drones, supported by Stealth with DC.
3) Minimum size Kroot Hound units.
4) Commanders.

That's the heart of Tau right now, imo. A FW firebase is solid, but less useful against an AM castle. Likewise for Kroot.

I seriously don't understand what you're trying to say here.

You should dominate on objectives. Use ITC rules, they give you a chance if you go second. Going first, game should favor you. Should be throwing out at least 300 S5, hitting on 4's.

Going first, game should favor you

HOW. PLEASE. It's the same story every game- they park their artillery where my fusion blasters can't touch them, open fire, and I'm lucky to have anything left by turn 3.

Yeah, definitely no Stormsurge. Hellhounds aren't really an issue. So really, just 2 tanks you couldn't reach. Don't see how that is wrecking you, if you are easily removing the wrap.

IG are good, no doubt. You have to bring your a-game, and a-list. Tau can hang, but don't have nearly the list variety of a codex list. Shouldn't be long until that changes.

<edit> Just read your post above, you are obviously getting frustrated. Step back, it can and is being done.

You don't have to DS your commanders until the tanks are unwrapped, which shouldn't take long. Two hits is 7 wounds, and you should have more than one commander. Not sure what you don't understand, I listed the 4 key components to a list that can handle AM.

Instead of getting frustrated, re-read what I wrote earlier, it has everything you need. Play good missions. Being mostly eliminated by turn 3 works both ways. That AM list you posted is far from fearsome. If you are eliminating his wrap like you say you are, there's not much left of his army. But you absolutely should not have tanks or big suits, or really any suits.

I can only really suggest what would work well against me.

So far, OP, you've convinced yourself it's impossible. It sounds like you were hoping for an echo chamber. I'm not going to tell you it's easy. I can tell you possibilities, and I can supply strategies that may work, but you've convinced yourself it's impossible.

You've asked for ideas, and shot down pretty well each idea. If you aren't having problems with infantry, you should be able to get close enough to nuke tanks with melta equivalent weapons. If you're dropping individual suits down, there's no way that tanks are killing suits faster than suits are killing tanks.

So if you're facing tanks, surrounded by infantry, you have a problem with infantry. Tanks will die to dedicated fire. I can assure you of that. If you can't drop in close enough to melta, you've got a problem with board control, which in Guard's lingo = infantry.

So you need to front-load infantry killing, to make space to drop tank killers in. That's the jist of what I'd do, if I were you. Your ground units will take hurt from their tanks for a couple turns, then you'll drop in and nuke tanks. It may be a change of tactics, but if you think about it, your tactics aren't working, so you've got to do something you think WONT work, in order to change. Best, most honest advice I can give you.

So seriously, take some snipers, deal with the infantry, and then bring in the tank killers once there's space. If you don't have problems with infantry, you have no reason to not just drop in suits to kill the tanks with mega-melta.

Honestly, dump fusion as I've dumped melta. Get some weapons where first turn WILL help you. My BA usually rock 6-8 lascannons at 2K and BA are a melee chapter. The artillery tanks are more vulnerable than russes to things like rocket pods. Try some mass rocket pod backed up by rail guns. The actual infantry can't really hurt you that much.

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It may just be me playing against and seeing somewhat less optimized lists, but when people describe the Guard lists they're struggling against it seems like they've got practically everything: 50+ bodies screening the tanks, enough commanders to issue orders to every squad, at least three mortar HWS, enough basilisks and manticores sitting out of LOS to table their army even if they're totally out of sight, and enough T8 leman russ tanks and/or superheavies to make S8 anti tank weaponry worthless.

how are they fitting all this in a regular sized game? The Guard lists I've experienced have generally had two trouble-causing elements to them, but not necessarily all four. I play against Cadians with a big infantry screen packing tons of lascannons and orders paired up with arty - they tend to be devastating if allowed to shoot but much less scary if you focus a bunch of anti infantry fire spread across the different infantry squads. I play against Catachans with mechanized close combat squads and arty buffed by harker. They tend to be very threatening offensively but since they have no substantial screen you can tie their guns up right away. I play against a list with half a dozen T8 russ bodies, but they dont have a ton of LOS ignoring stuff or more than ~20 bodies of screen because of it.

All the lists are strong and threatening and there's no doubt it's a top tier codex that can do all of those things, but there's a level of fatalism that comes with believing you'll always be facing all of those elements all at once that just feels counterproductive.

Do they have a ton of T8 vehicles? Do they have enough screening elements that it's impossble to shoot (for example) a coldstar commander into combat with a vehicle or two to shut them down for a turn? Do they have all kinds of ignore-LOS stuff? That's going to inform your tactics.

The issue is that guard has a lot of cheap stuff.

100 man screen - 400 points
3-4 LOS ignoring tanks 400 points(800)
5 psykers + a few commanders 300 points (1100)
15 Mortars 170 points (1300)
4 Leman russ varients 700 points (2000)

you can also swap some points of for deepstriking plasma units, or Taurox primes etc. It is really pretty easy to fit all of this stuff into a list if you want.

And again, yeah, maybe this is just me playing in a slightly more casual meta where these weaknesses exist in lists and they don't other places. For instance, the guy that plays the tank company list in the picture I linked above generally has about 20 infantry screening but that's it, because he likes to run tanks, and most of his tanks are fully loaded up with sponsons and hull weaponry. The list I played against at 2k was two transports full of fairly beefy infantry, a single 10-man infantry squad, a wyvern, a FW Medusa, a Hellhound, an Armored Sentinel and then four Leman Russes and that was the list. But the more competitive Cadian list I regularly play against has 60 infantry with lascannons, 3 commanders, standard plasma drop goonsquad, 4 basilisks, 2 wyverns, 2 hydras, 3 armored sents with lascannons, 2 manticores. So, hell of a wall of firepower for sure, but alpha strikeable and not totally impossible to respond to at range (there's almost never enough terrain for him to hide more than half his tanks out of LOS). In my experience your odds of success against his list are totally based on how few tanks you have (the fewer the better, those lascannons and arty freaking demolish vehicles) and whether you get turn 1. I've seen him get two-turn tabled by tyranids and new blood angles when they got the drop on him, and I've beaten him myself with Dark Eldar by just getting turn 1 and presenting a big wall of firepower to the infantry and a couple vehicles.

But again, I don't play in a "Ebay a new unpainted half-assembled army every time the meta shifts" kind of location. People take suboptimal stuff here because it's what they've got and what they've painted and things like "it is boring to paint fifteen identical vehicles and 1200 identical guardsmen" factor into peoples decision making.

The game is basically pretty well balanced overall if people are not seeking optimization (it is not perfect). The issue with AM is that if one seeks optimization the cost of firepower is so cheap that you don't really need to make choices about what to include.

Here a non-optimized list that can hang with AM. If you want to tailor, drop the support HQ and Carnivores, maybe Pathfinders and some FW. Add more drones and an FC.

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) [34 PL, 542pts] ++

+ Fast Attack +

Pathfinder Team [4 PL, 113pts]: 2x MV4 Shield Drone
. Pathfinder: Markerlight
. Pathfinder Shas'ui: Markerlight
. 3x Pathfinder w/ Rail Rifle: 3x Rail rifle

Vespid Stingwings [6 PL, 75pts]: 4x Vespid Stingwing, Vespid Strain Leader

Vespid Stingwings [6 PL, 75pts]: 4x Vespid Stingwing, Vespid Strain Leader

+ HQ +

Cadre Fireblade [3 PL, 50pts]: Markerlight, MV1 Gun Drone

Ethereal [3 PL, 61pts]: Honour blade, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

+ Troops +

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) [60 PL, 966pts] ++

+ Fast Attack +

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound

Kroot Hounds [2 PL, 20pts]: 5x Kroot Hound

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

+ HQ +

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV4 Shield Drone

Commander [7 PL, 176pts]: 4x Fusion blaster, 2x MV4 Shield Drone

+ Troops +

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

Strike Team [4 PL, 56pts]: 2x MV1 Gun Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 4x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle

+ Elites +

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [7 PL, 115pts]: 2x MV4 Shield Drone
. 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ Multi-tracker: 2x Burst cannon, 2x Multi-tracker
. Stealth Shas'vre: Burst cannon, Drone controller

XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [7 PL, 115pts]: 2x MV4 Shield Drone
. 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ Multi-tracker: 2x Burst cannon, 2x Multi-tracker
. Stealth Shas'vre: Burst cannon, Drone controller

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [38 PL, 492pts] ++

+ Fast Attack +

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 40pts]: 5x MV1 Gun Drone

+ HQ +

Ethereal [4 PL, 66pts]: Honour blade, Hover Drone, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

Ethereal [4 PL, 66pts]: Honour blade, Hover Drone, 2x MV1 Gun Drone

+ Troops +

Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Kroot

Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 60pts]: 10x Kroot

++ Total: [132 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I can only really suggest what would work well against me.

So far, OP, you've convinced yourself it's impossible. It sounds like you were hoping for an echo chamber. I'm not going to tell you it's easy. I can tell you possibilities, and I can supply strategies that may work, but you've convinced yourself it's impossible.

You've asked for ideas, and shot down pretty well each idea. If you aren't having problems with infantry, you should be able to get close enough to nuke tanks with melta equivalent weapons. If you're dropping individual suits down, there's no way that tanks are killing suits faster than suits are killing tanks.

I've asked for advice and every bit of advice I've gotten doesn't seem to do me much of any good. That's not "convincing myself it's impossible" or "creating an echo chamber".

Commanders aren't necessarily getting killed off by tanks, no, but the surrounding infantry will finish the job. Easily.

So if you're facing tanks, surrounded by infantry, you have a problem with infantry. Tanks will die to dedicated fire. I can assure you of that. If you can't drop in close enough to melta, you've got a problem with board control, which in Guard's lingo = infantry.

So you need to front-load infantry killing, to make space to drop tank killers in. That's the jist of what I'd do, if I were you. Your ground units will take hurt from their tanks for a couple turns, then you'll drop in and nuke tanks. It may be a change of tactics, but if you think about it, your tactics aren't working, so you've got to do something you think WONT work, in order to change. Best, most honest advice I can give you.

A fair suggestion. The problem is, I'm very skeptical that I can afford waiting long enough to have thinned out his infantry. Because no matter how much I shoot, he's still going to have a metric truckload of infantry left. And every shooting phase that my fusions are not firing, means a shooting phase that will demolish what I've got on the field.

So seriously, take some snipers, deal with the infantry, and then bring in the tank killers once there's space. If you don't have problems with infantry, you have no reason to not just drop in suits to kill the tanks with mega-melta.

I looked at the sniper team rules and costs. At range '48, S5, 4+ to hit, no AP and no ability to do extra mortal wounds, they seem extremely underwhelming.

All in all I do think your suggestions have been somewhat enlightening, but I generally just feel frustrated. I feel like this thread has been dominated by people with a poor understanding of the problem itself, or how to communicate ways of addressing it.

its not just Tau, the Guard codex is just broken, chapter approved should have adjusted points up to balance them, but rumour is that Robin Cruddace, a self proclaimed tread head pro IG guy, who had a large hand in the codex and chapter approved doesn't want to acknowledge the obvious imbalances.

Part of the issue as well is balancing their costs of weapons to a platform. an autogun on a heavy weapons team is hard to balance against one on an armored sentinel, and a lascannon on a leman russ is a hell of a lot better than on a heavy weapons team. this should be reflected in the unti cost, but it just seems to be ignored.

While Cruddane is actually a pretty decent rules writer and he suffers from the same thing as Matt Ward wanting the armies he likes to be top tier. This would not be a bad thing if there were passionate writters for every codex, unfortunately for Tau like Orks there does not seem to be a passionate writer for you. The index nerfed your army and it remains to be seen if the Codex will fix them (be optimistic but hedge that with boatloads of skepticism.

My honest suggestion would be the same thing I do with orks... just don't play against Guard with them. One of my good friends and consistant opponents plays Guard, and I played him once to show how rough Orks even optimized to try and take guard would do. I did the same with my tau. both games were over turn 3 with most everything off the table. So I bring Space marines or Eldar now... If tau is your only army then honest answer is you are not even close to on the same level as Guard so turn down games from guard players.

it'd be helpful if you actually provided an estimate of what you generally face, because it sounds like a solo opponent who always gives you trouble.

The reason advice people give may not be applicable is that they're envisioning THEIR guard opponents lists or THEIR guard list. Unit saying "Fusion commanders should blow the bejeezus out of them!" is most likely because Fusion Commanders do blow the bejeezus out of 3 superheavies. Me saying "I spend a turn concentrating all firepower on Infantry, then drop in stuff to help deal with tanks" is because the most competitive guard list I face uses all infantry squads with plasma guns/lascannons and they wind up accounting for a much larger point per model than completely bare-bones infantry would. There is actually some value in me concentrating fire and killing the infantry, and then when he responds almost his entire arty core is focused into anti-tank, which can kill my transports sure enough but most everything else is either a flyer or held in reserve.

Basilisks and Manticores are really not great matched up against Voidraven Bombers and Razorwing Jetfighters, which is the core of my anti-tank when I play Dark Eldar. The flyers are positioned high up, so it's tough to hide the arty from them, their anti-tank weaponry is ideal for chunking out T7, and they're hard to hit with a 5++ invuln. A basilisk averages about 1.6 unsaved wounds versus a razorwing with the cadian reroll 1s to hit, and the razorwing returns about 4.0 wounds. Pretty good exchange considering the basilisk is 108 points and the razorwing 155.

I know Tau are bad even for an index, but you have to understand I'm working from an index perspective as well. What I don't know is what you're playing against.

Honest answer? You just can't. IG is the epithome of the best mechanics the 8TH has to offer: cheapest and simultaneously best infantry (in terms of damage output/survivability per point spent) in the ENTIRE game, cheapest and best vehicles, best doctrines/relics/warlord traits, easiest access to Brigade detachments, easiest CP regeneration (and also highest CP availability), best psyker in the game for its cost (Primaris Psyker) with one of the best Psychic tables in terms of buffs, easiest abuse of the untargetable character rule and so on...you would be stupid not to play Guard in this moment

the_scotsman wrote:
it'd be helpful if you actually provided an estimate of what you generally face, because it sounds like a solo opponent who always gives you trouble.

The reason advice people give may not be applicable is that they're envisioning THEIR guard opponents lists or THEIR guard list. Unit saying "Fusion commanders should blow the bejeezus out of them!" is most likely because Fusion Commanders do blow the bejeezus out of 3 superheavies. Me saying "I spend a turn concentrating all firepower on Infantry, then drop in stuff to help deal with tanks" is because the most competitive guard list I face uses all infantry squads with plasma guns/lascannons and they wind up accounting for a much larger point per model than completely bare-bones infantry would. There is actually some value in me concentrating fire and killing the infantry, and then when he responds almost his entire arty core is focused into anti-tank, which can kill my transports sure enough but most everything else is either a flyer or held in reserve.

Basilisks and Manticores are really not great matched up against Voidraven Bombers and Razorwing Jetfighters, which is the core of my anti-tank when I play Dark Eldar. The flyers are positioned high up, so it's tough to hide the arty from them, their anti-tank weaponry is ideal for chunking out T7, and they're hard to hit with a 5++ invuln. A basilisk averages about 1.6 unsaved wounds versus a razorwing with the cadian reroll 1s to hit, and the razorwing returns about 4.0 wounds. Pretty good exchange considering the basilisk is 108 points and the razorwing 155.

I know Tau are bad even for an index, but you have to understand I'm working from an index perspective as well. What I don't know is what you're playing against.

2 guys in my club basically... and they play the exact things I've been talking about: tanks in the back, truckloads of infantry in the front, and no reliable way for me to deal with either one. Of particular nuisance is: a) obnoxious mortars that get parked behind cover and murder the gak out of any and all markerlights I have and b) cheap hellhounds that push a flank and force me to respond directly, or get any infantry or suits nearby obliterated.

3 fusion commanders do blow up superheavies. A knight costs a majillion points though, whereas a single russ... does not.

Kurt, I'm having a hard time juxtaposing that last post with your signature.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't count on a codex as a magical panacea. Basically all power armor lists autolose to IG even with codices.

ITT:
Chaos (the space marine kind obviously) autoloses to Imperial Guard, despite literally mountains of evidence to the contrary.

I run a 30 Terminator meme Abbadon list. I dissolve against IG

Local friend has a list of 80 drones, commander spam and a few Broadsides sprinkled in. He will still struggle to win against IG. Its not a favored match up but it doesnt mean its impossible.

Another player mentioned lack of infantry / Fire Warriors. I'm seeing 2-3 squads of fire warriors more and more in the local meta instead of full suit lists. He also runs Vespids in tournaments

Also - how is the local terrain?

Can't hide from drones. Markerlights are a waste of points, just get more shooting. Hellhounds should get blocked by Kroot and Hounds, or you take advantage of short range for FW.

If you go first, I don't see how he has many infantry left, and tanks shouldn't be efficient for killing what you bring. Multi-wound weapons should always be doing just 1 wound. If he goes first, it's an uphill battle for sure.

See, that's still pretty darn vague. "a lot" of infantry backed up by "tanks." obviously hellhounds, some quantity of mortars, obviously leman russes, and I'm going to assume some basilisks and some manticores?

I don't know what the russes are equipped with for guns, I don't know how many, I don't know how much infantry, whether the infantry has heavy weapons (infantry with lascannons seem fairly common, and bumps up the cost of the squad by half. A 40 point infantry unit is rarely worthwhile to shoot, but a 60 point infantry squad you can focus without feeling too bad)

If you gave me unlimited funds to start a Tau list specifically to fight guard, it'd probably feature the following:

1) Several units of Kroot Hounds. Ultra-cheap wounds I can use to block the movement of Hellhounds, sprint at tanks to force the opponent to target them or get tied up, just generally be a pain in the arse

2) Commanders (I'd just use basic crisis suit models for these TBH i'm assuming when the codex drops commanders will get toned down and ) with quad fusion. I know it's predictable, I know it's not perfect, but I need them killing tanks and that's the gun they can have that does that. Each commander always 100% comes with drones, I'd do one shield with one Marker for every two Commanders. Those marker drones would be the only marker support I'd bother with - I figure two commanders take down a heavy tank, one takes down a medium tank (T8 vs T7 does make a really big difference in your damage output) so I want them to come down in pairs to use the drones and have one out of two markers landing. Every other commander gets a drone controller to get those markers coming in on a 4 instead of a 5.

3) Next thing I need is to create a situation where my commanders can come down, ideally turn two. For that I need maximally efficient anti-infantry firepower, for Tau that means Strike Teams. No good stratagem access means I don't care about maximising my CPs otherwise I'd likely bring some stealth suits as well. Probably around a hundred fire warriors and some units of gun drones, however many I think I could get to within 18" (usually Guard has enough infantry that I can get within 18" of something without too much trouble).

Importantly, I'd put absolutely no vehicles down on the board if I could avoid it. with the exception of mortars, most guard stuff I see either has short range, or is anti-tank. So if I get first turn, great, I spend it scything down as much infantry as tauily possible with the idea that commanders show up whenever I make enough of a dent in the screen to expose a tank or two. Kroot Hounds and Drones sprint into midfield to be a nuisance, and if they survive until commanders come down they'll be a REAL nuisance thanks to character rule+drone savior protocols. If he's got barebones infantry squads with no special upgrades, I aim to kill seven in the squad and morale should sort the last few. If I get second turn, hopefully I can weather the mortars and that's likely the only terribly effective anti infantry fire I'd see since lasguns are 24" range and he's got points put into basilisks and russes and such.

Commanders come down in pairs with drones behind and I try to get as many drop positions as possible so that he cant focus fire on any one given character to kill him then move to the next. Drones tank savior protocols and fire a marker light, commanders fusion away from 12".

That's what I got. I know it's probably not a ton of super specific advice but I don't super specifically know what you're facing.

I don't think T'au players should be looking to fit StormSurges in at 1600 points. They are too big, cost too many points (Not that I think they are over-coasted). It restricts your options, flexibility and movement (all things that T'au should excel at, especially against Guard)

OP

I missed your question earlier. Tweak the points by playing unequal point values. You take 1650, Guardsman takes 1500. Worth asking if you're unwilling to change strategy.

Sniper drones are perfect for killing Guard characters. I don't know the rules, but I'd wager that 6 of them probably have a great chance to take down a one wound character. Characters are a force multiplier worth more than the heir points.

Don't bother with marker lights. Quantity beats quality.

Tau can't play a slug fest with Guard. You have to play to Guards very limited weaknesses. Engage their units in cc. Force them to retreat and deny their shooting.

You've proposed that other people don't understand your problem. I propose that you don't understand your engagement strategy is flawed, and you need to rework your fundamental strategy away from trying to beat them at their own game.

You believe you cant survive their overpowering shooting. You believe you can't engage with efficient tools. You can't gain board control to get into range.



The Stealth suit plus commander option sounds like a good way to mitigate damage. More bodies and fewer marker lights would likely help. Transports sound like they would help.

You lose because you're not achieving board control. You're being forced to engage in a way you don't want to. You need to change your strategy to change that.

I'm not sure if the tools are there. Even if they are, it's an uphill battle. But the core of beating Guard is taking away their board control.

 Stevefamine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't count on a codex as a magical panacea. Basically all power armor lists autolose to IG even with codices.

ITT:
Chaos (the space marine kind obviously) autoloses to Imperial Guard, despite literally mountains of evidence to the contrary.

I run a 30 Terminator meme Abbadon list. I dissolve against IG

Local friend has a list of 80 drones, commander spam and a few Broadsides sprinkled in. He will still struggle to win against IG. Its not a favored match up but it doesnt mean its impossible.

Another player mentioned lack of infantry / Fire Warriors. I'm seeing 2-3 squads of fire warriors more and more in the local meta instead of full suit lists. He also runs Vespids in tournaments

Also - how is the local terrain?

If you play broadsides for anything other than lulz then you're playing badly and deserve to lose. The unit is badly overcosted and shouldn't be used.

I run plenty of fire warriors, I want my battallion detachment and both of my other troops options are useless (especially the kroot).

The local terrain is just fine. Plenty of LOS-block available.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

If you play broadsides for anything other than lulz then you're playing badly and deserve to lose. The unit is badly overcosted and shouldn't be used.

Wow... you sure have become all knowing in regards to T'au units... compared to the short few months ago when you were asking advice as a new player on a T'au list containing Broadsides.

See, that's still pretty darn vague. "a lot" of infantry backed up by "tanks." obviously hellhounds, some quantity of mortars, obviously leman russes, and I'm going to assume some basilisks and some manticores?

I don't know what the russes are equipped with for guns, I don't know how many, I don't know how much infantry, whether the infantry has heavy weapons (infantry with lascannons seem fairly common, and bumps up the cost of the squad by half. A 40 point infantry unit is rarely worthwhile to shoot, but a 60 point infantry squad you can focus without feeling too bad)

I'll try and remember exactly what he had. Something like... six or more infantry squads, at least two of which were veterans and two conscripts. Plenty of bodies all over the field. Regular squads had heavy bolters, most of them. One mortar team of three. 2 groups of 5 man scions, one with meltas and one with plasma. One basilisk. Two hellhounds. Two sentinels with lascannons. A russ with battle cannon, las cannon and heavy bolter. A tank commander with the exact same. I also remember there being some autocannons as well. A primaris psyker.
The most obnoxious problem was the the psyker would make the commander -1 to hit, and then he'd pop smoke to make sure it was -2, the other russ being -1.

If you gave me unlimited funds to start a Tau list specifically to fight guard, it'd probably feature the following:

1) Several units of Kroot Hounds. Ultra-cheap wounds I can use to block the movement of Hellhounds, sprint at tanks to force the opponent to target them or get tied up, just generally be a pain in the arse

I don't own any hounds, but I'll keep this in mind.

2) Commanders (I'd just use basic crisis suit models for these TBH i'm assuming when the codex drops commanders will get toned down and ) with quad fusion. I know it's predictable, I know it's not perfect, but I need them killing tanks and that's the gun they can have that does that. Each commander always 100% comes with drones, I'd do one shield with one Marker for every two Commanders. Those marker drones would be the only marker support I'd bother with - I figure two commanders take down a heavy tank, one takes down a medium tank (T8 vs T7 does make a really big difference in your damage output) so I want them to come down in pairs to use the drones and have one out of two markers landing. Every other commander gets a drone controller to get those markers coming in on a 4 instead of a 5.

I'd probably use at least 2 myself. I'd never spend points on drones, though- marker drones hit on a 5+, and a drone controller means one less fusion blaster s

3) Next thing I need is to create a situation where my commanders can come down, ideally turn two. For that I need maximally efficient anti-infantry firepower, for Tau that means Strike Teams. No good stratagem access means I don't care about maximising my CPs otherwise I'd likely bring some stealth suits as well. Probably around a hundred fire warriors and some units of gun drones, however many I think I could get to within 18" (usually Guard has enough infantry that I can get within 18" of something without too much trouble).

All this hinges on me getting first turn, which is hardly guaranteed. The house rules of my club (which I generally do like) give +1 to the roll-off for whoever finished deploying first, but a bad roll can still screw you.
But yeah, let's say I do get first turn. First off, I'd probably consider some piranhas for anti-infantry firepower- at 71 points a pop, they have 12 shots each; better than fire warriors at long range and with a move of 16 they can get just about anywhere you need.
...a hundred fire warriors. 800 pts of infantry. In a 2000 pts list? That sounds just... bananas to me.

Importantly, I'd put absolutely no vehicles down on the board if I could avoid it. with the exception of mortars, most guard stuff I see either has short range, or is anti-tank. So if I get first turn, great, I spend it scything down as much infantry as tauily possible with the idea that commanders show up whenever I make enough of a dent in the screen to expose a tank or two. Kroot Hounds and Drones sprint into midfield to be a nuisance, and if they survive until commanders come down they'll be a REAL nuisance thanks to character rule+drone savior protocols. If he's got barebones infantry squads with no special upgrades, I aim to kill seven in the squad and morale should sort the last few. If I get second turn, hopefully I can weather the mortars and that's likely the only terribly effective anti infantry fire I'd see since lasguns are 24" range and he's got points put into basilisks and russes and such.

Right now the only high-strength, long-range anti-tank gun we got (that isn't on a stormsurge) is the railgun. Buffed by longstrike, they could do some real damage, so I wouldn't discout them.

Commanders come down in pairs with drones behind and I try to get as many drop positions as possible so that he cant focus fire on any one given character to kill him then move to the next. Drones tank savior protocols and fire a marker light, commanders fusion away from 12".

That's what I got. I know it's probably not a ton of super specific advice but I don't super specifically know what you're facing.

This is interesting. Not necessarily the solution, but worth considering.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

If you play broadsides for anything other than lulz then you're playing badly and deserve to lose. The unit is badly overcosted and shouldn't be used.

I run plenty of fire warriors, I want my battallion detachment and both of my other troops options are useless (especially the kroot).

The local terrain is just fine. Plenty of LOS-block available.

Might be a different meta, most local stores rarely have more than 1-2 LOS blocking ruined structures here and all area terrain. Broadsides tend to do okay in 2000-2500.

I thought you were a new Tau player

I missed your question earlier. Tweak the points by playing unequal point values. You take 1650, Guardsman takes 1500. Worth asking if you're unwilling to change strategy.

Changing strategy is the reason I made this thread, since what I'm doing right now really isn't working at all. I don't like the idea of playing with an advantage- the game shouldn't have to work that way.

Sniper drones are perfect for killing Guard characters. I don't know the rules, but I'd wager that 6 of them probably have a great chance to take down a one wound character. Characters are a force multiplier worth more than the heir points.

Six of them, plus the spotter, costs somewhere in the realm of 140 points. '48 range, no AP, no special ability to deal mortal wounds on sixes (like scout snipers do, for example). Looking really underwhelming.

Don't bother with marker lights. Quantity beats quality.

An interesting approach, I guess. Worth considering.

Tau can't play a slug fest with Guard. You have to play to Guards very limited weaknesses. Engage their units in cc. Force them to retreat and deny their shooting.

Their infantry is basically immune to this, what with their Back Into The Fight orders. With their tanks I could see the utility, but their tanks are usually out of assault range.

You've proposed that other people don't understand your problem. I propose that you don't understand your engagement strategy is flawed, and you need to rework your fundamental strategy away from trying to beat them at their own game.

Well, I'm here to try and learn. The problem I've seen is that a lot of people in the thread regurgitate the same advice that I know isn't going to work against what I've faced- so clearly there's a miscommunication issue of some sort.

The Stealth suit plus commander option sounds like a good way to mitigate damage. More bodies and fewer marker lights would likely help. Transports sound like they would help.

More bodies and fewer markers? I could try that. Stealth suit and commander? ...as I've said a million times, it doesn't work. It really doesn't. The tanks stay out of safe distance and the longer I wait to clear out enemy infantry, the longer I can get totally destroyed. Moreover it'd take somewhere in the realm of three commanders- 480 pts- to reliably destroy a single russ. Who would immediately be gunned down afterward. Maybe two could do it, but the problem is the same.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hollow wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

If you play broadsides for anything other than lulz then you're playing badly and deserve to lose. The unit is badly overcosted and shouldn't be used.

Wow... you sure have become all knowing in regards to T'au units... compared to the short few months ago when you were asking advice as a new player on a T'au list containing Broadsides.

Yup, I did ask that around summer or so. Every practice game I've had since, every critical evaluation of the unit I've delved into, every opinion I've gotten from other players led me to the same conclusion: it costs way, way too much. It's a bad unit for its cost. You will not get a return on your points. It's comparatively easily killed (two wounding hits from a lascannon will do it, statistically), and provides little firepower for the 170-200ish pts it costs.

I'm not "all knowing" by any means, I'm not a seasoned veteran, but nothing I've seen so far has given me any reason to think differently. I might express myself in absolute terms, but that's out of convenience, not out of absolute conviction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stevefamine wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

If you play broadsides for anything other than lulz then you're playing badly and deserve to lose. The unit is badly overcosted and shouldn't be used.

I run plenty of fire warriors, I want my battallion detachment and both of my other troops options are useless (especially the kroot).

The local terrain is just fine. Plenty of LOS-block available.

Might be a different meta, most local stores rarely have more than 1-2 LOS blocking ruined structures here and all area terrain. Broadsides tend to do okay in 2000-2500.

I thought you were a new Tau player

What GTs have you attended with Tau?

If you can show me tournament contender lists with broadsides, be my guest. To the best of my knowledge, the unit is all but useless- overcosted something horrible, relatively easy to kill, relatively little firepower compared to its cost.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Honest answer? You just can't. IG is the epithome of the best mechanics the 8TH has to offer: cheapest and simultaneously best infantry (in terms of damage output/survivability per point spent) in the ENTIRE game, cheapest and best vehicles, best doctrines/relics/warlord traits, easiest access to Brigade detachments, easiest CP regeneration (and also highest CP availability), best psyker in the game for its cost (Primaris Psyker) with one of the best Psychic tables in terms of buffs, easiest abuse of the untargetable character rule and so on...you would be stupid not to play Guard in this moment

/thread

Piranhasx5 with 2x seeker missile 405 pts, 3x hammerheads 2x seeker missle ~543 pts, Longstrike with 2x seeker missiles 201 pts, and 2x max squad of path finder 160 pts,
Oh, and go first, because you can just do that (sarcasm)
1309 so far, and 10 seeker missles on 4+ rerolling 1s, 8 seeker missles on 2+ rerolling 1s, so roughly 12-15 mortal wounds, alpha strike down 1 or 2 super markerlighted units, and then have 4x hammerheads benefitted from longstrike to destroy any and every armor. and each piranha still puts out 12 shots (thanks to embarked drones) s5 to chew through infantry

could even be made more efficient rather easily with markerlight strategem etc, but something spit out quick

actually better becuase pretending 5 ML hits, that's 3+ on seeker missiles re rolling 1s from piranhas! can you tell I am at work?

wait...

two russes, one basilisk, two sentinels?

So, if you had a vehicle out of line of sight, you would be at risk of being hit by...one basilisk.

That changes the ball game somewhat. The reason I was totally discounting longstrike here is I was picturing something more like the ultra-optimized guard list mentioned above, with at least 4 ignores LOS anti-tank weapons, which would be capable of easily cleaning longstrike's clock and leaving you with an unbuffed Hammerhead Pal. With just one 'lisk opposite you, longstrike should be included all day every day. Stick some drones next to him, he won't have a scratch on him.

Basically I think your biggest issue here is just not having enough downrange anti-infantry firepower. I honestly think with the few vehicles he's got with him, two commanders and longstrike should be more than enough to deal with what needs dealing with. He's got a turn of making his LR's real obnoxious with that psyker trick, but smoke launchers are only one turn. If he pulls it turn one with Strike and Shroud, you pop the commanders down turn 2 and on turn 1 you just shoot Longstrike at a sentinel or something.

Basically my advice would be:

1) Make sure everything valuable has a couple drones next to them. Commanders, Longstrike, other vehicles. Use those to eat battlecannon/lascannon wounds.

2) More anti infantry firepower, SMS would be particularly helpful for their anti-mortar capabilities, but in general it seems like he's skewed wayy hard towards infantry but they're not incredibly optimized, which is good news for your points efficiency taking them out.

3) if you continue to have problems, consider my proposal of putting absolutely everything that is vehicular off the board turn 1 and plopping it down in the form of commanders when the time is right. I always tend to assume a general tau player has at least 6 Crisis Suits - there's your 6 Commanders.

I don't buy that this Guard list with heavy bolter infantry squads and conscripts and lascannon scout sents is so optimized that it is undefeatable by an optimized tau list. I'm not making a dig at you with that - I'm telling you as a guy who's still using indexes for most of my armies I have taken on guard lists far more optimized than that and won. Maybe not pure, 100% perfect tournament competitive, nothing but a wall of upgrade-less infantry, 15 mortars, plasma scion copy/pasta and 8 basilisks/manticores, but I have taken on the pretty dang competitive cadian list I described several times now.

I'm beginning to think that Pathfinders are a no go. 2 Fireblades and Darkstrider seem like the way to get markerlights into a Tau list because the uplinked markerlight stratagem allows that module to achieve 5 markerlights on the priority target relatively reliably and have the protection of the character rule.

I don't know if Tau can actually write a list efficient enough to beat IG in a shoot-out, but from what I've been playing, Stealth suits are defensively capable enough to engage in a protracted firefight with infantry and slowly beat them out. As far as engaging leman russes, I don't see efficient options outside of shooting back with fusion commanders hidden around stealth suits. Not having XV8s, XV9s, and XV10s as an option really sucks right now, and hammerheads are straight trash in terms of points efficacy.

Ahh, the often forgotten, but incredibly fun Piranha.