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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





yeah I can disagree, especially since the phrase here is disproportionate. having more money does not make it disproportionate. the argument is that there is an unjust distribution.
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 Khornate25 wrote:

When I look at history books covering the post WW2 period, everything that happened after seems so bright and easy. Most of my former senior colleagues (when I was a teacher) tell me that it was easier back in their days. Are our societies, in the Western World, seeing the end of a Golden Age ? If yes, what is there left for us ? Wherever I look, all I can see is disease, stupidity, ugliness, mediocrity and no chance for a better future. Is this it ? Is this the life we will live ? In mediocrity ? If yes, what is the point ?


I was going to type something sarky and snappy. But then I reconsidered, because the main thing I get from your post is that you sound kinda depressed. And I can understand why, it's an uncertain time, the balance of power is shifting unpredictably in the world, and you're worried for the future.

Here's my suggestions to improve your outlook a bit:

Identify the causes you care about. Then do something about them. Volunteer for a charity. Donate to a cause you support, or do a sponsored event where you go hiking or parachute from a plane or take a bath in baked beans. Rally support for a political cause you think will make a difference. Do something other than fret and worry on the Internet, where you'll just meet other fretters and angry people. You're probably not someone with the power to change the world solo, so change a bit of it into something you like more, and trust that other people are also making an effort. If you look at global issues, of course you'll be daunted and confused, so work on a human scale.

Stop watching the news. Think about it like this, how many news stories in the last year did you really NEED to know about? As in, you personally would have suffered if you hadn't had that information within hours of it occurring? News is the business of anxiety, designed to focus around sensationalism and getting people angry, and social media has amped that up to 11. Here's another experiment, look up some papers from 10 or 20 years ago, and count the number of doomsday stories, grim predictions about the future or crises erupting in foreign countries. Then, check how they were actually resolved, or if the disasters actually happened. News is only interested in crises, and seldom follows up to say "Actually, it turns out that doesn't cause cancer." or "Actually, the war wound down, and the country is recovering well."

Try meditation. Taking ten minutes at the end of each day to flush out all the noise and static from my mind has really helped me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/23 22:31:04


"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Luciferian wrote:
It also doesn't exist within a government that engages in selective protectionism and anti-competitive market practices.


Private ownership of property for the sake of generating profit is very much possible under those circumstances. It's quite handy for capitalists if they can reach such an arrangement.


Capitalism is not competition or barter. It's a specific set of relationships to the means of production and commodities.


 Luciferian wrote:
Rosebuddy wrote:



Every single socialist country has been marked for destruction by the capitalist powers. Every single socialist country has been marked for death squads, assassinations, invasions, bombings, sanctions and sabotage.


The defence that socialism has is that it, unlike capitalism, does not discourage the reproduction of the species.


Now that's no true Scotsman.


Regardless of the truth of what I said, that is not a No True Scotsman fallacy. If you can't or don't want to argue a point then just don't post. If you object on ideological grounds then please have the guts to just say so. Dismiss my posts with courage or don't say anything at all.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






You made an unsupported, unverifiable claim about an all-encompassing global conspiracy on behalf of capitalists to make socialism fail every time it is attempted. Since it's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, the onus is not on me to do so. Also, I thought it was pretty clear that I object on ideological grounds and I didn't think I would have to spell that out.

You literally said that every single socialist economy that has ever been attempted failed or was destroyed as a result of outside influence, therefore no previously existing socialist economy can be judged on its own merits. That's about as no true Scotsman as it gets.

 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 thekingofkings wrote:
yeah I can disagree, especially since the phrase here is disproportionate. having more money does not make it disproportionate. the argument is that there is an unjust distribution.


Some may consider it unjust, but again thats opinion, disproportionate again has no other meaning that too large or too small compared to something else, this is that, a small amount of people own most of the wealth, that is by its very definition disproportionate.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 thekingofkings wrote:
yeah I can disagree, especially since the phrase here is disproportionate. having more money does not make it disproportionate. the argument is that there is an unjust distribution.


No it wasn't. The word "disproportionate" was not used in the original mention, you're making that part up. You originally said that wealth inequality doesn't exist (an easily-disproved false statement), then the word "massive" was attached to it (pretty easily proved to be true). None of that requires the moral judgement that you're trying to apply to the situation, it's simply a matter of numbers.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
yeah I can disagree, especially since the phrase here is disproportionate. having more money does not make it disproportionate. the argument is that there is an unjust distribution.


No it wasn't. The word "disproportionate" was not used in the original mention, you're making that part up. You originally said that wealth inequality doesn't exist (an easily-disproved false statement), then the word "massive" was attached to it (pretty easily proved to be true). None of that requires the moral judgement that you're trying to apply to the situation, it's simply a matter of numbers.


semantic all you want, i stand by that this "inequality" is bs for exactly the reason I stated, the implication behind the "inequality" is that its unjust and that is just not true.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 thekingofkings wrote:
semantic all you want, i stand by that this "inequality" is bs for exactly the reason I stated, the implication behind the "inequality" is that its unjust and that is just not true.


IOW, just make stuff up and declare everyone else to be wrong because you know better than they do what they said. Wealth inequality is indisputable fact, whether you like it or not. Whether or not you believe it to be unjust is an entirely separate question.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
semantic all you want, i stand by that this "inequality" is bs for exactly the reason I stated, the implication behind the "inequality" is that its unjust and that is just not true.


IOW, just make stuff up and declare everyone else to be wrong because you know better than they do what they said. Wealth inequality is indisputable fact, whether you like it or not. Whether or not you believe it to be unjust is an entirely separate question.


what i am trying to get across is its not "inequality" as its used by you leftists to justify the theft of wealth that belongs to others, simply because you want it. so no I do not believe in it, it is bs.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 thekingofkings wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
yeah I can disagree, especially since the phrase here is disproportionate. having more money does not make it disproportionate. the argument is that there is an unjust distribution.


No it wasn't. The word "disproportionate" was not used in the original mention, you're making that part up. You originally said that wealth inequality doesn't exist (an easily-disproved false statement), then the word "massive" was attached to it (pretty easily proved to be true). None of that requires the moral judgement that you're trying to apply to the situation, it's simply a matter of numbers.


semantic all you want, i stand by that this "inequality" is bs for exactly the reason I stated, the implication behind the "inequality" is that its unjust and that is just not true.



Again, opinion doesn't factor in, if one side has a disproportionate amount more, to the extent that it could wipe out the debt of the 90%, then it is also by definition, unequal, this is not semantics, this is cold hard maths.

Whether or not it is just is up to the individual and by extension the governments they elect and further, the morals governing the majority, and by these standards in this day and age it is unjust, go back to the 80's "greed is good" mentality and it's not, but that's a moot point at the end of the day, as capitalism will lead to its own downfall, then one of two things will happen, the 1% wins and status quo will continue (possibly in a different manner) or the 99% will win and things will change drastically (possibly leading to the same issue arising again in the future), history has taught us that if you are perceived (rightly or wrongly) to abuse the people too much, eventually they push back, which is good for no one.
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

The wealthy are the ones with the power to influence politicians and lobby governments, and they encourage policies that suit themselves only. This is why wealth and power are increasingly consolidated into a minority.

I wonder if someone refusing that inequality of this manner is unjust has experienced real poverty and exploitation caused by the more wealthy. This thread smacks of an ‘I’m alright jack’ attitude. It’s easy to sneer and tell others to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when you’ve not had to start from similar circumstances. Behind all the BS about self made people who bought their own house young and put themselves through college, etc, you have a family member lending them large amounts of money. Very very few actually start with nothing and achieve greatly, poverty limits access to education and healthcare, immediately limiting your options, but I guess these people just deserve burger flipping wages. If they don’t like it they should have been born to a wealthier family.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 thekingofkings wrote:
what i am trying to get across is its not "inequality" as its used by you leftists to justify the theft of wealth that belongs to others, simply because you want it. so no I do not believe in it, it is bs.


This is not something you get to have an opinion on, or get to disbelieve. It's indisputable fact when you look at the numbers. Any moral judgement you want to apply to the term "inequality" is your problem, not mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the idea that taxation/socialism/etc are "theft of wealth that belongs to others" is completely absurd. Taxation is a fundamental part of every modern society. You pay some fraction of your wealth for the collective good, a belief that is universal across every relevant political party.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/24 02:53:11


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Peregrine wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
what i am trying to get across is its not "inequality" as its used by you leftists to justify the theft of wealth that belongs to others, simply because you want it. so no I do not believe in it, it is bs.


This is not something you get to have an opinion on, or get to disbelieve. It's indisputable fact when you look at the numbers. Any moral judgement you want to apply to the term "inequality" is your problem, not mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the idea that taxation/socialism/etc are "theft of wealth that belongs to others" is completely absurd. Taxation is a fundamental part of every modern society. You pay some fraction of your wealth for the collective good, a belief that is universal across every relevant political party.


they already pay the taxes agreed upon by law, it doesnt matter how much they have, its theirs, they didnt steal it from us. You dont get to arbitrarily take even more just becuase you want to. this is nothing more than a power grab using "equality" to justify it.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 thekingofkings wrote:
they already pay the taxes agreed upon by law


And those laws change. Sometimes tax rates go up, sometimes tax rates go down. You seem to be thinking of some bizarre alternate world, where paying your 2017 taxes at X% of your income means that you are guaranteed that taxes will never exceed X%.

You dont get to arbitrarily take even more just becuase you want to.


There's nothing arbitrary about it, only a decision that the collective investment in the good of the country should be larger than it currently is. Raising taxes to help the poor is no different in concept from raising taxes to fund the military, or build a new football stadium, or whatever else the government (as directed by the voters) decides it wants to do. And in any of those cases you either pay your taxes, or go to prison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it doesnt matter how much they have, its theirs, they didnt steal it from us.


I'll ignore the morally-loaded language of "steal" and simply point out that the wealthy did not magically get their wealth out of nothing. They benefited from the collective efforts of society in things like roads, schools, etc. They often have their wealth protected by things like IP law or exclusive contracts, where the government bans anyone else from competing with them and/or guarantees a certain level of profit. They often benefit from the government using taxpayer money to cover their losses, as in the bank bailouts. They often find their labor costs reduced by government laws interfering in the free market and making certain union activities, which often lead to higher wages, illegal and/or ineffective. Etc. They may not have "stolen" that wealth, but they certainly do depend on the rest of society to get it. Socialism is merely recognition of the same principle that creates public roads, schools, police, etc: that the wealthy gain the benefits of society, and have an obligation to pay for it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/24 03:08:44


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 thekingofkings wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
what i am trying to get across is its not "inequality" as its used by you leftists to justify the theft of wealth that belongs to others, simply because you want it. so no I do not believe in it, it is bs.


This is not something you get to have an opinion on, or get to disbelieve. It's indisputable fact when you look at the numbers. Any moral judgement you want to apply to the term "inequality" is your problem, not mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the idea that taxation/socialism/etc are "theft of wealth that belongs to others" is completely absurd. Taxation is a fundamental part of every modern society. You pay some fraction of your wealth for the collective good, a belief that is universal across every relevant political party.


they already pay the taxes agreed upon by law, it doesnt matter how much they have, its theirs, they didnt steal it from us. You dont get to arbitrarily take even more just becuase you want to. this is nothing more than a power grab using "equality" to justify it.



"They didn't steal it"

Again this is not true, how many of your CEO's went to prison for causing the world wide recession? How many people lost there homes and livihood due to the actions of these people? Have any of them been held accountable ?

Do you understand that your corrupt system is directly responsible for the plight of millions, don't talk about justification when a lot of People have genuine justification for wanting more equality, there is a genuine ingrained issue in our whole systems of government in the west (obviously not just us) that needs sorting out, every facet of our financial systems, democratic systems and legal systems, a balance need to be redressed, this doesn't neasarily mean taking from the 1%, but it does mean severely restricting there impact on our systems, it should be proportional and 1% should not have more power than 99%, its financial apartheid, which even the most die hard republican/democrat/labour/conservative can agree is morally wrong.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 thekingofkings wrote:


they already pay the taxes agreed upon by law, it doesnt matter how much they have, its theirs, they didnt steal it from us. You dont get to arbitrarily take even more just becuase you want to. this is nothing more than a power grab using "equality" to justify it.


I think you you would get along with andrey rian very well... You are not by any chance interessted in a property in rapture?
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

If socialism is defined as public ownership of the means of production, there are no socialist countries in Europe.

However, most European countries are more or less social democracies, with a higher degree of government provision of services than you find in the USA.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





There is an almost Pavlovian reaction in some people when social democracies are mentioned.
It goes something like; social = socialist = communist = evil.

It would be fun if it wasn't so sad.

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 thekingofkings wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
what i am trying to get across is its not "inequality" as its used by you leftists to justify the theft of wealth that belongs to others, simply because you want it. so no I do not believe in it, it is bs.


This is not something you get to have an opinion on, or get to disbelieve. It's indisputable fact when you look at the numbers. Any moral judgement you want to apply to the term "inequality" is your problem, not mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the idea that taxation/socialism/etc are "theft of wealth that belongs to others" is completely absurd. Taxation is a fundamental part of every modern society. You pay some fraction of your wealth for the collective good, a belief that is universal across every relevant political party.


they already pay the taxes agreed upon by law, it doesnt matter how much they have, its theirs, they didnt steal it from us. You dont get to arbitrarily take even more just becuase you want to. this is nothing more than a power grab using "equality" to justify it.

Now that is something that is very much disputable and a matter of opinion. Something that is gained by exploitation is very much equal to theft in my opinion. And you can't just assume that everyone who is for equality actually just wants to seize power. There is nothing wrong with being cynical, and there will always be those that seek to abuse others to further their own gains, but that is just being cynical to the point of stupidity. There are plenty of people who do not seek power but who genuinely want more equality.
And even if people do use equality as just a power grab, that is nothing different from what capitalism is. The difference is that in socialism you need an excuse to abuse others for your own gain, while in capitalism such abuse is normal and even lauded.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






 thekingofkings wrote:


they already pay the taxes agreed upon by law,


The Panama Papers would like a word about that. The wealthy are VERY good at tax evasion, and have the influence on government to enable even more tax evasion.

it doesnt matter how much they have, its theirs, they didnt steal it from us.


Depends on your definition of 'steal'. For example, just recently, it came out that Loblaws (a grocery store in Canada) has colluded with bakeries to manipulate the price of - get this - loaves of bread. From 2005 to 2014, everyone was paying far more for bread than they should have. The oil and gas industry has REDUCED the number of refineries, year on year, to artificially boost the price of gasoline (less supply, more demand, price goes up!), because they're not competing. A barrel of oil is far cheaper than it was 5-6 years ago, but the price of gas has barely gone down. Never mind that oil should never have been that expensive, because rich oil speculators drove the price up artificially and the USA has so much oil in reserves that it's saving for the day the rest of the world runs out (capped wells). You pay more for gas because the rich oil barons are effectively hoarding oil and manipulating the supply of refined oil - they ARE STEALING FROM US. It's just the tip of the iceberg.

The rich are doing a lot of things that are illegal, but they have so many friends in government that no one is stopping them.


   
Made in ca
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Kapuskasing, ON

Steelmage99 wrote:
There is an almost Pavlovian reaction in some people when social democracies are mentioned.
It goes something like; social = socialist = communist = evil.

It would be fun if it wasn't so sad.


There's only real world examples to use. The socialist civilisation that Marxist envisioned was one that evolved naturally from a capitalist society when it reaches some threshold of technological advancement. So far each attempt was a forced attempt, not a natural one. The impatience of some interpret Marxist writing to be "Now and by my hand". Which seems to keep turning into an authoritarian dictatorship since it's forcefully imposed. If Marxist is right in hi's vision then the world will have to wait, it's not ready yet.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Luciferian wrote:
And you only get to the famine part if you're lucky enough to make it through the purges and genocides that usually accompany the Glorious Revolution.


Compared to the purges and genocide that happened/are happening right now in the name of capitalism? Been to Brazil or Peru recently? Colombia?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thekingofkings wrote:
they didnt steal it from us.


They stole it from somebody. Whether by butchering villages in South America, or by stealing land rights from Native Americans, or the use of slavery (either within the US before or Outside the US now), or ripping off smaller companies without the legal wherewithal to defend their rights, they stole it/are stealing it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/25 21:25:04



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thekingofkings wrote:
they didnt steal it from us.


They stole it from somebody. Whether by butchering villages in South America, or by stealing land rights from Native Americans, or the use of slavery (either within the US before or Outside the US now), or ripping off smaller companies without the legal wherewithal to defend their rights, they stole it/are stealing it.


empty rhetoric, I am sure your Facebook account did none of this, nor did twitter, starbucks, etc...
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
And you only get to the famine part if you're lucky enough to make it through the purges and genocides that usually accompany the Glorious Revolution.


Compared to the purges and genocide that happened/are happening right now in the name of capitalism? Been to Brazil or Peru recently? Colombia?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thekingofkings wrote:
they didnt steal it from us.


They stole it from somebody. Whether by butchering villages in South America, or by stealing land rights from Native Americans, or the use of slavery (either within the US before or Outside the US now), or ripping off smaller companies without the legal wherewithal to defend their rights, they stole it/are stealing it.



Don't forget the billions the bankers stole after they caused the financial crash, people lost there homes, jobs, some even lost there lives, and what happened? Nothing, across the western world next to no one was put in prison or had there assets seized to repay the loses, you know, the very things is peasants have happen to us if we do the same thing.... what do we call that
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 thekingofkings wrote:

empty rhetoric, I am sure your Facebook account did none of this, nor did twitter, starbucks, etc...


Facebook and Twitter both take money from people who have (and worse, by their own admission, including North Korea). Starbucks has been guilty of billions in tax evasion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/25 23:42:34



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Formosa wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
And you only get to the famine part if you're lucky enough to make it through the purges and genocides that usually accompany the Glorious Revolution.


Compared to the purges and genocide that happened/are happening right now in the name of capitalism? Been to Brazil or Peru recently? Colombia?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thekingofkings wrote:
they didnt steal it from us.


They stole it from somebody. Whether by butchering villages in South America, or by stealing land rights from Native Americans, or the use of slavery (either within the US before or Outside the US now), or ripping off smaller companies without the legal wherewithal to defend their rights, they stole it/are stealing it.



Don't forget the billions the bankers stole after they caused the financial crash, people lost there homes, jobs, some even lost there lives, and what happened? Nothing, across the western world next to no one was put in prison or had there assets seized to repay the loses, you know, the very things is peasants have happen to us if we do the same thing.... what do we call that


IIRC a grand total of like, 1 person went to jail, forget for what, but it wasn't directly because of the crash.

DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+


bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
 
   
Made in nl
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




Except, apparently, in Iceland where they did jail the bankers responsible for the crash
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






 thekingofkings wrote:

empty rhetoric, I am sure your Facebook account did none of this, nor did twitter, starbucks, etc...


A lot of these internet companies are all about selling your personal data. They are effectively stealing your privacy. They know where you live, who your friends are, what porn you surf for, what hobbies you have, what car you drive, where you vacation, and on and on.

Have you seen those Ancestry.com ads on TV? What a scam. They'll give you a general overview of your DNA's markers, and charge you for the privilege - and then they have your DNA effectively forever in their database to sell as they please.

As for Starbucks, who are they stealing from? For starters, their employees. With wages between $7.63 to $10.63, baristas aren't making a living wage. At top rate, they're barely above what's considered the poverty level for the USA. ($10.60). For a company with 2.88 billion in net income (i.e. after taxes and expenses), they can afford to pay better. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/sbux/financials

   
Made in nl
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




Their clients, too. The prices they charge for the drivel they call coffee which is is only drinkable due to the heart-attack-inducing amounts of sugar in it are nothing short of daylight robbery.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 John Prins wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:

empty rhetoric, I am sure your Facebook account did none of this, nor did twitter, starbucks, etc...


A lot of these internet companies are all about selling your personal data. They are effectively stealing your privacy. They know where you live, who your friends are, what porn you surf for, what hobbies you have, what car you drive, where you vacation, and on and on.

Have you seen those Ancestry.com ads on TV? What a scam. They'll give you a general overview of your DNA's markers, and charge you for the privilege - and then they have your DNA effectively forever in their database to sell as they please.

As for Starbucks, who are they stealing from? For starters, their employees. With wages between $7.63 to $10.63, baristas aren't making a living wage. At top rate, they're barely above what's considered the poverty level for the USA. ($10.60). For a company with 2.88 billion in net income (i.e. after taxes and expenses), they can afford to pay better. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/sbux/financials


They are not stealing your privacy and you agree by using their products that they can sell your information. Ancestry .com using publicly available information that anyone can get, they are charging you for their effort in providing it. Starbucks, like Mcdonalds and other traditionally low wage jobs are not for and never have been for a "living wage" they are meant for high school kids and whatnot to make some pocket cash, they are not careers and never intended to be.
   
 
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