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Fixing Codex Space Marines:

Disclaimer: I play Ultramarines as a main, so don't hate on me I actually like them and their lore and Guilliman (I am a massive Classical Roman buff so thats why). AND YES THEY ARE PAINTED IN SMURF BLUE! No "counts as smurfs" here
Here I try and drop some rules changes to make Codex: Space Marines actually good. If you play Space Marines you can feel that we kind of got nerfed too soon with the point costs changes as GW should have waited till the released all the Codexes. Also all of our units are a shadow of another factions units, which kind of sucks. If any of these would go through it would be after all the codexes are released. So help me out for ideas, I plan to send this to GW and of course not get a response or any feedback.

So, Now that you all hate me lets talk about changes?


Chapter Specific/Codex Wide Buffs:


HQ Units and Bobby G:


Troops and Dedicated Transports:

Why should space marines cannibalize guards unique mechanics? (Orders)

This falls apart basically immediately when you start stealing from other armies.

 Lance845 wrote:
Why should space marines cannibalize guards unique mechanics? (Orders)

This falls apart basically immediately when you start stealing from other armies.

I wouldn't say it falls apart; but I felt like it was weird to take the guards style as well.
It just makes sense for a tactically advanced force like the Space Mahreens to have something similar to advanced tactics.

When I read these threads I immediately look for changes to power armor.

The I look for changes to the tactical squad. Is a lascannon with four other marines good, is a heavy bolter with four other marines good, is a chainsword, storm bolter, or power weapon sergeant and four other marines good?

Just make them cheaper to reflect how crappy they play on the table top.

I was thinking for tacs you give them the primaris profile minus the range on the boltgun.
But then for primaris you let them halve the damage they take rounding up, so they are more resilient than normal marines but if you shoot a 3 damage weapon at them you'll still kill them


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And one thing I'd adore is Heavy bolters being rapid fire 3, I don't know if it would be too much


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I'm also against giving marines orders. But maybe some other mechanic, but I'm no game designer

Honestly some of the fixes are terrible and don't make sense. I'll tackle the specifics during my lunch though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly some of the fixes are terrible and don't make sense. I'll tackle the specifics during my lunch though.

Wow, I am deeply offended.

JK, hit me with what you think is unfair/not a fix. I wanted this to be a collaborative thing.


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 fraser1191 wrote:
I was thinking for tacs you give them the primaris profile minus the range on the boltgun.
But then for primaris you let them halve the damage they take rounding up, so they are more resilient than normal marines but if you shoot a 3 damage weapon at them you'll still kill them


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And one thing I'd adore is Heavy bolters being rapid fire 3, I don't know if it would be too much


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I'm also against giving marines orders. But maybe some other mechanic, but I'm no game designer

Heavy Bolters Rapid Fire 3 would be op for Guard lol. With 3 bolters on leman russes.
The New Tac Statine you mentioned is something but wouldn't fix them because, as we have seen Primaris Marines die too easy as well. You as well as someone else mentioned new Power Armor mechanics which I think is a good idea. 6+ Invul like bionics? Or some type of new save mechanics like be able to re-roll saves from weapons that have Strenght lower than or equal to their toughness? OP probably. I don't know, seems like they are limited to the D6 base of the game.

KingLetterman wrote:
Fixing Codex Space Marines:

Disclaimer: I play Ultramarines as a main, so don't hate on me I actually like them and their lore and Guilliman (I am a massive Classical Roman buff so thats why). AND YES THEY ARE PAINTED IN SMURF BLUE! No "counts as smurfs" here
Here I try and drop some rules changes to make Codex: Space Marines actually good. If you play Space Marines you can feel that we kind of got nerfed too soon with the point costs changes as GW should have waited till the released all the Codexes. Also all of our units are a shadow of another factions units, which kind of sucks. If any of these would go through it would be after all the codexes are released. So help me out for ideas, I plan to send this to GW and of course not get a response or any feedback.

So, Now that you all hate me lets talk about changes?

Firstly you need to determine what you're trying to do. Are you trying to "fix" CSM for Tournament play, or friendly play? They've been doing good in all my group's friendly games. Hell my mostly starter box Primaris even win games. Also what nerfs? My primaris marines pretty much saw universal point drops in both the codex and CA.

Anyway, I don't think Space Marine units are shadows of other codexes, its the other way around. Space marines are the primary. Everyone else is a shadow of them from a GW design point. That's why they were the first codex released. On a side note, if Space Marines want Guard Orders (which I think is a fine idea to be honest), then they need to lose their auras, which are SM version of orders. Which I also think is a damn fine idea. No more blobhammer please.

In my opinion, the problem with Space Marines is two fold:

1. Too many Emperor blessed units. There's so much overlap in these units it'd be funny if it wasn't so damn sad.
2. Jack of all trades in an edition which rewards specialists. Your basic marine is pretty much good at everything and he pays for it. But good luck making use of all those statistics in a single battle. And you have to deal with that point sink on EVERY unit.

Good luck fixing either of those without completely rebooting the faction in a way that no one will recognize. Your best hope is just to make them a little cheaper.

Specifics:
If Intercessors get a squad support weapon, I'd really rather it was a lascannon, melta, or even a stupid rocket launcher. We don't need more plasma, to be frank. We've got plasma coming out of our ears at this point.

I really agree on the Repulsor. Its got issues. Its a short ranged but slow APC with a silly amount of weak weapons on it. That's a terrible combination. They should have either given it a real turret weapon, or dropped the turret entirely. Another option I've considered before is giving it Deepstrike. That would be interesting.


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 Lance845 wrote:
Why should space marines cannibalize guards unique mechanics? (Orders)

This falls apart basically immediately when you start stealing from other armies.

Meh. Everyone steals from everyone. Its how the world works. All the armies basically have chapter tactics now. And the Imperium is one big happy faction, so why not? Right now the SM get Guard orders in their Auras. I think it might actually be interesting if a SM captain could give 3 orders (not necessarily from the same list as guard) to any space marines within vox range.

It would certainly beat this stupid blobhammer thing Space Marines seem encouraged to do right now.

Chapter tactics isn't the SMs big unique trick. It's ATSKNF. Which is like Nids having both synapse and instinctive behavior. Tau have For the Greater Good... etc etc...

 Lance845 wrote:
Chapter tactics isn't the SMs big unique trick. It's ATSKNF. Which is like Nids having both synapse and instinctive behavior. Tau have For the Greater Good... etc etc...

yeah and ATSKNF is crap this edition.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Chapter tactics isn't the SMs big unique trick. It's ATSKNF. Which is like Nids having both synapse and instinctive behavior. Tau have For the Greater Good... etc etc...

yeah and ATSKNF is crap this edition.

A different problem. Doesn't change the fact that the unique rule for SM is ATSKNF. SM did not originally have chapter tactics as a rule. Then they did for a long while, and now everyone has them. The one unique rule that has stuck with SM from the beginning is ATSKNF. The fact that it's not ideal this edition doesn't mean SM should start cherry picking other armies mechanics.

 Lance845 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Chapter tactics isn't the SMs big unique trick. It's ATSKNF. Which is like Nids having both synapse and instinctive behavior. Tau have For the Greater Good... etc etc...

yeah and ATSKNF is crap this edition.

A different problem. Doesn't change the fact that the unique rule for SM is ATSKNF. SM did not originally have chapter tactics as a rule. Then they did for a long while, and now everyone has them. The one unique rule that has stuck with SM from the beginning is ATSKNF. The fact that it's not ideal this edition doesn't mean SM should start cherry picking other armies mechanics.

Frankly i think every units Ld is too high/min squads are really making this mechanic null and void. Maybe if marines had lower Leadership I'd consider a Chaplin tagging along for once or get some use out of the reroll. I'm no designer but i think if marines had value of 6 (7 with the sarge?) and other armies were reduce a point as well you'd see more use out of this rule.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Chapter tactics isn't the SMs big unique trick. It's ATSKNF. Which is like Nids having both synapse and instinctive behavior. Tau have For the Greater Good... etc etc...

yeah and ATSKNF is crap this edition.

A different problem. Doesn't change the fact that the unique rule for SM is ATSKNF. SM did not originally have chapter tactics as a rule. Then they did for a long while, and now everyone has them. The one unique rule that has stuck with SM from the beginning is ATSKNF. The fact that it's not ideal this edition doesn't mean SM should start cherry picking other armies mechanics.

Frankly i think every units Ld is too high/min squads are really making this mechanic null and void. Maybe if marines had lower Leadership I'd consider a Chaplin tagging along for once or get some use out of the reroll. I'm no designer but i think if marines had value of 6 (7 with the sarge?) and other armies were reduce a point as well you'd see more use out of this rule.

I think that raises a point over all, there's too many morale mitigation abilities. if ATSKNF was a rare exception it'd make marines stand out a bit.

Marines also stand out for having nigh universal 3+ sv 3+ bs 3+ ws.

Let's see...

* Marine vehicles shooting things in melee with them.
Why? I get that it's annoying to have your guns silenced by enemies crawling on the hull, but your opponent had to get across the table and through your screens to reach them. I could see an argument for changing how this works on all vehicles game-wide, but I don't see why marines (who have kill shot predators mind you) should be immune.

* Orders
Flavorful. Fun. Possibly adding unnecessary complexity. Probably stealing guards' thunder. I think it would be neat if most/all factions had something akin to orders, but this change might be poorly received by your guard opponents. I'd also note that while it's conceptually cool, implementing a concept for its own sake isn't necessarily the way to go. I'd want to see specific orders and an explanation as to how they're intended to result in a better game experience for both players.

*Giving Obsec to Jumpers/Bikes
Eh. Why exactly? What's the intention here? I'm not totally opposed to it, but it would devalue the already shaky SM troop selection even more. Plus, it's kind of giving me flashbacks to Gladius armies where marines basically just had to have more bodies leaping onto objectives than their opponents had bullets in order to win. I'm receptive to the idea. What's the case for this change?

* Chainswords
Sure. That works for me.

* Raven Guard
More wings on things is cool. The stratagem is pretty transparently borrowing things from the BAs' closet. Probably fine mechanically. Creates more overlap between chapters aesthetically.

*White Scars
Sure.

*Iron Hands.
I like the FNP part. I'm iffy on the ignoring penalties part. Is that a bionic eye thing, or...? I'm cautious to give an army-wide rule that basically says your opponent doesn't get to play with their faction-specific rules or the special abilities presumably included in their unit profiles. Warp spiders, shadow spectres, venoms, star weavers, etc. would all basically be overpaying in a game against IH. This is especially annoying if you still let IH have their FNP on top of it. Maybe this would work better as an "Eyes of the Gorgon" relic or something?

*Other Chapters
Mostly agree. I'd swap out that weird 'Fists rule regarding buildings, but meh.

* Guilliman Nerfs
Yeah. These seem pretty reasonable to me. He'd still be a Captain ++, but he'd be less annoying overall. The whole "my primarch hides from the rest of your shooting for this phase and then comes back " thing is kind of a feelbad rule.

*Shrike
Not really opposed, but daemon's advocate: they're honor guard because They have better gear than him. Gives him a reason to bring them along and stand behind them.

*All Things Primaris
My personal preference would be for all marines to have primaris statlines with normal marine weapon options. The primaris fluff mostly just feels like a weird contortion intended to bridge the gap between true-scale and non-true-scale marines.


Overall, a lot of this looks interesting. It might help if you identified what the key issues you're hoping to address are and then explain how your fixes address them. Currently, this feels like a slightly scattershot wishlist. Albeit one that is a lot of fun to read.

So the question I want to make sure you asked yourself is: What exactly about the Codex am I trying to fix?

For example - The Raven Guard Strategem: What does that fix? Also - You might want to keep your fixes consistent with the rules. I mean - We all know what you mean when you talk about Feel No Pain with regards to the Iron Hands, but remember that USR doesn't exist anymore and it's not called Feel No Pain in the Chapter Tactics, so what exactly would they be adding the +1 to?

Black Templars give them +1 Attack on the Charge as well as re-rolls on charges. They screwed Black Templars over this edition, this would help.

Not having the +1 to Attacks on the Charfe is not how they screwed over Black Templars. They way they screwed over Black Templars was removing their one ability to counter psychic abilities and replaced it with a strategem that can only be used once per turn. Not to mention the fact that in spite of Black Templars employing long range weaponry, there's no unique units to Black Templars which are a cut above the rest as far as melee is concerned. And if someone tries to tell me that Crusader Squads are supposed to be that unit, go play a few games with them. They're very difficult to use right when being used as a melee unit. What Black Templars need is their own codex back where they get perks that vanilla Space Marines don't. Extra attacks on the charge may come into that, but it's certainly not going to fix them.

Space Marines don't need Orders.

The rule with Jump Packs, Bikes and Obj Sec would be too easily abused, especially with the Outrider Detachment.

Space Marine Vehicles should not be able to shoot in combat. It takes away the mechanics that make melee units charging vehicles viable not to mention it would make many vehicles very, VERY points efficient.

I agree with others who have said that Imperial Fists should re-roll wounds targeting Vehicles as well as buildings, but maybe make it in the Salamanders sort of thing where its only one re-roll to hit and to wound per unit.

I haven't really play-tested the Primaris much but I will say this about the Repulser: It has at least the potential for a lot more firepower than a Land Raider, so at least on paper it is worth the points.

A good start would be chapter tactics expansion to vehicle depending on the chapters. A good portion of space marines arsenal of vehicle feel lackluster. Everything but pred/rhino/razorback more generally.

I think Imperial Fists should drop the second half of their Chapter Tactics and either only ever be able to take a maximum of -1 to hit no matter how many effects are in place, or reroll 1s to hit if they don't move (the first part of Grim Resolve).

To be honest, if Imperial Fists had Grim Resolve as Siege Masters it would fit them so much better.

Honestly, many of the Chapters could stand to have an alternate Chapter Tactic available to them. I could see the following:

Imperial Fists: Grim Resolve
White Scars: Dark Raiders
Black Templars: Butcher's Nails or Flawless Perfection
Raven Guard: Terror Tactics (honestly, giving them the first half of Bolter Drill and maybe something different than the building wrecking would work. They are supposed to be expert snipers).

I'd say that if primaris could go in normal vehicles but take up 2 spots. Or maybe same restrictions as terminators (can put them in land raiders). IDK, just seems odd for marines to not be allowed to ride in marines vehicles.

Then, I'd honestly think it fair if chapter tactics applied to all marines units, not just infantry, bikes, and dreads. I mean, it looks like all other races get that, and it would seem fair for it to happen to marines (and chaos marines).

It also always seems like marines are pretty lackluster in close combat.

Having said all that, the amount of shooting and rerolls that marines get access to is pretty ridiculous. I'm not certain that they need many buffs.

But then again, I play orks, so marines-level power is generally a distant ceiling.

One thing I forgot to address is the SM vehicles firing in combat. It either needs to be at a -1 to attack or be a 1CP Strategem (with no minus to hit). It basically turns heavy weapons into pistols. That is powerful enough not to come free. Though honestly, that would be a neat way of doing things rather than giving our vehicles Chapter Tactics.

Also, I would like to see Chapter Masters having a special rule called Commander of the Armory, which allows them to board Repulsors. It isn't broken by any means.