Why are ranged special weapons for AM cheaper than other imperium armies?

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**pismakron**

davou wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
True story: there are no weapons that are cost effective against guardsmen except maybe some nid weapons.

Choppas?

Ork boyz are effective against Guardsmen if you run them there. What is true though, is that any attack which is S3 AP0 or better kills tactical marines more efficiently than Guardsmen. At 4 ppm Guardsmen are simply too durable to deal with for many factions. For various reasons my faction, Orks, deal with Guard a lot better than most.

Regards

**Slayer-Fan123**

master of ordinance wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
IG are paying to little to exist, not too little for their weapons. A guardsmen is a 5 or even 6 pt model, not 4. That's the problem. 5+ armor is non-trivial in 8th. Eventually, GW will fix this after players keep relentlessly spamming guardsmen in tournaments. And everything indirect in IG needs to cost a lot more too. Or have a built-in -1 to hit. That fixes most of the problems. Their direct fire is not so bad.

Of course, Guard are actually a threat now so the logical answer is to nerf them into the ground instead of thinking up ways to fight them.

You've literally said you were happy Guard were broken. Who are YOU to tell anybody to L2P?

Correction: I said I honestly didnt care any more. The 40+ whine threads about how OP Guard are broke my will to actually give a damn.
What does piss me off though is the hypocrisy. I notice that in 6th and 7th any time a Guard player made a thread about how weak Guard where it was instantly drowned by Marine, Tau and Eldar (mainly Marine though) players telling the Guard players to stop whining and just get good and learn to play properly, usually accompanied by ludicrous army suggestions like "2 blob platoons with 2 psykers and 2 priests and 2 commissars". Now that the Imperial Guard are actually powerful enough to compete on an even footing with Marines, Eldar and Tau we have thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread [repeat ad infinitum] entitled "IG are OP" OMG, IG are broken" "IG too powerful", etc, all these countless threads devoted to screaming about how the Imperial Guard are too powerful and filled with tales regaling the reader with magic volley blocks of Schrodinger's conscripts deleting entire armies in a single shooting phase whilst also being perfectly positioned to screen the back line units against charges and also being deployed in a way to prevent deepstriking and always having every model within 12" and los of all enemy units on the board. Or gunlines of LRBT that delete anything short of a titan in a single shot, and yet are always too far away to be shot at or charged. Or magical terrain that vanishes in the IG players shooting phase, but always fills the board in the opponents turn, preventing movement or shooting....
In other words, angry threads by angry posters filled with butthurt whining about how they actually have to treat Imperial Guard armies as a threat now, instead of a easy-meat joke to make their e-peen feel good.

On a side note the only Guard army that is worth taking at the moment is the Conscript volley block backed up by Manticore artillery. To players like myselves whom run fluffy armies with other themes (such as my own mobile Grenadiers list) there is nothing. Our armies are still weak and still struggle against the stupidly powerful units out there. But thats okay right? After all why should Guard be able to win?

I'd have to dig, but you directly said it, and with people quoting you as such.

And nobody here told you Guard was OP. What we told you was how to make the lists slightly more effective so your games could be a lot closer. Some of the advice was solid (running more Divination Psykers) and some of the advice was admittedly hot garbage (Jancoran's frickin Deathstar). You didn't want to listen to any of the good advice though.

**master of ordinance**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
IG are paying to little to exist, not too little for their weapons. A guardsmen is a 5 or even 6 pt model, not 4. That's the problem. 5+ armor is non-trivial in 8th. Eventually, GW will fix this after players keep relentlessly spamming guardsmen in tournaments. And everything indirect in IG needs to cost a lot more too. Or have a built-in -1 to hit. That fixes most of the problems. Their direct fire is not so bad.

Of course, Guard are actually a threat now so the logical answer is to nerf them into the ground instead of thinking up ways to fight them.

You've literally said you were happy Guard were broken. Who are YOU to tell anybody to L2P?

Correction: I said I honestly didnt care any more. The 40+ whine threads about how OP Guard are broke my will to actually give a damn.
What does piss me off though is the hypocrisy. I notice that in 6th and 7th any time a Guard player made a thread about how weak Guard where it was instantly drowned by Marine, Tau and Eldar (mainly Marine though) players telling the Guard players to stop whining and just get good and learn to play properly, usually accompanied by ludicrous army suggestions like "2 blob platoons with 2 psykers and 2 priests and 2 commissars". Now that the Imperial Guard are actually powerful enough to compete on an even footing with Marines, Eldar and Tau we have thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread [repeat ad infinitum] entitled "IG are OP" OMG, IG are broken" "IG too powerful", etc, all these countless threads devoted to screaming about how the Imperial Guard are too powerful and filled with tales regaling the reader with magic volley blocks of Schrodinger's conscripts deleting entire armies in a single shooting phase whilst also being perfectly positioned to screen the back line units against charges and also being deployed in a way to prevent deepstriking and always having every model within 12" and los of all enemy units on the board. Or gunlines of LRBT that delete anything short of a titan in a single shot, and yet are always too far away to be shot at or charged. Or magical terrain that vanishes in the IG players shooting phase, but always fills the board in the opponents turn, preventing movement or shooting....
In other words, angry threads by angry posters filled with butthurt whining about how they actually have to treat Imperial Guard armies as a threat now, instead of a easy-meat joke to make their e-peen feel good.

On a side note the only Guard army that is worth taking at the moment is the Conscript volley block backed up by Manticore artillery. To players like myselves whom run fluffy armies with other themes (such as my own mobile Grenadiers list) there is nothing. Our armies are still weak and still struggle against the stupidly powerful units out there. But thats okay right? After all why should Guard be able to win?

I'd have to dig, but you directly said it, and with people quoting you as such.

And nobody here told you Guard was OP. What we told you was how to make the lists slightly more effective so your games could be a lot closer. Some of the advice was solid (running more Divination Psykers) and some of the advice was admittedly hot garbage (Jancoran's frickin Deathstar). You didn't want to listen to any of the good advice though.

If noone is screaming IG OP then why do we have this plus several dozen more threads about how overpowered Guard are?
If you are talking about the previous editions threads then I will reiterate the points made then: Sure, Div psykers where a useful unit, even if they did go against the fluff of some units, but they where far less efficient than the equivalents that other factions had. Take the Librarian for instance, for about 20 points more you got an extra level in power, +1 WS, S, T, A, W and I and +2 BS and LD, gained a 3+ armour save with the options to increase it to 2+ and gain a 5++ or 3++ invun save for not much more, gained a better gun, gained that weird hood thingy and gained access to the conclave formation of brokeness. You went from being a squishy model that had to be kept away from the fighting or you would die to a model that could walk into the fray and deal some mean damage out whilst tanking a few hits. It was an absurd boost in power for what it cost, and the benefits from Divination where even more useful on Marine units anyway. At the end of the day Guard players where still eft with overpriced chimeras carrying melta vets, ocr priced LRBT's and prayers.

**Quickjager**

That was literally LAST EDITION. Now we are talking about this edition, where IG are clearly a above and beyond performing index before the codex; where in the codex they got was nearly nothing but buffs.

Now they are nerfed but still WELL above the rest of the codices out. Eldar? People were poking fun at me for Fire Prisms being able to fire twice, why wasn't I "crying op?", well that's because they were overpriced by a LARGE margin and now are just slightly overpriced. LRBT? Overpriced by a small amount everyone agreed on that, now incredibly efficient in addition to their tactics. But I don't even talk about the LRBT because there is so much other BS.

Go on, ignore everyone saying Rob G. is bs, that Morty and Maggy should (EDIT) NOT be able to be in the same army, keep on deriding the lower tier codices. Keep on focusing on yourself.

How DOES Tau handle AM? They are very weak right now, it is not surprising they struggle against a better army in literally every way.

Why are ranged weapons cheaper for AM? It is very odd that BS pricing only affects IG, whereas such a difference doesn't exist in other books. Does that mean BS2+ characters in other books are underpaying for special weapons in other books? Or does it mean they are overpaying because the weapon is balanced for BS3+? It is a perfectly good point.

A new player's army was annihilated by IG! He is asking what's up, no harm in that. Was he outplayed or just overpowered?

Sly Marbo doesn't have his points cost yet! How dare they, ffs GW how dare you listen to the players about a favorite character.

How to fix cheesing; a poorly thought out way of "fixing" the game. End of story

There IS NO "several dozen threads".

**Dr. Mills**

The salt in this thread over the IG is reaching critical mass.

In serious though, the IG are the current "WAAC army of choice" due to easily abused units, rules, items etc. I play IG and I'm fully aware on how ludicrous you can make an army. But I have more sense than that. I'd rather have a game where me and my opponent felt we can win, rather than cheesing my way to victory.

But, if you want to cheese, then please play against other cheese WAAC lists. Leave us sensible players to play each other rather than 500000 plasma gun lists.

**Spoletta**

I think we are blowing the "IG are OP" out of proportion here.
If you look at the last 18 top 3s recorded for ITC, there is ONE AM list (and it's a smite spam list). Hardly meta breaking.

Powerful? Sure, but in 8th edition there is stuff much worse than AM.

**A Town Called Malus**

Spoletta wrote:
I think we are blowing the "IG are OP" out of proportion here.
If you look at the last 18 top 3s recorded for ITC, there is ONE AM list (and it's a smite spam list). Hardly meta breaking.

Powerful? Sure, but in 8th edition there is stuff much worse than AM.

I think the high power of the IG codex is less of an issue in the competitive scene, where people are going to be specifically building to try and circumvent its capabilities/allying in IG units for those capabilities, than in the more casual environments.

Because so much of the IG codex is good (as in effective at the role it is designed for at a reasonable cost, even if it isn't the most cost-effective option in the codex), it is a lot easier for someone building an army from that codex to end up with a powerful force, even if they aren't a minmax master. With other armies, such as Tau, the choice of those "good but not the best in the codex" units is massively smaller. Such armies can't throw together an effective list with as little effort as Guard can, you often have to take the best units to even have a chance of competing with a Guard B-team list.

**Spoletta**

That means that is a well designed codex with consistent and balanced internal power. That's not OP, alaitor Dark Reapers are OP since they can be spammed effectively and trample any other eldar option.

**A Town Called Malus**

Spoletta wrote:
That means that is a well designed codex with consistent and balanced internal power. That's not OP, alaitor Dark Reapers are OP since they can be spammed effectively and trample any other eldar option.

Actually, if the weaker choices of a codex are better/as good as the best choices from another, then it certainly is overpowered relative to those weaker codices/indices. It is possible to be well designed internally whilst also terribly designed externally.

If all of the choices of a codex are good, it has good internal balance. If all of those choices are better than the choices available to every other army and for less cost, it has terrible external balance.

**Spoletta**

Though that is not the case, many codici can reach the power level of AM, though they have limited option if they want to do that, while AM (and to some extend Tyranids) can play around and still have a good list.

**Alcibiades**

Vaktathi wrote:
The Tau Plasma Rifle, IIRC, is only available on T4 3+sv multiwound Jet suits with an array of abilities and Deep Strike potential, as opposed to being run on T3 single wound 5+sv footslogging infantry. Again, different platforms, different value.

T5, not T4. Also available in Broadsides.