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That anti-fallback mechanic sounds pretty good.

You know how you guys took exception to my suggested Ironclad Dreadnought because it'd do half a knight's worth of damage?

Khorne Daemon Prince with Skullreaver vs. Knight

5 attacks, 4.861 hits, 4.320 wounds, 15.123 wounds on average.

That's not including the D3 mortal wounds from each 6 to wound you roll, that'd bring it up to15.512 wounds. This is on a 180 point T6 3+ 5++ Character that can Deep Strike and moves 8" and provides a force multiplier aura.

The Daemon Prince is more expensive, but is more mobile, provides rerolls to 1s to nearby units and can hide from enemy shooting due to being a Character. Oh, and he gets more attacks on the charge and provides reroll to charge distance to nearby Daemons. Oh and that's him not charging, he'd be getting more wounds otherwise.

Tell me again how my proposal is "ludicruously OP"?

Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."

See this? THIS is a creative solution to an obvious problem and it isn't broken.

Agreed. I like this suggestion much more. More fluffy, likely more useful.

Walrus - listen man, I get it, you're not happy with how your army is performing. I don't think the proper "fix" is to propose a doubling of melee damage to the majority of the force through their Chapter Tactic. That isn't what Chapter Tactics are supposed to be for. Your argument with regards "but Dreads have to get into combat to do anything" is kinda redundant and false. You could field an army of Dreads, some will make it into combat. They have guns that also do damage as they approach - something you've completely ignored. They are significantly better, point for point, than the Ork Deff Dread. Aren't there also Drop pods for Dreads so -actually- you don't HAVE to walk across the board?

You need to suggest a better, more balanced Chapter Tactic.

You've spent a lot of time going through all of the units that would benefit from this in a previous post in this topic. I would suggest you do the same again but this time go through the weaknesses of the units with regards the current meta and what you think needs to happen to make them better (without suggesting things that would encourage a player to take non-fluffy options). What is the issue with BT units? Are they not doing enough damage in melee? Is it to hordes? Armour? What are the problems exactly and what are more sensible ways to fix them?

Suggesting a buff "because everyone and their mother gets it" (Khorne Daemons get it as a loci around characters only if they take a pure Khorne detachment by the way) is not the way to get heard. Neither is comparing weird edge case units to your own and complaining because they don't match up. Do this properly and you'll get not only a better response, but also something much more useful to pass on to the powers that be.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

It's not less survivable since it's a Character, it's faster than an Ironclad even without the Deep Strike, and it provides two buffs to nearby Daemons.

Ironclads move 5" per turn while having no way to avoid being blasted off the board before even approaching close combat. Daemon Princes can blitz across the board while hiding in a squad of Daemons, buff said Daemons and then proceed to rip a Knight in half.

Why is the Ironclad Dreadnought overpowered? Look beyond the terrific potential damage and look at how likely you'd actually be to get to deliver it. It's like mounting a 16" gun on a kayak, it'd be lethal if it ever got to hit something.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

It's not less survivable since it's a Character, it's faster than an Ironclad even without the Deep Strike, and it provides two buffs to nearby Daemons.

Ironclads move 5" per turn while having no way to avoid being blasted off the board before even approaching close combat. Daemon Princes can blitz across the board while hiding in a squad of Daemons, buff said Daemons and then proceed to rip a Knight in half.

Why is the Ironclad Dreadnought overpowered? Look beyond the terrific potential damage and look at how likely you'd actually be to get to deliver it. It's like mounting a 16" gun on a kayak, it'd be lethal if it ever got to hit something.

T8 3+? Sure, one might get killed. But if you field, say, three? AT LEAST one is making it over there. Or, what if you're up against a melee army? They have no choice but to fight you in close combat.

For reference, I just fought Black Templar yesterday. He had Helbrecht, the Champ, and various other people. I won (which is why I'm fine buffing Black Templars) and while I did win pretty hard on objectives, we were both pretty low on models at the end of the game. If he had had double the attacks in close combat? He'd have destroyed me.

I would like to suggest another idea for Chapter Tactics:
Any infantry unit or dreadnought can reroll failed charge rolls. Also any model that carries a power sword, power axe or power maul gains +1 to its attacks characteristic.

What do you think guys? It's a sprinkling of extra close combat power that won't be too much for a chapter tactic when added to charge rerolls. I am also thinking of alternative ideas that add a bonus to chainswords instead, though I am not sure what it should be.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Reroll charges and give them an anti-fall back mechanic. Like "zealous follow-through: Whenever an enemy falls back and would leave a black templars squad outside 1" of any enemies, you may roll a dice. On a 4+, the Black templar squad may move up to 6" as if consolidating in the fight phase. If they engage any enemy unit in this way, the black templar unit fights first in the fight phase as if it charged, despite it being the opponent's turn."

See this? THIS is a creative solution to an obvious problem and it isn't broken.

Agreed. I like this suggestion much more. More fluffy, likely more useful.

If it's more useful then how is it not "ludicruously OP"?

I'll try it your way and explain my reasoning a bit more in-depth to see if we can find better alternatives. The main issue is that, without exception, all the melee units have bad-to-horrible damage output. Even Vanguard Veterans and Thunderhammer Terminators have pretty iffy damage output for their cost, as illustrated by the fact that you could literally double the amout of attacks our units get and STILL be at best on-par with Khorne Berzerkers. Once you start adding stuff like Genestealers attacking you from across the board or Bloodletter hordes supported by Skarbrand charging you from Deep Strike there's really no point to trying to play Black Templars; any other Chapter Tactic does the shooting gunline better and the melee options you have to work with are so bad that they'd struggle to be good at twice their current attacks. Literally every other melee-centric army can waltz over Black Templars as if they weren't there.

How do we solve it? We either break Templars out of the Vanilla Codex again, which I'd prefer, or we make the Chapter Tactics compensate for the fact that the faction is shoehorned into a book it doesn't belong in to fix the melee deficiency without breaking the other Chapters (Ultramarines with this would be beyond dumb, for instance). As a stop-gap, it's much easier to just use the Chapter Tactic than it is to make a whole new Codex.

Next, we look at what good melee units are like. They've got to have at least two of the trinity of speed, toughness, and oomph:
Speed means they need to be fast enough to get into combat quickly (think Genestealers or deep-striking Bloodletters).
Toughness means they have to be tanky enough to weather the storm while getting into combat (think Knights)
Oomph means they have to be strong enough on a per-model basis that they do damage even if they've been thinned out on the way (think Berzerkers).

Slaanesh demons is a good example of a bunch of melee units that fail in this regard; they have speed, but they're made of papier maché and have almost no oomph once they get into combat. Bloodletters are a good example of a unit that has two, speed and oomph, as they can charge out of Deep Strike (yes, I know it costs a Command Point, but that's what those are for) with 61 good attacks. Genestealers also have speed and oomph, making them another good example. Skarbrand is an example of a unit that has all three; he can Deep Strike (see previous paranthesis), he hits like a truck full of anvils, and he's a Greater Daemon and thus tanky. Guilliman is another example of a unit with all three as well, although he'd rather just buff his Razorbacks.

Black Templars currently have none of these. The melee units hit like wet noodles (except TH/SS Terminators), die like flies (including TH/SS Terminators), and only Vanguard Veterans (and Assault Marines but lol), Reivers, and Terminators have a decent way of getting into close combat from Deep Strike (not counting Drop Pods as decent because they aren't), and even then it's a 55-ish% chance of success if you're willing to use a Command Point, so hardly reliable. Only Vanguard Veterans, Reivers and Terminators are fast enough to actually get into combat reliably through speed (Deep Strike or jumping), and they don't have the oomph to back their point cost up once they get there, and they sure as heck aren't tanky enough. All the Dreadnoughts have oomph, but not enough of it, and not enough speed or toughness to get into combat reliably anyway.

How do we fix this? We add oomph. A lot of it. Black Templar fluff isn't about lightning attacks (that's Raven Guard or Blood Angels) or about outflanking the enemy and running them down (Raven Guard again, or White Scars), it's about stubbornly charging through Hell or high water, reaching the enemy lines and killing the everliving crap out of them. The current Chapter Tactic adds a little bit of speed, which helps, but it is irrelevant if the units cannot do damage once they get there. Thus, we add more attacks. A unit with more attacks will do damage even if half the squad is shot to pieces on the way in. An army with more attacks compensates for the lack of tankiness or speed through getting the same number of attacks in as an army with more speed but less attacks. An army with more attacks that reaches the enemy later than a faster one with fewer attacks compensates for its late arrival through a higher volume of attacks per round of combat.

The proposed ability to lock enemy units in combat on a 4+ would help, but only against armies that don't want to be in melee in the first place. Black Templars would still get absolutely massacred by any other melee-focussed army in the game. What do Bloodletters or Death Company care about not being able to retreat?

Actually that'd be a point, supposed we made Black Templars unable to retreat from CC as part of the Chapter Tactics? You'd be better at melee at the cost of having worse gunline elements to steer you towards a more melee-centric build, and there's precedence from the 4th edition Codex (Fearless in CC, had to charge if you took the one good Vow).

One other option would be to add more speed, akin to the old Righteous Zeal where you got to consolidate towards the enemy if they killed off your models. This still doesn't solve the problem of your melee units hitting like wet noodles once they get into combat, and doesn't give the strong but slow units a buff because they're too expensive to lose for Righteous Zeal.

The last option would be to buff toughness, but in that case why aren't other Space Marines just as tough as the Black Templars? It'd step on both the Death Guard and the Iron Hands' toes as well.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right, so you took a more expensive model with less survability (3+/5++ T6 is worse than 3+ T8), added an artifact, and used a strategem (they don't get native deep strike), and ended up pretty similar to a basic Ironclad?

That should really say all it needs to.

It's not less survivable since it's a Character, it's faster than an Ironclad even without the Deep Strike, and it provides two buffs to nearby Daemons.

Ironclads move 5" per turn while having no way to avoid being blasted off the board before even approaching close combat. Daemon Princes can blitz across the board while hiding in a squad of Daemons, buff said Daemons and then proceed to rip a Knight in half.

Why is the Ironclad Dreadnought overpowered? Look beyond the terrific potential damage and look at how likely you'd actually be to get to deliver it. It's like mounting a 16" gun on a kayak, it'd be lethal if it ever got to hit something.

T8 3+? Sure, one might get killed. But if you field, say, three? AT LEAST one is making it over there. Or, what if you're up against a melee army? They have no choice but to fight you in close combat.

Then you don't fight it with monsters, you fight it with bog-standard infantry and drown it in wounds. It'd kill like 5 infantry models a turn, less if they had invulnerable saves of some kind. Even then a faster model has a better chance of getting a charge off and killing it before it can swing. Ork Boyz kill Ironclads through sheer number of attacks, Meganobz just cut it to pieces, the above-mentioned Skullreaver Prince would, well, Reave the Dreadnought's Skull, and Genestealers would swarm it before it could react.

As for comparing to "edge cases", those "edge cases" are the standard to which other melee units have to be compared; why would I take Mark of Khorne CSM with Chainswords when I could pay a little more and get more than 200% (!!) the melee power in Khorne Berzerkers if I wanted melee units? Why would I take a bunch of Gaunts when I could take Genestealers and rip people's faces off. We don't compare shooting units to Whirlwinds or to Fire Prisms, we compare them to Manticores and Dark Reapers. The same should hold for melee units.

2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

 JNAProductions wrote:
2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

Bloodletters actually have a ridiculously high chance to make a charge i believe it was somewhere in the range of 93% with the 3d6 +1inch charge range.

 Rydria wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

Bloodletters actually have a 93.8% chance to make the charge if you buff them appropriately due to the 3d6 +1 charge range with a reroll.

How do they get 3d6? I confess, I have not looked over my Daemons Codex as much as I should've, I just focused on the Nurgle bits.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
2 Command Points to Deep Strike 30 Letters. And they'll usually fail their charge, even with an Instrument.

Skarbrand is NOT tanky. Greater Daemons die easy.

And you're basically saying "Black Templars can only do melee, therefore their melee should be on par with the the best melee units in the game". You do realize you have the ENTIRE Marine arsenal, right? That includes a lot of shooting.

Bloodletters actually have a 93.8% chance to make the charge if you buff them appropriately due to the 3d6 +1 charge range with a reroll.

How do they get 3d6? I confess, I have not looked over my Daemons Codex as much as I should've, I just focused on the Nurgle bits.

By paying 1 command point to upgrade the icon into a banner of blood.

So that's 3 Command points to drop 235 points of Bloodletters 9" away and get a single 3d6+1" charge?

Seems fair to me.

Honestly I would change Black Templars in the following way:

The Great Crusade- Any BT unit who has not moved this turn may reroll 1's to hit with any bolt weapon. Any BT unit who took a casualty in the preceding turn may advance and then charge. Any BT unit that gets charged gains +1 attack during this turn of combat.



Along with their characters, ability to take neophytes (scouts) in their tac squads and be allowed to exchange their Boltgun for a chainsword for free I think they will be fine.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So that's 3 Command points to drop 235 points of Bloodletters 9" away and get a single 3d6+1" charge?

Seems fair to me.

It is fair. It's also far better than anything the Vanilla Codex can muster in terms of melee units. This, along with Berzerkers, Genestealers etc., is the standard you're having to match if you want to compete. No one competetively takes Deff Dreads or Bloodcrushers, we compare units to the good ones to see if they're worthwhile.

And yes, you have the entire shooting arsenal at your disposal. The thoroughly underwhelming shooting arsenal. Nids have shooting. CSM have mostly the same shooting support with the Stormraven being the most notable missing unit. Blood Angels have shooting. Orks are a bit shafted on that front and Khorne daemons have little, but everyone else does. The AssCan Razorback is worse now, Guilliman isn't a Black Templar and the rest of the shooting options are thoroughly mediocre, excepting again the Stormraven.

If you think Greater Daemons die easily (and I probably agree they do on second thought) you should see Ironclad Dreadnoughts. T8 doesn't help protect against anti-tank weapons, a 3+ save means you're vulnerable to being plinked to death by small-arms, and you can't even outrun the enemy to catch them because you have a 5" move. The one saving grace is that it's cheap.

Put it this way: when's the last time an army where the vast majority of melee units get S4 AP- attacks dominated the game because of their melee prowess? 3rd edition. There's an argument that Space Wolves during 5th could fit, but I'd argue that was mostly their shooting. In order for an army dependent on low-S bad-AP attacks to be viable in melee you HAVE to have a massive number of attacks, because each individual
attack is so weak. Orks, who aren't exactly in a good spot themselves at the moment, get a blistering about of S4 attacks on their models because S4 AP- is trash.

As it currently stands I can spend 130 points on 10 Crusaders and 180 points on Helbrecht to buff them and still have the unit get outfought by 160 points of Berzerkers. Without Helbrecht the Berzerkers have more than 300% (!) better damage output against MEQ and still over 200% better damage output against GEQ than their equivalent cost in Crusaders (160 points of Berzerkers vs. 156 points of Crusaders). That's without any Legion Tactics. A 20-man Crusader Squad that gets the charge on 30 Boyz loses more points in models than the Boyz do. The examples can go on and on.

Berzerkers, in turn, aren't dominating the game. They're good, but not overly so. Same with the Booodletter bomb; it's good, but not too good. Same with Genestealers. Same with Skarbrand. Same with Skullreaver princes. So how is it that Black Templars would break the game with units that would be on par with these non-broken units?

Because of the shooting backup? No, that cannot be the case; the shooting options are comparable to several other melee-centric armies. Because of other units being bad? No, we don't compare to units that are bad, we strive to match the good ones.

If we ignore Helbrecht and Ironclad Dreadnoughts as the two main problematic units (and I disagree about Ironclads, but for argument's sake), what units would break the game? Is it the aggregate effect of upping melee power across the entire army?

I run Nurgle Daemons. I have virtually no shooting unless I ally in CSM.

My basic unit has a 5" move (worse than a Marine), hits on a 4+ (worse than a Marine), S4 (same) with rerolls to wound (better), no shooting at all (worse), and a 5++/5+++ (which is worse against anything without AP, slightly better against AP-1, and a decent amount better against higher AP values). They're also Leadership 7, with virtually no morale mitigation available.

What buffs do they need to make them viable? Because Black Templars seem pretty much better than that.

In addition, Greater Daemons are way more expensive than Ironclads, for not all that much tougher. I'll agree Ironclads aren't made of steel or anything, but for their price, they're pretty tough. (And T8 3+ makes them just fine against small arms-wounding on 6, with a 3+ save, means you need an average of 27 3+ bolter shots to do a SINGLE WOUND to an Ironclad. Compare to a GUO, who takes only 10.125 3+ bolter shots to take a wound.)

And your basic unit costs? Are Plaguebearers still 8 PPM or did they change in the Codex?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And your basic unit costs? Are Plaguebearers still 8 PPM or did they change in the Codex?

They've been 7 PPM since the CSM Dex.

So, for being slower, less durable, only about the same offensively, and lacking shooting entirely whilst being more vulnerable to morale, they're still more than half the cost of a full-fledged Marine.

They're more durable against certain targets and you're not taking the -1 to hit aura into account. Plus, for 70 points you get 10 models compared to my 5 at 65, so your almost parity on an on-model basis translates to a much tougher unit in practice, while having comparable damage output and worse movement (although you've got that Deep Strike stratagem too, no?).

Compare this to Vanguard Veterans and Berzerkers who fulfil the same role, cost the same and have the same statline except the Berzerkers have S5 and Vanguard magically get half the number of attacks because reasons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They're more durable against certain targets and you're not taking the -1 to hit aura into account. Plus, for 70 points you get 10 models compared to my 5 at 65, so your almost parity on an on-model basis translates to a much tougher unit in practice, while having comparable damage output and worse movement (although you've got that Deep Strike stratagem too, no?).

Compare this to Vanguard Veterans and Berzerkers who fulfil the same role, cost the same and have the same statline except the Berzerkers have S5 and Vanguard magically get half the number of attacks because reasons.

The -1 to hit only applies in squad sizes of 20 or more-when you're INCREDIBLY vulnerable to morale.

And here's the thing-if you try playing Marines as a PURELY MELEE ARMY, yes, you're going to not do so hot. They have some good melee choices, but they aren't designed to be a pure melee force. Look at all the shooting you have. We don't think you should bring every single BT Melee unt (or even non-melee units, honestly) up to being great melee units.

If a melee unit isn't a great melee unit, why does it exist?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If a melee unit isn't a great melee unit, why does it exist?

To not be a melee unit? Crsuaders and Neophytes are not a melee unit-they are a troop, and a jack of all trades at that. (They can be kitted out to be BETTER at melee, but that doesn't mean they're a dedicated melee option.)

Vanguard Veterans are pretty good as-is. Assault Marines need a buff, but that should be a buff to THAT UNIT, not one specific chapter tactic.

Vanguard Veterans aren't "pretty good". Khorne Berzerkers are "pretty good". Genestealers are "pretty good". Bloodletters are "pretty good". What's even the point in having the option to take Chainswords if the unit is going to be used as a shooting unit anyway because it's the only redeeming feature it has? They don't even outfight Ork Boyz when they get the charge and out-cost the Orks.

And if I wanted to play shooty Marines, why would I not just play Raven Guard or Ultramarines, or any of the Chapter Tactics that are actually meant to be shooty. You say that BT aren't meant to be played as a purely melee army, but if that is the case then why are Khorne Berserkers and Bloodletters so much better than my melee units? Neither Chaos Space Marines nor Chaos Daemons lack shooting prowess, so why is it that they get a pass at having melee on the level we're discussing? Why can Tyranids get away with having Genestealers while also having Carnifexes that rival my best shooting units?

EDIT:

How's this for a compromise idea? How about giving Black Templars a version of the old Righteous Zeal rule back where you get to advance if your unit takes losses (once per phase or once per turn, we can discuss the specifics), and then let a unit that loses models to shooting get +2 attacks in the next Fight! phase? It'd stop Dreadnoughts and Characters getting out of hand, it'd not be "on" all the time and it'd mean you could counterplay it through focussing down one unit at a time rather than spreading your fire. Toss out the rerolls to charge distance if it gets too strong, although most melee armies get ways to reroll charges one way or another.

Did you just... Did you just say Chaos Daemons DON'T lack shooting prowess?

I run Nurgle daemons. I have the following units with guns:

Great Unclean Ones-Short range. Basically a pistol.
Daemon Princes-Warp Bolter. Basically an AP-1, D2 bolter.
Plague Drones-They have Assault 2 12" bolters, basically.
Soul Grinders-They actually have a decent amount of shooting, but are generally considered overcosted.

I have virtually no shooting.

And again, I have not said and I don't think anyone else have said that BT don't deserve a BUFF. It's just that your suggestion is way too strong.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you just... Did you just say Chaos Daemons DON'T lack shooting prowess?

I run Nurgle daemons. I have the following units with guns:

Great Unclean Ones-Short range. Basically a pistol.
Daemon Princes-Warp Bolter. Basically an AP-1, D2 bolter.
Plague Drones-They have Assault 2 12" bolters, basically.
Soul Grinders-They actually have a decent amount of shooting, but are generally considered overcosted.

I have virtually no shooting.

And again, I have not said and I don't think anyone else have said that BT don't deserve a BUFF. It's just that your suggestion is way too strong.

Pretty sure there's more than just Nurgle in the book. Or does trying to play an army as a purely melee army being a bad idea only apply to Marines?

Pretty sure there's more than Black Templars in the Marines Dex too.

Jumping in in the middle of the discussion but - what about reintroduction of old furious charge? I think it's a more elegant, non-game breaking (althought +1A isn't game breaking either, but) solution to this notion of "zealous combatants" theme.

So, Black Templars' reroll failed charge rolls. In addition, Black Templar units with this tactic adds +1 to Strength on the turn they charged.

This way, when BT's charge, they can still threaten T8's with +5 to wound and T4's at +3 to wounds on the charge. Since SM doesn't have any +S aura abilities, I think it could blend in pretty well while providing BT's a unique perk.

 skchsan wrote:
Jumping in in the middle of the discussion but - what about reintroduction of old furious charge? I think it's a more elegant, non-game breaking (althought +1A isn't game breaking either, but) solution to this notion of "zealous combatants" theme.

So, Black Templars' reroll failed charge rolls. In addition, Black Templar units with this tactic adds +1 to Strength on the turn they charged.

This way, when BT's charge, they can still threaten T8's with +5 to wound and T4's at +3 to wounds on the charge. Since SM doesn't have any +S aura abilities, I think it could blend in pretty well while providing BT's a unique perks.

Actually, Helbrecht gives +1 S to nearby BTs.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Jumping in in the middle of the discussion but - what about reintroduction of old furious charge? I think it's a more elegant, non-game breaking (althought +1A isn't game breaking either, but) solution to this notion of "zealous combatants" theme.

So, Black Templars' reroll failed charge rolls. In addition, Black Templar units with this tactic adds +1 to Strength on the turn they charged.

This way, when BT's charge, they can still threaten T8's with +5 to wound and T4's at +3 to wounds on the charge. Since SM doesn't have any +S aura abilities, I think it could blend in pretty well while providing BT's a unique perks.

Actually, Helbrecht gives +1 S to nearby BTs.

Baah

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pretty sure there's more than Black Templars in the Marines Dex too.

Why does that matter. The existence of other Daemon units matters because you justified the power of the melee units in Codex: Daemon with the logic that they didn't have good shooting units. The existence of such shooting units nullifies that argument. I haven't made such an argument, so your statement doesn't actually, as far as I can see, mean anything.

My suggestion above seems to have beeen missed due to me editing it in, so I'll repost it.

How's this for a compromise idea? How about giving Black Templars a version of the old Righteous Zeal rule back where you get to advance if your unit takes losses (once per phase or once per turn, we can discuss the specifics), and then let a unit that loses models to shooting get +2 attacks in the next Fight! phase? It'd stop Dreadnoughts and Characters getting out of hand, it'd not be "on" all the time and it'd mean you could counterplay it through focussing down one unit at a time rather than spreading your fire. Toss out the rerolls to charge distance if it gets too strong, although most melee armies get ways to reroll charges one way or another.