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Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Since everyone and their mother seemingly has access to rerolls to charge distance while also getting other melee buffs ('Ere we go!, Icon of Khorne, upcoming Locus of Khorne etc.) I suggest a change to the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

Righteous Zeal

You may reroll failed charge rolls for Black Templars units with this Chapter Tactic. Further, any unit with this Chapter Tactics fights twice in each Fight Phase instead of once.


People are obviously going to point out that this is a massive buff, and it is. That's the entire point; Codex: Space Marines is essentially a mono-build where you either play Razorbacks with Guilliman or you get stomped. This buff wouldn't give Razorback spam any sort of buff whatsoeve, but it would let Chapter Tactics: Black Templars be non-trash tier for the first time since 5th edition.

Are there any melee units in the book that would break the game by stealing a page from Khorne's book? Khorne Berzerkers would still be better than most of the melee units, and of the ones that could be better Assault Terminators have issues with getting to their target and Honour Guard are, quite frankly, awful as they currently are.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't object to the raw power boost. Most marine melee units are meh-to-good rather than amazing. I would, however, be concerned that having to go back and activate so many units twice could be rather annoying and time consuming.

Perhaps a bonus on the charge? Something like +1 Attack in a fight phase if you charged in the preceding charge phase? Or even doubling a model's Attacks characteristic if they charged in the charge phase? My concern there would be that this threatens to step on Blood Angels' toes quite a bit.
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior




Tacoma, WA, USA

All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Wyldhunt wrote:
I don't object to the raw power boost. Most marine melee units are meh-to-good rather than amazing. I would, however, be concerned that having to go back and activate so many units twice could be rather annoying and time consuming.

Perhaps a bonus on the charge? Something like +1 Attack in a fight phase if you charged in the preceding charge phase? Or even doubling a model's Attacks characteristic if they charged in the charge phase? My concern there would be that this threatens to step on Blood Angels' toes quite a bit.


I'd step on any other Chapter's toes in a heartbeat at this point.

+1 attack on the charge would just be a worse version of the World Eaters Legion tactics though.

 alextroy wrote:
All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.


Ignoring the part where I explicitly pointed out that Khorne Berzerkers would still be better than the majority of the melee units in question. A World Eaters Khorne Berzerker has twice the attacks on the charge and better S than Crusaders (better than Vanguard Veterans too), even without fighting twice. Not to mention that any Khorne Marine unit can, as you put it, already be a Black Templar for 10 points per unit.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Gonna say no to this one.
+1 attack on the charge is fine.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), and T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylish CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Gonna say no to this one.
+1 attack on the charge is fine.


Again, that'd just be a worse version of the World Eaters Legion trait.

We know that Khorne Berzerkers are perfectly fine rules-wise, being good without being broken. Even with (effectively) double the attacks most melee units in C:SM would be worse than Berzerkers, so what's the big deal?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in se
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk




Sweden

+1 attack on charge would be alot more fun than the current reroll charge range.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior




Tacoma, WA, USA

We can start with thematic consistency. Every unit with the ability to fight more than once are 'berserker' type units. They are units that fight with insane abandon. Templars are righteous crusaders, not insane butchers.

Then there is a matter of the power of the rule. Fighting twice may be unimpressive for Tactical Marines and Devastators, but it will be really good for characters and the various veteran units like Terminators, Vanguard Veterans, and Command Squads. You don't see fanatical combatants like Khorne Daemons fighting twice. Why should your average Templar be doing that?

If rerolling charges is not good enough for Templars, then a little additional bonus may be in need. However, it seems rather thematic giving Templars have always loved to run towards the enemy to get into grips with them. A more thematic bonus to add would be a rule allowing them to treat Rapid Fire X as Assault X Weapons when they advance. This would mean that Templar units could move toward the enemy quickly while still laying down some firepower.

Still not great and makes the Chapter Tactic too good with both bonuses (Black Legion gets that along with +1 Leadership), but you get the idea.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Thematically Black Templars shouldn't be in the Vanilla Codex in the first place; the Codex Astartes places much more emphasis on shooting than Templar doctrine does. As long as they are, however, this level of buffs is what's required to make Templar melee not suck. The last three editions (6th, 7th and now 8th) Black Templars have been at the bottom of the pile of the Space Marine Chapters because having good enough melee units in a book full of generalists and shooting units wasn't ever going to happen.

Treating Rapid Fire weapons as Assault for the purposes of Advancing would be a bandaid on a missing leg; Black Templars would still be among the worst Chapter Tactics because buffing the melee potential of units that don't want to be in melee in the first place is a lousy Chapter Tactic. If we can't break Black Templars out of the Vanilla Codex to buff the melee potential and we can't buff the melee units in the book because it'd affect every other Chapter to the same degree, then the remaining point to tweak is the Chapter Tactics.

I'd also argue that the Black Templars are more berserker-like than you give them credit for. The World Eaters and the Black Templars are, in a sense, mirrors of each other; the World Eaters are rage for the sake of rage itself, while the Templars are rage harnessed for a purpose. Sigismund and Khârn's rivalry and duel at the Siege of Terra mirrors this; they're different, and yet similar.

How about this though? Give the BT back rerolls in close combat at all times, and make auras that grant rerolls give you an extra attack in CC instead. You'd still be stuck with the crappy melee units of C:SM but at least this way you'd be able to make them do something through using characters. It encourages your Characters to get up close and personal to buff the melee units, it doesn't buff Razorspam, and it combines nicely with the Zeal theme (zeal being connected to rerolls in CC as evidenced by Chaplains and Priests providing rerolls).

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Gitdakka wrote:
+1 attack on charge would be alot more fun than the current reroll charge range.

It would also be significantly worse.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




I would definitely favour rerolls to hit over extra attacks. I feel like Black Templars need the righteous zeal boost too movement, charges or running as well to completely encapsulate their character. The question is whether this is too powerful in all. Perhaps just rerolls on 1s, or a disadvantage in some other area to compensate, like shooting with heavy weapons..

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/01 02:04:55


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Marksman224 wrote:
I would definitely favour rerolls to hit over extra attacks. I feel like Black Templars righteous zeal boost too movement, charges or running as well to completely encapsulate their character though. The question is whether this is too powerful in all. Perhaps just rerolls on 1s, or a disadvantage in some other area to compensate, like shooting with heavy weapons..

Which makes Chaplains and Captains worse. Which means the main non-redundant HQ's the Librarian (which they can't take anyway), and the...Techmarine.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes Chaplains and Captains worse. Which means the main non-redundant HQ's the Librarian (which they can't take anyway), and the...Techmarine.

Yes I would say that is the main problem, the resulting redundancy of other units. I still want to think about this because I think there might be possible Chapter Tactics that would make the Templars great again. With regards to extra attacks BT already have more of a boost over other marines than they used to. In this edition chainswords now double the number of attacks of intiates at all times, whereas in previous editions it was only a 50% increase when comparing charging units. I know this is more to do with charging no longer giving a universal +1 A, but I like the reduction in the number of dice we have to roll and it would be a shame to loose it.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Alaska

Re-rolling charges is a really good ability, especially for units that can deep strike, but I agree that the Black Templars seem to be lacking a little bit.

I think that some of the problem isn't that the Chapter Tactic is bad but rather that some units have problems. Basic Marines, even with chainswords and jump packs, just don't seem that great in close combat. Unfortunately for the Black Templars those types of units often make up big parts of their army.

I think that buffs from Captains, Chaplains and other characters are especially important for Black Templars, but it would be nice to see them get a little more punch built in. I don't play them myself, but my brother does and it's a shame how easily my Boyz seem to trounce them in close combat.

Giving Crusader Squads a buff would be nice. Many other units that can have a lot of models get +1 Attack or re-rolls to wound or something along those lines when they have X+ models. This is somewhat besides the point, but I think it would be nice if Crusader Squads had some sort of built-in leadership protection beyond ATSKNF as they can take units of up to twenty models.

Ideally I would like to see them get their own mini-dex that would bring back Vows. The Vows had both good and bad parts but because you could choose the right Vow for the situation it was mostly a good thing.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Black Templars have a fine Chapter Tactic overall. The primary issues are:
1. Non-Dreads get nothing in the codex
2. SM melee units are overall blech. Remember that our overall best option is an 18 point model at 4 attacks with two Chainswords. And thats mostly because of the high movement. Terminators got better but not by much, Honour Guard are fething capped at 2 man squads of all things, and Command Squads are better off spamming special weapons.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






Hmm, I know it might be a bit complex, but what about a three-part tactic?

  1. Re-roll charge distance.
  2. May always strike before units that did not charge (so not as powerful as Howling Banshees with Phoenix Lord who always go first).
  3. May charge after falling back.


This means they still don't have the raw damage of World Eaters, but instead get a lot of close combat flexibility; striking first can be more powerful than doing more damage depending upon the units and situation, meanwhile charging after falling back means you can't be tar-pitted as easily, as you can just pull away and charge what you actually want to be fighting (if it's in range).

None of these is individually super powerful, not compared to the Ultramarines tactic, but together should give a lot of interesting flexibility for a mixed combat army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 00:15:13


   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Reverent Tech-Adept





 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.


+2" to all advancing movements

As an admech player your transports offend me. 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

 kastelen wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.


+2" to all advancing movements


Huh. I did indeed forget about that.

My point, while factually incorrect, still stands though-White Scars (at the very least) would need a significant buff too.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Really, the Tactics all need two parts if we are only going to apply everything to just infantry and Dreads but that's a different discussion.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




There are six chapter tacitcs apart from the black templars, three have one part, the other three have two parts. The three with one part apply for a large portion of the game: Feel no Pain, Master Crafted, Stealth. With the other Chapter Tactics each part is situation specific or limited in power, so in some sense it balances out. So it does seem that the Black Templars are weeker in a sense, they have a moderately good bonus to one specific action. Personally I love re-rolling the charge, we just need one little extra thing; unless a separate codex isn't out of the question.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 22:23:57


 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






 JNAProductions wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

+2" to all advancing movements


Huh. I did indeed forget about that.

My point, while factually incorrect, still stands though-White Scars (at the very least) would need a significant buff too.

I disagree, with the three abilities I proposed number 3 (charge after falling back) is actually a very minor improvement due to number 2 (always fight first vs. non-charging enemies). For White Scars charge after falling back can both be used to avoid tarpits, but also to always fight first due to charging, but Black Templars as I proposed wouldn't need to do this since an enemy can't charge in your turn, so they will almost always fight first in your turn regardless, and sometimes in the enemy turn as well.

This means that for Black Templars charging after falling back would only really be useful if you get stuck against a tarpit unit when a more preferable target is nearby, so it's really just a little extra help to avoid tarpit units. Also, charging after falling back is more useful to a bike heavy force (granted, nothing stops you running bike-heavy Black Templars if you want though) because they can move farther to begin with, with or without charging re-rolls.

With that in mind, number 2 is the real improvement, number 3 is just a situational anti-tarpit bonus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 12:22:25


   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Australia

 Haravikk wrote:
May charge after falling back.


I'd say add this to the existing Chapter Tactics and add the following:
  1. If an enemy psyker manifests a psychic power within 6" of a Black Templar Model, the power fails on a 6+ roll (on a D6).
  2. If an enemy psyker manifests a psychic power against a Black Templar Model or Unit, the power fails on a 6+ roll (on a D6).


      I'd say this and / or allow Black Templars to use the 'Abhor the Witch' Strategem more than once would be good.

      I also think that Black Templars suffer from not having their own codex or unique units and formations. Our names characters are - relatively speaking - not really any better than any other SM named character, and we only have one unique non-HQ unit which isn't as good as people seem to think it can be (I've heard people rave about the ability to use Neophytes without realising how hard Crusader Squads as a whole can be to use). So I reckon reverting out anti-psychic abilities closer to what it was in 7th is a good start, but Black Templars would also need their own codex again.

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Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






If little brother black templars get something like that then imperial fists should get their rerolls against tanks instead of flippin fortifications.

and other brother crimson fists should get their own thing.

IMHO:

BT should be rerolls charges, rerolls hits and or wounds in the first round of combat.

gives them a little something something and can be built autonomously rather than relying on characters to buff.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 23:47:07


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in nz
Been Around the Block




Charging after falling back doesn't feel like the right kind of bonus for Templars at all, since they're the kind of zealots that wouldn't fall back in the first place. There should certainly not be any overlap between different chapter tactics either, that just sells short two chapters and their successors.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/04 03:19:07


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Reroll charges and +1 attack when they charge.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Haravikk wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So what do White Scars get? Because White Scars get part 3 and ONLY part 3.

+2" to all advancing movements


Huh. I did indeed forget about that.

My point, while factually incorrect, still stands though-White Scars (at the very least) would need a significant buff too.

I disagree, with the three abilities I proposed number 3 (charge after falling back) is actually a very minor improvement due to number 2 (always fight first vs. non-charging enemies). For White Scars charge after falling back can both be used to avoid tarpits, but also to always fight first due to charging, but Black Templars as I proposed wouldn't need to do this since an enemy can't charge in your turn, so they will almost always fight first in your turn regardless, and sometimes in the enemy turn as well.

This means that for Black Templars charging after falling back would only really useful if you get stuck against a tarpit unit when a more preferable target is nearby, so it's really just a little extra help to avoid tarpit units. Also, charging after falling back is more useful to a bike heavy force (granted, nothing stops you running bike-heavy Black Templars if you want though) because they can move farther to begin with, with or without charging re-rolls.

With that in mind, number 2 is the real improvement, number 3 is just a situational anti-tarpit bonus.


Good points. With all that in mind though, I'd probably advise dropping the "charge back in" part. As Marksman points out, it doesn't quite fit Templars. Plus, you basically just said, "Yeah. The main part of White Scars' tactics is basically an unimportant add on that I threw on top of the other benefits I gave Templars." Obviously that's ignoring most of the context, but the point still stands.
   
Made in nl
Water-Caste Negotiator




 alextroy wrote:
All Black Templars are Khorne Berserkers? No, I don't think so.


Imagine assault terminators/ centurions or TH/SS captains with that gak

A buff is ok but +1A on the charge is enough really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 21:08:59


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Reduce neophites cost to 8-9 ppm (lets go black tide)

Give BT chaplains the ability to deny the witch (+1?)

+1 attack on charge

Allow troops in LRCs to disembark AFTER movement

Reduce price for grimaldus (100pts)

Helbrect aura to units w/in 6" not models wholly within

New unit of sword brothers which would basically be berserkers or some sort of actual good CQC unit (4 base attacks, +1 s, -2 ap, 2w/re-roll wounds of 1? swords, no ranged upgrades, deny the witch on a 5+, jump packs?, 20-24 points?)
   
Made in nz
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



New Zealand

bananathug wrote:
Reduce neophites cost to 8-9 ppm (lets go black tide)


New unit of sword brothers which would basically be berserkers or some sort of actual good CQC unit (4 base attacks, +1 s, -2 ap, 2w/re-roll wounds of 1? swords, no ranged upgrades, deny the witch on a 5+, jump packs?, 20-24 points?)


So basically Sanguinary Guard +.

Just to remind people of the Blood Angels tactics - you know a very assault based Chapter/Legion - is; +1 to wound on the charge; and troops get to control objectives even if outnumbered.

I don't want to make Black Templars Blood Angels+
   
 
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