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I played W40k in the 90's, up until the 3rd edition focusing on close combat (something I didnt like very much, so I stop playing). My good friend continue playing it and convince me to try again this year.

I build two armies, Ultramarines and Death Guard. I put a LOT of time painting them, etc. Cost me a lot of $$$. I was so happy to play again. My first game was very fun, it was a fair game against nice players, giving me advices and understanding my ''newbieness''. I played my ultramarines and my friend his IG against Death guard and night lords. I can't say the game was unbalanced in the end, or didnt seems like it. I made error, but I learned a lot.

Yesterday I played my second game, and....wow...If it was my first game, I would have sold my armies on eBay! Those two guys were really nice (fun to chat with, etc), but they play very competitively, to the point it wasnt fun at all.

My friend is really nice as a player. He explained to me that the IG can be very annoying to play against (lots of psykers, tanks, etc) but he choose to play friendly list for casual play. He warned me that sometimes you can meet WAAC players, building tournament list even for friendly game and even against weak list or new opponents. He told me that they sometimes dont even realise they are not fun to play against. Ok, I was warned. I didnt expect it to be as cruel as it sounds.

We play Ultramarines and IG (1500 each). Only 2 psykers. The two other players played Nids and Tzeentch...with something like 12 psykers, if not more. They litterally anihilated everything on the map. What can you do against Nids smiting at 24'' (!!!) and destroying all our vehicles and squads? It seems to me the stratagems of Nids are much more powerful than my ultramarines one. He can shoot twice (he anihilated two squad of primaris by shooting 2 times 90 dice....90 dice? LOL...and he insisted to throw them), he can make my cover dissapeared for the rest of the game for only 2 CP, etc. The nids player got something like 12 or 14 CP also.

They won the first turn...with the nids having way more models than both of us together. The game was ridiculous. Two predators /smite /stratagems literally destroyed half our army on turn one. After that it was just basically them playing. Impossible for us to move because of the situation and the map (they had so many deep strike unit also). Nids were very hard to kill (so many bonuses), and we suffered too many mortal wounds...almost all my ultramarines were killed by smite but one squad.

Supposedly the NIDS are terrifying in close combat....but they wipe us out without a single close combat! I had a unit of 8 reivers in DS, and I didnt bring them in the end. I know what was going to happenned to them....smited.

I was very dissapointed, as I was unable to see what my army can do, except my hellbasters (5 guys almost killed one predator). I didnt even feel like It was my fault, just seems to me the game was impossible to win from the beginning. Basically they have 3 phases for damage (the psychic phase with 12+ psykers -the worst-, the shooting phase, the close combat phase) and we only get two (our 2 psykers cant do much damage during the psychic phase).

One of them feels a bit of compassion, told me he lost 15 games in a row when he started to play 40k, and now he know how to build a good list and win. This advice was nice, but makes me afraid: do I have to play like them to have fun with most of 40k players and survive more than 2 turns? i was expecting the casual community to be much more like the 2 guys I played against the first time, or like my friend with his IG.

I dont want to build an army of librarians with Roboute. I want to play a fun and versatile army, I want to play different kind marines/vehicles, not an ultimate list or two.

How can you learn to play tennis if you play against Raf Nadal playing like it is Wimbledon?

Since I dont know much about armies and list yet, I will ask next time about it: do you play 12+ psykers? Do you play Magnus or very powerful characters?

We should have change the team, Space marines + Nids against Tzenntch +IG ....to balance the psychic phase.

Since Im a newbie, which kind of armies I should ask to fight against to LEARN the game, not be annihilated? Which questions should I ask to guess which kind of players I would play against? Cause before the game they said to me they only play for fun, not to anihilated the other players.

Sorry for my english!

Can we get some actual army lists? It sounds like you didn't have Scouts or your friend didn't have Infantry spam to protect your armies from the assault / smite. You don't have to be a win at all costs player, you just have to understand what other armies are capable of and plan accordingly. If you had some buffer units in front of your army you would have weathered the storm.

two squads of sniper scouts (one was killed at turn one)+miss. launcher, thelion, one 5 squads of intercessors, squad of 5 hellblasters, one gravis captain, one chaplain, one apothecary, one repulsor that did good, wiped a nids squad but was smited like a squad of gretchin. One ancient. squad of 8 reivers that I didnt bring on the map finally. For me I wanted a balance list, anti-veh, anti-troop, etc. I didnt know the psykers are so powerful in this edition. For me the psychic phase was just a little bonus phase to buff or do a bit of damage....didnt expect it to lost 90% of my guys during psychic phases.

My friend play his casual list: some tanks, but only one psykers. Guards, no conscript.

The nids got like 20+ guys T3 with 90 dice and buffed by some flying brains...they were very very hard to kill in the end. A lot of troops.

Tzeentch play little flame and blue demons, lots of marines with psykers, ahriman, two predators.

Both of them did a lots, a lots of mortal wounds. Seems like my marines were fighting naked!

Sorry I didnt look at their list before playing. It was just a game for fun...next time I would check that first and see how to balance the game (changing teamates for example).

did they use degrading smite from the new Chapter approved? that may help.

Sounds like the nids were using termagants armed with devourers (devilgaunts), and zoanthropes (the floating brains).

The devilgaunts have nasty firepower, but are a glass cannon. Point for point, they are one of the most fragile units in the game. T3 6+ at 8 points per model. The guns have an 18" range, so they are usually deployed by deepstrike (via a drop pod, or trygon), as otherwise they take too many casualties before getting into effective range.

In short, yes they hurt like hell, but once you get to respond they will die in droves. They are also quite bad in close combat (guardsman statlines), and getting them stuck in combat is the best way to stop them from shooting you.



Zoanthropes have a buffed smite (the 24" range you mentioned). But a minimum sized unit is 120 points for that one smite. They don't really do much else aside from cast psychic powers. No shooting attacks, and complete rubbish in close combat. They do have a decent invulnerable save, making them kinda hard to kill.

If there are more than 3 zoanthropes in a unit, the smite gets an additional D3 added to the damage, becoming a flat 3 if the unit is maxed out at 6 models. So just shoot each unit down to 3 models before moving on to the next.

Standard anti-smite tactics are to put your cheap units at the front, because smite can only target the closest enemy.

 DoctorPhil wrote:

Since Im a newbie, which kind of armies I should ask to fight against to LEARN the game, not be annihilated? Which questions should I ask to guess which kind of players I would play against? Cause before the game they said to me they only play for fun, not to anihilated the other players.
Sorry for my english!

40k ultimately is what you make of it. If you cheese it out or push it to its limits and aren't careful, you can easily end up with your game two, unless you cheese it out or push it to the limits as well. there are probably a handful of lists that can play at that level (it's a lonely place at the top of the mountain...) and you've already stated you don't want to go there, which is perfectly fair.

The alternative is not to go there. 40k can be problematic, but generally speaking, works best when (a) you don't push it to its limits and (b) most importantly, when you play with like minded individuals. This requires the 'negotiation phase' which is essentially socialising with and talking to, and getting to know your peers in your local community. As you say, 'I play for fun' can range from a guy with a half company of primaris, to a guy who only takes ten psykers and guliman, when he could have taken twelve. Easiest thing is to either play them, see the actual lists they play, or straight up not leave it up to them, and instead be proactive and tell them what kind of lists you play, and what kind of lists you want to play against, and if they can match up, if they're willing to match up, or if they know other folks who are into the same kind of games/lists as you. Just because you don't end up facing off against them doesn't mean you can't be polite and friendly and be a part of the same community. There's nothing wrong with saying 'hmm, that's not the kind of game I'm looking for, but cheers anyway.'

If you're getting into the edition jumping in to a 3000 point team game is unwise.

You're going to see a ton of tricks and synergies that aren't normally balanced. For example, Nids can't take the allies you described.

Speaking as someone who has Nids & Ultramarines collections, i would recommend having small games to get used to how the edition plays and growing from there.

Do 500 points vs 500 points on a 4'x4' mat to start.

Thanks for your help.

No degrading smite. But wow, I will not play against a psyker armies until there is something preventing this. I only got some squad of 5 marines each, they are expensive and easy to killed with smite.

I understand the tactic of putting cheap units in front to be smited, but I play marines, I dont see many cheap units. We played on the large side of the map, so they get a lot of our stuff at smite distance very quickly.

Also, there was like so many t3 unit, that I can only kill some.....but they got so many units that they shoot a lot more than us. Statistically, it was very hard to move or shoot or survived.

I dont care about a lot of smite, but why mortal wounds? D6 mortal wounds? really? why not ''6'' are mortal wounds? They were quite lucky on rolls also...resulting in a massacre....or a genocide...cause we only killed 3 rubrics an a couple of nids...

we also played a mission with -1 if above 18''. So shooting phase was difficult to get kills, but psychic phase not. Plus, Im a newbie, only my second game, this didnt help at all. I was even expecting them to not cast all their smite, to move instead of shooting to kill, to let us play a little (as it was clear after turn 1 that they would win the game easily and could crush us in 2 turns)...after turn 2 it was basically 1 figurines for 10. I almost quit, but the other players ask us to continue for the honor. Apart one squad of nids and some guards, nobody really move....was just smite+shooting right away. Very boring....especially since the nids take a very long time to play, so many figurines and so many dice rolls.

Anyway, I will play next week also, will try different players/armies.

I dont care to lost my next 20 games....but I want to be able to play! I want to see movement also. My friend told me that I will experience WAAC games only once out of 20 games and to not jump on the ''I-want-a-tourney-list'', so Im hopeful. I could have put a lot of cheapest librarians and squads of hellblasters+ roboute with my friends listing a lots of psykers and conscript and some powerful tanks. But Im not sure I want to do this really.

Also, 3k vs 3k was not helping, since the first turn can be terrifying, especially when you start in shooting range. And you can list a lot of psykers. 2k vs 2k would be better I think.

You will get games in 8th where you loose on the first turn especially if you go up against and optimised tourney themed army and even more so if your opponent is experienced.

don't loose heart or feel you need to play the arms race with your army. Its just one bad experience and we all have them, it can be really frustrating and disheartening.

i'd make it clear when you arrange a game you are looking for a non-competitive balanced fun game... my experience is people are quite accommodating to that. I wont take 12 obilterators, abaddon and a knight to my local club night unless me and my opponent want a hardcore game or are prepping for a tourney.

Also smite spam is a big competitive thing at the minute, which is one of the reasons GW recently released some beta testing rules which tone it down.

end of the day even a massive loss is a learning experience and the worst losses are the ones where you 'feel' like you could not of done anything better. In a lot of cases you probably could of, often it comes down to how you deployed. If not though as above you most likely had mis matched lists which is 40k... it aint chess.

also also just noticed you played doubles 3k on what a 6ft by 4ft.... yea... this moves the game away from tactical movement to who packs the biggest punch and the fact your opponents were nids and thousand sons compounds this further as they are not designed to play together at all.

All I can say is that your experience with 40K is entirely based on who you play with. The game is more "open" than ever and has been done so to promote the sale of models. The knock-on effect of this is that crazy spammy armies are possible even in "casual" game settings. It's just as breakable as normal 40K has always been.

I disliked 40K so much I got out around 3rd-4th transition and hated it through 7th, refusing to play. I play 8th now, but again only with a handful of select players who have similar interests as I do --- so our games are normally pretty balanced and fun. We simply don't take cheesy lists which will remove the enjoyment from the other player.

All I can say is good luck finding other players beyond those you've played.

Beyond what anyone else on here says, if you don't even know what you are going up against and what it does, you will get destroyed pretty easily. A lot of 40k revolves around correct target priority at the right moments. If you have no clue what you're up again and what they do, then you have no possible way of accomplishing correct target priority. This is just where experience reigns supreme. If you are inexperienced, then you will likely get destroyed by experienced players, even if they run suboptimal lists.

First, Welcome to Dakka, and back to the hobby.

40k has always been easy to break, The best games are when you and your opponent are on the same page of how competitive you want to be. You are a new player playing a fun list, and it sounded like you were up against something a lot nastier.

And some lists are going to have bad match ups regardless. With so many factions there is always going to be a little rock/paper/scissors going on.

Keep at it, learn from your mistakes, and adjust your list when you can.

I think the two biggest lessons to learn about 8th are screens/unit placement, and buffs and synergies. But there are lots of other little tips and tricks you will pick up as you play.

Courage and Honor!

Hoodwink wrote:
Beyond what anyone else on here says, if you don't even know what you are going up against and what it does, you will get destroyed pretty easily. A lot of 40k revolves around correct target priority at the right moments. If you have no clue what you're up again and what they do, then you have no possible way of accomplishing correct target priority. This is just where experience reigns supreme. If you are inexperienced, then you will likely get destroyed by experienced players, even if they run suboptimal lists.

yes also this 100%. Next time you face nids and you see zoanthropes you know whats coming which is a million fold better position to be in than facing them blind.
I have a deathguard unit that can chuck 10d6 grenade shots that can deal out 2 damage each and mortal wounds... in a tourney i expect my opponent to know this tactic and react to it from turn one. In a friendly setting its not obvious what the unit can do so i'll make a clear point to tell my opponent what everything does.

Also don't be scared to ask what stuff does or ask what's scary in an opponents list... they'll normally let you know (even in a cash prize tournament i experience this, both asking and being asked... i wont just say 'oh this is a biologus putrifer you dont what it does huh? tough luck buddy')

Have you considered taking a small imperial guard detachment of your own for your army? Unlike 3rd edition you can easily and legally add a detachment of guard to your marine army to help mitigate the weakness of the primaris.

Hq- 2 primaris psycher
Elite - 2 astropaths
Troops - 3 squads of 10 guardsmen, just normal for points sake.

Ran cheap that's 285 points for 3 groups of 10 for bodyguard duty and 4 psychers for deny the witch tests. I know some players like to keep their armies pure as in "from one book" but if your looking for a cheap shield option to help your army I can not think of a better one. And that gets you 3 command points as well.

You should play more than two games before you throw your hands into the air.

Daedalus81 wrote:
You should play more than two games before you throw your hands into the air.

personally my rule is 10 games, and at least 3 different armies (if practical) to really decide if I like a game or not. Why 10? gets through the "beginner's luck/badluck" and lets me see more options and styles.

Well, I wouldn't call your game 2 list "top tier" but it's obviously trying to be so it's "competitive". Now you've seen what happens when there's a mismatch of expectations.

Best thing to do is to just make sure you and your opponent know what type of match you both want and are agreeing to. Who knows; maybe one day you'll want to field a competitive list yourself!

I'm sorry to hear that. I've had some similar experiences this edition, and simply stopped playing against one person because it wasn't enjoyable.


However, there are some things that are very important that many people do wrong.

1. Terrain. Without a good diversity of terrain and the right amount, the game generally doesn't work at all. I aim to have roughly one pieces of terrain per square foot. That means a normal table has 24 pieces of terrain, of various types.
2. Follow the terrain deployment rules and play for objectives. Too often I see people who want to just "setup a cool map" and use the old standby of "your side and my side." If you follow the actual deployment rules, the game works MUCH BETTER. That means setting up terrain prior to determining who is on which side. It also means setting up objectives prior to choosing deployment options.
3. Play with good people who want everyone to have fun. Playing with a jerk is going to be unpleasant no matter what game you play.

 DoctorPhil wrote:

I understand the tactic of putting cheap units in front to be smited, but I play marines, I dont see many cheap units.

Scouts, IG allies. 40k has moved far away from age of single faction armies. If you can have allies you likely are leaking strenght not having. Marines in particular suffer from elite stats generally not being that good in 8th ed. That's why most powerful imperium armies don't tend to be mono-armies but imperial soup with some marines and IG, maybe other stuff as well. But company commander(30) and couple squads of IG troopers(40-60 pts per squad) would go long way.

If you build mono faction you need to think even harder of your army.

And yes don't play without the beta test smite rules(though thousand sons and tzeentch meanwhile gets screwed by that). Mortal wound spam is ridiculous thing in 8th ed so at least that helps a bit. Still not perfect but as long as GW is addicted to mortal wound concept like a drug user it never will.

Another tactic that's worth trying that doesn't involve very cheap units is having a less expensive tank or something else with many wounds out front and use the Armor of Contempt stratagem to gain a 5+ save against mortal wounds. It takes 5+ smites normally to get through just a rhino or a razorback, with the stratagem your opponent would have to succeed so many it'll be nearly impossible to kill, unless they can maneuver around the tank to get to something more valuable.

8th edition is set up to be over as fast as possible. Losing in turn one is not uncommon. The game being over by turn 3 at the latest is to be expected.

Second - if you're playing against competitive players and you want a good game, you only have one option: you have to build as powerful a list as they do. Which means the models you may like will probably be binned for models you may not care for but whose math is over powered.

You're pretty much cubby holed into building a certain type of list to enjoy the game.

ie - if they are playing grand tournament lists, you are also going to have to field grand tournament lists or don't bother showing up.

Once you have found a solid grand tournament list, you will need to play many games before you start getting the hang out of the patterns. A lot more than two games at the very least.

Good luck.

40k can be sometimes frustrating for new players. As you said, after 20 games you should have mastered the game in a way that you can win against a casual player. Tournament players are another species who have developed a tunnel view which amounts to all or nothing.
Both of your armies should be viable, especially UM. As a rule of thumb, your army should be able to deal with tanks and monster (40% of the army composition), infantry (20%), and agility (20%).

As others have said, it’s just a matter of being on the same page as the people you’re playing against. There’s nothing wrong with playing to win, but if that’s the game you’re into, you need to approach things in a very different way to if you’re playing to have a fun, collaborative experience. It seems the vast majority of conflicts over, and issues with enjoyment of, 40K stem from a lack of communication over what experience people are looking for. If I were you, I wouldn’t be put off, but would chalk this up as a learning experience. Maybe what you take away from it is retooling your list to deal with a more competitive dynamic; maybe it’s that you don’t want to play with those guys again. Ultimately that’s a decision for you to make though.

Fight fire with fire! Malfic Lord spam.....

Oh, CA stopped that. Damnit!

Sadly Rowboat is nigh on an auto-include in order to be mildly competitive from what I understand. He synergises very well with Ultras.

Funnily, I have never faced him but yet again I don't get nearly as much hobby time as I would like.

 thekingofkings wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
You should play more than two games before you throw your hands into the air.

personally my rule is 10 games, and at least 3 different armies (if practical) to really decide if I like a game or not. Why 10? gets through the "beginner's luck/badluck" and lets me see more options and styles.

I just got my 10th game in last night. I lost again. So far in 8th I've had 1 victory and it was barely. I still feel good about the game as I've been trying new tactics. I've learned a ton since coming here to Dakka. We'll see how the next 10 games go. I'm hoping to start picking up some good wins soon. That death guard army is nasty, I'm hoping that next league night I go to I can play against someone else.

Honestly, getting overwhelmed with enemy psykers is pretty frustrating. Especially as Chaos and Nids seem to have so many. Almost makes me want to have a nucleus of like 2-4 Culexus Assassins with Inquisitor Greyfax and a few of the Grey Knight characters to blunt as much as they can. Greyfax because she's pretty cheap, gets 2 Deny checks at +1. Combined with the -2 the assassins bring to the table, she's and whoever else is with her can shut down quite a bit. Not perfect protection, but about as solid as you can get.

Echoing know what you are getting in to. I years ago got in the habit of bringing the models for and 3 premade lists. one competitive/ tournament power, one mid strength, and one weak/ fun lists with no repeat units. I honestly prefer the letter lists seeing a ton of well painted models on the board makes me happy, but when somebody is looking for a game they usually will be honest how powerful their stuff is. though some of the waac types will say mid power and bring optimized tournament lists (they are the minority in my meta but exist) my biggest suggestion is let them know you are looking for low powered beginner games as you are very new and most gamers I know would oblige the low power request and be trying to teach you and help you along. alternatively find ork and tau players to go against, currently both armies are dumpster fires and their only options are low power.

It's worth pointing out there's not amazing balance amongst armies in even casual games.

 Marmatag wrote:
If you're getting into the edition jumping in to a 3000 point team game is unwise.

You're going to see a ton of tricks and synergies that aren't normally balanced. For example, Nids can't take the allies you described.

Speaking as someone who has Nids & Ultramarines collections, i would recommend having small games to get used to how the edition plays and growing from there.

Do 500 points vs 500 points on a 4'x4' mat to start.

Agreed. I understand it was a friendly game but as said Nids taking those allies sounds weird. It also sounds like your opponents took advantage of two new players. They should have agreed to stagger players. And I also agree with playing smaller point games until you understand the game mechanics more.