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ERJAK wrote:
It's not a huge difference unless you MAKE it a huge difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
PL are not balanced at all.

Case and point, rubrics, I get all their gear for free and because of how rules are written, I can take both a flamer and bolter on all or them.

Also nice break this as well.


Also alphabet soup breaks it pretty badly because his pl did not got up just points

That makes rubrics MORE balanced, not less lol.

You do understand that by using power levels every rubric gets to fire both their flamer AND inferno bolters in the shooting phase per the rules and over watch with both. Each guy would be getting about 20 points of free gear.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
It's not a huge difference unless you MAKE it a huge difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
PL are not balanced at all.

Case and point, rubrics, I get all their gear for free and because of how rules are written, I can take both a flamer and bolter on all or them.

Also nice break this as well.


Also alphabet soup breaks it pretty badly because his pl did not got up just points

That makes rubrics MORE balanced, not less lol.

You do understand that by using power levels every rubric gets to fire both their flamer AND inferno bolters in the shooting phase per the rules and over watch with both. Each guy would be getting about 20 points of free gear.

Yeah. That's an example of something you don't do in a PL game. I honestly can't understand why everyone has this burning craving to find any advantage they can and bring it to a casual game.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
It's not a huge difference unless you MAKE it a huge difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
PL are not balanced at all.

Case and point, rubrics, I get all their gear for free and because of how rules are written, I can take both a flamer and bolter on all or them.

Also nice break this as well.


Also alphabet soup breaks it pretty badly because his pl did not got up just points

That makes rubrics MORE balanced, not less lol.

You do understand that by using power levels every rubric gets to fire both their flamer AND inferno bolters in the shooting phase per the rules and over watch with both. Each guy would be getting about 20 points of free gear.

Yeah. That's an example of something you don't do in a PL game. I honestly can't understand why everyone has this burning craving to find any advantage they can and bring it to a casual game.

I mean, that seems like an example during a discussion about balance of something you very easily COULD do. Just because you impose a note of morality to it doesn't mean it's any less balanced or not. You can do it. It isn't a balanced thing to be able to do.

Here is another example, alphabet soup went up in points, but his power points remained the same.

If everyone is using PL, then the upgrade argument falls apart.

It balances out when both sides use PL and both sides use upgrades.

 wuestenfux wrote:

If everyone is using PL, then the upgrade argument falls apart.

It balances out when both sides use PL and both sides use upgrades.

No it does not at all lol, not even close.

 wuestenfux wrote:
It balances out when both sides use PL and both sides use upgrades.

Assuming both sides have meaningful upgrades to make.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
It balances out when both sides use PL and both sides use upgrades.

Assuming both sides have meaningful upgrades to make.

This, let's take space marines, ok I can kit out a sgt and one heavy and special weapons

Ok now gaunts, they get EVERYTHING. For free.

Meanwhile, the Necrons.... what are upgrades?

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I mean, that seems like an example during a discussion about balance of something you very easily COULD do. Just because you impose a note of morality to it doesn't mean it's any less balanced or not. You can do it. It isn't a balanced thing to be able to do.

Again, this is easilly fixed by being really strict with wysiwyg.


If someone plops down an army and each dude is holding a lazcanon, assault cannon, storm shield and a power sword; then the problem with the game coming is that donkey-cave, not the way the armies are tallied up.

Power level is not a concept that someone that plays iin a min/max waac environment will understand or want to understand, and that is to some degree understandable.

For all you strict WYSIWYGers out there. How do you deal with grenades? I mean do you have to declare which type of grenade the model has as well as how many of each? How about ammo clips? What's an Iron Halo look like? How can I be sure my opponent has the right types of ammo for his weapons (especially if he has ammo choices with his weapon)? Do I have to model a power switch on all my plasma weapons and have them set to the correct setting each time I use it.

I'm saying this partially in jest but all of you "if the model doesn't have it you can't use it" people sound very very serious for a game involving toy soldiers.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For all you strict WYSIWYGers out there. How do you deal with grenades? I mean do you have to declare which type of grenade the model has as well as how many of each? How about ammo clips? What's an Iron Halo look like? How can I be sure my opponent has the right types of ammo for his weapons (especially if he has ammo choices with his weapon)? Do I have to model a power switch on all my plasma weapons and have them set to the correct setting each time I use it.

I'm saying this partially in jest but all of you "if the model doesn't have it you can't use it" people sound very very serious for a game involving toy soldiers.

You take care of your army. I take care of mine. If you are a min-maxing jerk, then thats the last time I'm gonna crack a case of beer and play a PL game with you.

And I was looking forward to fielding 40 infernus pistols!

 davou wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For all you strict WYSIWYGers out there. How do you deal with grenades? I mean do you have to declare which type of grenade the model has as well as how many of each? How about ammo clips? What's an Iron Halo look like? How can I be sure my opponent has the right types of ammo for his weapons (especially if he has ammo choices with his weapon)? Do I have to model a power switch on all my plasma weapons and have them set to the correct setting each time I use it.

I'm saying this partially in jest but all of you "if the model doesn't have it you can't use it" people sound very very serious for a game involving toy soldiers.

You take care of your army. I take care of mine. If you are a min-maxing jerk, then thats the last time I'm gonna crack a case of beer and play a PL game with you.

And this is why power levels are stupid. In a game where for most of its life gear has always been a point cost, to now asign an arbitrary value and say all gear is free is going to break the game.

Power levels are an attempt to being over AoS openness of gear but it does not work because not all weapons are equal and there is str and T to worry about. You will never not find someone that is going to abuse power points, unless you are super strict on what you can bring at which point might as well play a point gaem

 Backspacehacker wrote:


And this is why power levels are stupid. In a game where for most of its life gear has always been a point cost, to now asign an arbitrary value and say all gear is free is going to break the game.

Power levels are an attempt to being over AoS openness of gear but it does not work because not all weapons are equal and there is str and T to worry about. You will never not find someone that is going to abuse power points, unless you are super strict on what you can bring at which point might as well play a point gaem

Its the difference between two options vs 12 options

AoS point systems wont fully work on 40k with out some extensive limitations or just a social contract not to break the game.

The WYSIWYG argument is weird to me. Maybe its because I play at stores and in tournaments, but WYSIWYG is all I've ever done, and it's all anyone I know has every done either. Power Level doesn't impact this. I already have all the wargear I want, now it's just free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
Power level is not a concept that someone that plays iin a min/max waac environment will understand or want to understand, and that is to some degree understandable.

This. They are different worlds, and understandable in their own rights. They can't really infringe upon one another. Power level is for casual play, and that's completely fine.

 Desubot wrote:

AoS point systems wont fully work on 40k with out some extensive limitations or just a social contract not to break the game.

AOS point system doesn't really work in AOS either. Free gear issue exists there too. For example, if you want to field a Free Guild General on foot, without a banner, you're intentionally gimping yourself, as he could have both the banner and a pony for free.

 Crimson wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

AoS point systems wont fully work on 40k with out some extensive limitations or just a social contract not to break the game.

AOS point system doesn't really work in AOS either. Free gear issue exists there too. For example, if you want to field a Free Guild General on foot, without a banner, you're intentionally gimping yourself, as he could have both the banner and a pony for free.

Is that like the only thing? because i havent seen too many things like that. yeah you could take troops without the banner or musician but for the most part everyone gets to take them but asides from the banner musician or champion there arent additional options. so limit 3.

Now there probably are a bunch of complete miss equipment for some factions. nothing is perfect.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 davou wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For all you strict WYSIWYGers out there. How do you deal with grenades? I mean do you have to declare which type of grenade the model has as well as how many of each? How about ammo clips? What's an Iron Halo look like? How can I be sure my opponent has the right types of ammo for his weapons (especially if he has ammo choices with his weapon)? Do I have to model a power switch on all my plasma weapons and have them set to the correct setting each time I use it.

I'm saying this partially in jest but all of you "if the model doesn't have it you can't use it" people sound very very serious for a game involving toy soldiers.

You take care of your army. I take care of mine. If you are a min-maxing jerk, then thats the last time I'm gonna crack a case of beer and play a PL game with you.

And this is why power levels are stupid. In a game where for most of its life gear has always been a point cost, to now asign an arbitrary value and say all gear is free is going to break the game.

Power levels are an attempt to being over AoS openness of gear but it does not work because not all weapons are equal and there is str and T to worry about. You will never not find someone that is going to abuse power points, unless you are super strict on what you can bring at which point might as well play a point gaem

Even less strict systems have worked for decades. What? Are 40k players genetically inferior to other wargamers if PL doesn't work?

the ONLY time PL fails, is when you stick it in the hand of people actively looking for every way to break something that they can find. Those people will break any asymmetric game you let them play anyway.

 davou wrote:
the ONLY time PL fails, is when you stick it in the hand of people actively looking for every way to break something that they can find. Those people will break any asymmetric game you let them play anyway.

or...people just happen to have units kitted in massively different ways already in their collections.

You dont need to try to break PL. Unit capability can vary wildly based on type and number of unit upgrades, which is exactly what PL doesnt take into account. These disparities will arise naturally and frequently without any attempt at breaking anything.

 Desubot wrote:

Is that like the only thing? because i havent seen too many things like that.

It's not the only thing, but stuff like that seems to be more prevalent in the old factions that were ported over from FB.

 Crimson wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Is that like the only thing? because i havent seen too many things like that.

It's not the only thing, but stuff like that seems to be more prevalent in the old factions that were ported over from FB.

I think those mostly end up being example of how negligible most non-weapon unit upgrades actually are. There are quite few easily convertable characters that almost no one uses on a horse because of how little of a difference it actually makes.

Apparently 10 Sternguards all with combi-plasmas cost 14PL, while 10 Tactical Marines cost 10PL and get 2 of them. That doesn't seem fair.

And yes, I do have all these Sternguards with full WYSIWYG.

[EDIT] What if one guy enjoys playing with lots of infantry with no special weapons. Let's say, 20 man Black Templar troops unit with jus bolters or chainswords. Or orks with nothing but Boyz. Or IG with just flashlights. And the other guy prefers to have his units equipped with lots of specialized weapons. Meltas, flamers, power fists etc. Do they still end up with the same number of units? (let's say SM vs SM) Even though one of them has a much higher quality of his troops. And the other guy's tactic of having a sea of cheaper, less equipped units doesn't really work, cause you know, his enemy has as much units. Just better.

On the other hand, if you consider GW's pt system, the points may or may not be accurate.
Some units are overpriced like the Falcon. The pt costs are still too high, although the pts were decreased from the index to the codex.

The point of power level is this -

Both turn up with a case of models at local LGS. Oh you looking for a game? Yeah let's do 50 PL. Then you use what's WYSIWYG in your case for a quick matchmaking experience.

It's overly obvious PL is meant for pick up games, or games where you don't want to spend the time to write a list and work out all your wargear.

It's open to abuse if you use it for the wrong purpose but it just takes a tad bit of common sense to not do that.

 AaronWilson wrote:
The point of power level is this -

Both turn up with a case of models at local LGS. Oh you looking for a game? Yeah let's do 50 PL. Then you use what's WYSIWYG in your case for a quick matchmaking experience.

It's overly obvious PL is meant for pick up games, or games where you don't want to spend the time to write a list and work out all your wargear.

It's open to abuse if you use it for the wrong purpose but it just takes a tad bit of common sense to not do that.

Minor tangent: do people actually do this? It seems kind of weird to me that you just show up at a store/club with a case full of models and no army list for using them. Even playing a pick-up game everyone I know has an army list prepared beforehand. Maybe it may need a minor adjustment up or down depending on your opponent, but this idea of showing up with an army but no list is just completely alien to me.

Slipspace wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
The point of power level is this -

Both turn up with a case of models at local LGS. Oh you looking for a game? Yeah let's do 50 PL. Then you use what's WYSIWYG in your case for a quick matchmaking experience.

It's overly obvious PL is meant for pick up games, or games where you don't want to spend the time to write a list and work out all your wargear.

It's open to abuse if you use it for the wrong purpose but it just takes a tad bit of common sense to not do that.

Minor tangent: do people actually do this? It seems kind of weird to me that you just show up at a store/club with a case full of models and no army list for using them. Even playing a pick-up game everyone I know has an army list prepared beforehand. Maybe it may need a minor adjustment up or down depending on your opponent, but this idea of showing up with an army but no list is just completely alien to me.

I run a local games club which is pretty popular, around 200 active members on the FB group and 15-20 attendees each Tuesday. Sometimes I don't have a game planned and will bring my box Zeerkers, a couple of transports, a couple of dreads and some bang bang tanks. More then a few times someone has come up looking for a game and I've thrown together a list few PL there and then on the spot using WYSIWYG with my models.

It doesn't happen everywhere and 90% of my game are done with points as the intention for games that want to be with a properly constructed list. For games where we just want to goof about for like 2 hours and roll some dice saying "100 PL?" and grabbing models out the case quickly works well.

Power level is used in my area quite often. It is also used exclusively in our campaign.

Important distinction: the competitive guys largely won't touch power level but they are typically preppiing for tournaments and playing waac style, which PL iis not appropriate for anyway.