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 andysonic1 wrote:
We spend all 7th complaining because units ignore or break the rules of the game, and we spend all 8th complaining that units don't ignore or break the rules of the game.

But the rules have changed this edition. Last edition having Invisibility, 2+/3++/5+++ was game breakingly infuriating because even if you got through all that, you still only did 1W. This edition, weapons do so much damage and things die so easy that armies need to have ways of ignoring or shrugging off a portion of the enemies fire if they want to survive past a turn 1 alpha strike.

 andysonic1 wrote:
We spend all 7th complaining because units ignore or break the rules of the game, and we spend all 8th complaining that units don't ignore or break the rules of the game.

I laughed way too hard at this - that's some cold, cold truth right there!

 Stumbling Snake wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
We spend all 7th complaining because units ignore or break the rules of the game, and we spend all 8th complaining that units don't ignore or break the rules of the game.

I laughed way too hard at this - that's some cold, cold truth right there!

Me too, it’s almost like the forum is composed of a multitude of disperate individuals with their own concerns and preferences...

I'd just like to talk about miniature design for a second and say that while the Beasts of Nurgle look as great as I thought they would, the other new Nurgle daemons look too cartoony. The GUO either has a smile that goes up to where its ears would be, or has the same cartoon BLARGHL-BLARGHL mouth as the last one. Not to mention neither of the two Heralds carry a grim element to them. The Beasts and Nurglings are supposed to be the silly ones, the Plaguebearers are supposed to be the scary ones, and the GUO was supposed to be a mixture of both. They've just painted everything with the silly brush and I don't like it.

Too late guys, codex is done. No one help daemons now. No FAQ, no any erratas)
We can hope for a best-case scenario - some monodex, like battle tomes in AOS.
But right now its just a boring codex.

Runka wrote:
Too late guys, codex is done. No one help daemons now. No FAQ, no any erratas)
We can hope for a best-case scenario - some monodex, like battle tomes in AOS.
But right now its just a boring codex.

Not quite;
"The Future of FAQs and Chapter Approved"
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/

1: Codex Errata
A couple of weeks after the release of every codex and Chapter Approved book, we’ll review all the questions and comments we’ve received to see if there’s a need for an errata. If that’s the case, we’ll get one out quick smartish! These will address any ambiguities or issues that might have cropped up, such as how new rules and Stratagems might interact in certain edge cases, or when there is a genuine error in one of the rules that stop it from functioning as intended.

AwesomeSauceGaming wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Do Demonic Loci effect Morty and Magnus? RAW seem to indicate so but RAI seem not?

They sure do, and moreover this appears to be intended. There’s a designers note about keywords affecting things in different armies. there’s all sorts of shenanigans to be had with the Daemon keyword after the codex releases.

Is there any confirmation of this? I've seen the designers note and it doesn't necessarily support this position. I'm not convinced that "Nurgle, Daemon" is the same as "Nurge Daemon".

Same with the Deep Strike stratagem, our only other comparison is Stealer Cults with Nid stratagems and they were explicitly told that stratagems were to be used on Nids and Nids only. Seems like they want to keep some things in one book?

So how do the powers stack up against each other so far in the book? Nurgle got a boost up and tzneetch got pushed down a bit, so are they roughly on par at this point? Slaanesh I assume is doing poorly, but how about khorne by comparison?

Khorne is outrageous in the couple of practice games I've played. If your opponent can't screen their whole army, skarbrand + a bomb (crushers or letters) murder their whole army.

urzaplanewalker wrote:
Khorne is outrageous in the couple of practice games I've played. If your opponent can't screen their whole army, skarbrand + a bomb (crushers or letters) murder their whole army.

Don't even need Skarbrand. The bomb itself is absurdly good.

 andysonic1 wrote:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
Khorne is outrageous in the couple of practice games I've played. If your opponent can't screen their whole army, skarbrand + a bomb (crushers or letters) murder their whole army.

Don't even need Skarbrand. The bomb itself is absurdly good.

Don't you need at least one Khorne character for the reroll charges locus

 backlash13 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
Khorne is outrageous in the couple of practice games I've played. If your opponent can't screen their whole army, skarbrand + a bomb (crushers or letters) murder their whole army.

Don't even need Skarbrand. The bomb itself is absurdly good.

Don't you need at least one Khorne character for the reroll charges locus

Just need an HQ within 6 inches of the edge of the bomb. A Deamon Prince or even a JuggerHerald moving up the board can easily get within range at the cost of 0 CP.

 backlash13 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
Khorne is outrageous in the couple of practice games I've played. If your opponent can't screen their whole army, skarbrand + a bomb (crushers or letters) murder their whole army.

Don't even need Skarbrand. The bomb itself is absurdly good.

Don't you need at least one Khorne character for the reroll charges locus

Technically, you don't have to deep strike the character, but just get it 6" from 1 model of the bomb. A herald on bloodcrusher or a DP with wings can normally make that happen with the bomb being 9" from enemy lines.

Yeah, with the DS stratagem Bloodletters should have gone up to 8 or 9 ppm.

A 30-man blob of 2+WS 2A and 5F models with -3AP per attack and 2D in 6+ to wound rolls, and a 5++ with the certainty of a charge don't should cost just 7ppm. Or maybe they should. It appears that in 8th for be viable in meele you need to be so OP that you delete anything you enter contact with.

It's just another alpha strike army thrown into the mix. This isn't a new concept. Bell of Lost Souls did a good write up on it and counters: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/40k-8th-editions-alpha-strike-problem-draft.html

It's unfortunate that most of the comments are people complaining about the game not being alternating activation and not, you know, strategies on how to shut down the alpha strike armies.

I think W40K needs what others game have done, like a 5-10% damage output nerf to literally everything in the game.

And then from that point continue balancing.

 andysonic1 wrote:
It's just another alpha strike army thrown into the mix. This isn't a new concept. Bell of Lost Souls did a good write up on it and counters: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/40k-8th-editions-alpha-strike-problem-draft.html

It's unfortunate that most of the comments are people complaining about the game not being alternating activation and not, you know, strategies on how to shut down the alpha strike armies.

Aye. I know a friend of mine that has the simple strategy of keeping a chimera filled with Arco flaggelants and priests in his spawn that just get out and wreck anything that tries to break into his gunline. A unit of 5 with 2 priests do something like 20d3 S5 attacks AND they have a 5++ AND they have zealot. So there's the Imperiums anti-CC alpha strike option.

There are absolutely counters to the melee alpha-strike. Just a couple cheap screening units can do that job if you deploy intelligently.

But most of the people I play against don't understand that, so...

urzaplanewalker wrote:
There are absolutely counters to the melee alpha-strike. Just a couple cheap screening units can do that job if you deploy intelligently.

But most of the people I play against don't understand that, so...

Then Khorne shall punish them for it.

 mrhappyface wrote:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
There are absolutely counters to the melee alpha-strike. Just a couple cheap screening units can do that job if you deploy intelligently.

But most of the people I play against don't understand that, so...

Then Khorne shall punish them for it.

And how!

Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

AwesomeSauceGaming wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Do Demonic Loci effect Morty and Magnus? RAW seem to indicate so but RAI seem not?

They sure do, and moreover this appears to be intended. There’s a designers note about keywords affecting things in different armies. there’s all sorts of shenanigans to be had with the Daemon keyword after the codex releases.

Is there any confirmation of this? I've seen the designers note and it doesn't necessarily support this position. I'm not convinced that "Nurgle, Daemon" is the same as "Nurge Daemon".

Same with the Deep Strike stratagem, our only other comparison is Stealer Cults with Nid stratagems and they were explicitly told that stratagems were to be used on Nids and Nids only. Seems like they want to keep some things in one book?

Yes, that is exactly what the designer's commentary says, how else do you want to read page 5, second column, first question of the designer's commentary? It literally says that possessed and the like benefit from the herald's aura if they are of the same mark of chaos as they are daemons.

For reasons unknown to me the nid stratagems only work for nids, this is true, but the DG errata made it clear that you can use stratagems cross codex if you have the correct keywords.

They changed the Nids stuff to not work on GSC because it would have been the entire army benefiting from Nids stratagems rather than a select few units.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
They changed the Nids stuff to not work on GSC because it would have been the entire army benefiting from Nids stratagems rather than a select few units.

That's fair. There are only really a hand-and-a-half full of CSM Daemon units and only a fraction of those are worth the time to buff with stratagems.

Stray thought: If you had six command points and some Khorne Possessed (and have unlocked both CSM and Daemons stratagems) you can make them fight three times in one fight phase. Hell, another two CP to deep strike them in, WHY NOT!?!? 20 Possessed with 3+/5+ charging in, two wounds each, D3 attacks. Nearby character to reroll the charge, make it a Herald for +1 strength. World Eaters for +1 attack, or Word Bearers for Warptime. feth it give them the +1 invul when they charge in so they survive all the overwatch too why don't you! Then just keep fighting and fighting and fighting, inching into the enemy deployment zone like the god damn cancer you are. Oh get a nearby Daemon Prince to reroll the ones to hit. Crimson Crown nearby too.

My brain hurts.

For those asking about the DS strategem and CSM, During the Daemon Codex dev commentary I asked specifically about the using the deep strike strategem on Heretic Astartes and they said yes you can use it provided the target unit has the Daemon keyword. They even brought up the Primarch situation too. I did however bring up the Kytan, haha.

I don't think it will get nerfed since there are some seriously powerful combos from other armies too. But honestly who knows. I (and a lot of others) have noticed a pendulum effect when I comes to nerfs (ie there have been some very bold adjustments in the past and there will likely be more).

In any case, clever deployment and use of screens (which people will be using in a competitive setting anyway) may straight up negate the strategem on a Daemon Primarch anyway. I am excited to see what happens and how it's received because you usually see one of the two extremes (it was junk and useless or omg it's super OP). Maybe we will see something in the middle?

I'm far too optimistic...

 Arachnofiend wrote:
They changed the Nids stuff to not work on GSC because it would have been the entire army benefiting from Nids stratagems rather than a select few units.

The issue was that they didn't want that 'style' of play through stratagem use to coincide with Genestealer Cults. The rules team mentioned this.

Also of note the entire GSC army does not benefit from their stratagems as there are still specific restrictions of use (character or psyker keyword for example), and only 15 of the 28 Tyranid stratagems could have been used directly by GSC units.

 buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

I have no problems with deepstriking, screens, etc... but I believe the damage output of the game is too high. You can see it, because shooting is so busted that the only way meele is viable is making meele units disproportionately OP. You can see it, because when you compare the "good" meele units between themselves, it all comes down to "the one that charges win".

 Galas wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

I have no problems with deepstriking, screens, etc... but I believe the damage output of the game is too high. You can see it, because shooting is so busted that the only way meele is viable is making meele units disproportionately OP. You can see it, because when you compare the "good" meele units between themselves, it all comes down to "the one that charges win".

I agree that the damage output is very high. It is pretty punishing to new players. The number of times that I've virtually won a game turn 1 without even a remotely strong army is staggering. However, I've found that with players of similar skill, a "proper amount" of terrain (aka having the ability to hide 100% of your army from opponent's stationary shooting from deployment zones), and ITC missions, the games are actually pretty close most of the time.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
For those asking about the DS strategem and CSM, During the Daemon Codex dev commentary I asked specifically about the using the deep strike strategem on Heretic Astartes and they said yes you can use it provided the target unit has the Daemon keyword. They even brought up the Primarch situation too. I did however bring up the Kytan, haha.

I don't think it will get nerfed since there are some seriously powerful combos from other armies too. But honestly who knows. I (and a lot of others) have noticed a pendulum effect when I comes to nerfs (ie there have been some very bold adjustments in the past and there will likely be more).

In any case, clever deployment and use of screens (which people will be using in a competitive setting anyway) may straight up negate the strategem on a Daemon Primarch anyway. I am excited to see what happens and how it's received because you usually see one of the two extremes (it was junk and useless or omg it's super OP). Maybe we will see something in the middle?

I'm far too optimistic...

I think your daemon primarchs come in on turn two, after your pink horror bomb has already cleared out the screen.

 buddha wrote:
Not using screens is idiotic in 8th not just for demons. DS Scions and Elysian, warptime anything CC (primarch, demon prince, berserks, etc.), tyranids, genestealer cult, BA deepstrike, and on and on ...

Demons adds another DS army but it's hardly game changing.

What do you do if your army doesn't have screens?