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"At the end of each phase in which models of the Necron player with this ability were destroyed, that player rolls a dice for each model with this ability that was destroyed. On a 6, that model instead of being removed from the game stands back up and must immediately be placed back in unit coherency more than 1" away from enemy units. Any models that are unable to be setup this way are lost. If all models in the unit are destroyed prior to rolling, the location of the last destroyed model is used as the starting point for unit coherency. Models destroyed and placed back on the battlefield by this ability are not counted as casualties for terms of Morale."
I'm giving a 6 as an example, since it would be a pretty strong system. It's a bit different than a simple FnP but still pretty similar. The biggest differences would be excess damage to the unit would be lost instead of having to roll multiple 6's, but consolidation in CC would deny RP resurrects. It is also does not affect morale losses since they are not destroyed. I know it looks a bit long and complicated but it's pretty easy and I just wanted to make sure as much of the gray area was covered.
Fenris-77 wrote: I'd love to see it go back to per phase, or even after shooting and fight, but before morale. If it went to per phase it might have to be base 5+, but I'd be ok with that. Or after morale but also including casualties from morale.(yeah, right, I know).
I thought it wad already a 5+ base though.
Yeah it is. It's only 4+ if you have a cryptek or if you're playing 3rd ed.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
What do they have in common with necrons?
They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.
Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.
And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.
Nuff said.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/14 20:59:49
What do they have in common with necrons?
They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.
Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.
And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.
Nuff said.
I wouldn't get your expectations too high for changes in the codex. I feel it will be a smaller dex, with mostly just some points changes in it. Similar is probably true with the Tau codex. Certainly don't anticipate many rules changes anyways.
What do they have in common with necrons?
They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.
Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.
And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.
Nuff said.
I wouldn't get your expectations too high for changes in the codex. I feel it will be a smaller dex, with mostly just some points changes in it. Similar is probably true with the Tau codex. Certainly don't anticipate many rules changes anyways.
You are most certainly right, but the thread is about ideas for rules.
Quantity over quality may work just as good.
Make necrons cheap enough so RP is just a cherry on the cake - and many players will swallow it whole, despite their army lack of oomph.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 21:10:06
yup, but a potential way to upgrade the usefulness if the ability of less useful phase-wise is to bump it to 4+. That's way less likely depending on buffs and timing of a new rule.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
I think the res orb stuff could really be a key in making it better. You could leave RP exactly how it is right now if you wanted. Change res orbs to a one shot RP roll for the models once they are wiped. You are still limited by the points you spend on the orbs, the range, and the number of models carrying them. If you are out of range of orbs, better hope you don't get wiped but you still get normal RP rolls. In the range of orbs, you can run up as a suicide unit and still get models back without worrying about being wiped... at least once...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/14 21:16:42
What do they have in common with necrons?
They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.
Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.
And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.
Nuff said.
Sounds like a good idea.. why not make it any model with the RP within 6", they get to roll to get back up. Now there is no point focus firing down until our models are really thinned out. Meaning we will weather those first few deciding rounds of massive gun line shooting and alpha strikes. And sure, thrown in some nice ResOrb trick for nice measures.
What do they have in common with necrons?
They do what RP meant to do, but better and cheaper.
Just tie RP to models instead of units and allow to roll RP if similiar dataslate unit is nearby (say 6”).
Like WBB from 3ed (put model on the side, blablabla). If nobody is around - sry, bro, u’remscrewed, m8.
And orb could allow wiped unit one chance to gather themselves if nobody is around (in addition to re-roll), so you could decide weather you babysit your warriors bloab with another warriors bloab or with a Lord carrying ResOrb.
Nuff said.
That's sounds like a nice idea, but if you are reintroducing that mechanic might as well give the spyder it's old repair rule back.
An easier solution to RP, and the one we are more likely to get, is that the codex contains 2 or 3 defensive stratagems which punish focus fire. This immediately makes RP better.
Spoletta wrote: An easier solution to RP, and the one we are more likely to get, is that the codex contains 2 or 3 defensive stratagems which punish focus fire. This immediately makes RP better.
How would you punish focus fire? I also agree I don't think they will change the core mehcanics of RP.
What if we had a unit that could redirect enemy fire?
Like, you have this unit that has an AoE effect around it, and if enemies try to shoot a unit in this AoE, there's a chance some of the shots are redirected to hit the AoE's source, which is pretty tanky.
That might be an interesting mechanic, and would tie in with the Necron tendency to bring interesting and gimmicky tools to the fight.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Spoletta wrote: An easier solution to RP, and the one we are more likely to get, is that the codex contains 2 or 3 defensive stratagems which punish focus fire. This immediately makes RP better.
How would you punish focus fire? I also agree I don't think they will change the core mehcanics of RP.
Punishing focused fire via stratagem wouldn't be hard. You make the strategy defensive, and really good for the CP cost, but it can only be used after the unit has taken a casualty that round. Just to spitball an example, call it "Darkness Field" - for 1CP it makes that unit -2 to be hit for the rest of the shooting phase but can only be used on a unit that has taken a casualty (to 'activate the field'). I'm sure with some thought it could be cooler, but that's just what occurred to me right now. I don't think it would be hard in general to do in general though. Another example, "Repair Nanites" gives the unit +2 armor for the rest of the shooting phase, but only if the unit has taken a casualty in the shooting phase. Shizz like that. You could also split ideas like that in half and have +1/-1 come from a static buff, and then have stratagems that stack with the buff, activated as described above.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
All strategems that can be activated in response to an attack are good for this. If you can declare a +1 save after you declared the attack, then you never know if you can finish that unit or not. This gives a lot of value to RP since you now have a say in the matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/15 14:17:51
Started collecting Necrons last year and just signed up to reply to this thread.
I think there's a few things you could do that would address core weaknesses of the Necrons in fluffy ways that could perhaps make them feel more unique.
As many have already said, Reanimation Protocols doesn't play well against opponents who know what they're doing and will just aim to delete your important units like Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers in their first turn.
Canoptek Units, as we're told in the fluff, build and maintain damaged Necrons on the Tomb World. As I recall, the purpose of phase shifting was to allow Wraiths to perform deep repairs. So, scaling their ability with their cost, Canoptek units should be able to assist reanimation or resurrect units entirely. Scarabs could attempt to bring back D3 destroyed models per turn. Spyders meanwhile could hover over to the site of destroyed models and bring back D6 on their own or roll to resurrect destroyed units entirely.
Currently Resurrection Orbs are just a way to re-roll RP. They should, as the name implies, be able to bring back the dead even if the unit is destroyed. You would leave a marker where a destroyed unit fell and then any unit carrying an orb could bring back that unit if it gets with 6".
This would give you more reasons to bring Lords besides a cheap way to fill HQ slots. Which brings me onto another area: wargear and abilities.
As it stands, your basic Cryptek only has two passive abilities, Chronometron and Technomancer. This could be expanded easily in ways that would make Necrons more resilient and add to their unique flavour. To start here are some ideas for gear/abilities you could give to Crypteks:
Gloom Prisms: easy enough, gives the Cryptek the option to deny psykers.
Quantum Shield Generators: Either as a piece of wargear or a CP option, allow Crypteks to drop a quantum shielding field on themselves and units within a few inches.
Dispersion Shielding: Similar to the above, but essentially replacing the Chronometron with an equivalent that reflects damage back on a 6 (Lychguard Shields should do the same in addition to the invulnerable save)
Tesseract Labyrinth: This could work as a grenade or activate when an enemy unit charges within range, and function similarly to the Portal of Exile, essentially sucking in enemy models and depositing them in an empty dimension...
Phantom Projection/Camouflage: This could work as a way that makes your units either harder to see, or projects phantom images of your units, confusing them and making your units harder to target. Either way, all enemies firing at them fire with -1 Ballistic Skill.
Dread Projector: Similar to the above, the Crpytek projects ghastly images that reduce the leadership of enemy units that stray into its radius.
To expand the tactical options available to Lords and Overlords, a suite of different combat Protocols that could be activated on Necron units would also make Lords more attractive and give the Necrons ways to either double down on their strengths or cover their shortcomings. Her'es a few I've thought of:
Extermination Protocols: When activated, a friendly infantry unit within range will inflict Mortal Wounds on a wound roll of 6
Annihilation Protocols: When activated, a friendly unit within range receives -1 AP to their ranged weapon profile. This would work to make Gauss weapons even deadlier, or Tesla weapons more effective against tough targets.
Invasion Protocols: When activated, add +2 to a friendly unit's movement and charge distances, ranged weapons temporarily fire as if they had the Assault profile.
Sentry Protocols: When activated, select an infantry unit within range. It receives +1 to Ballistic Skill and can make an additional shooting attack when firing Overwatch.
Extraction Protocols: When activated, the selected unit immediately phases out and returns to the Tomb World. They can then be redeployed the following by a Monolith or Night Scythe, either returning at full strength or after rolling for Reanimation as if they were still on the table.
Acceptable Losses: This ability when active allows your ranged units to fire on an enemy unit, even if it is tied up in melee-combat with either your own Necron Warriors or Canoptek Scarabs. I feel this would give you some interesting options on the battlefield and would also mesh well with the depictions of Dynastic Lords and Overlords as generally cruel and uncaring for the lesser ranks of the Necron hierarchy. I'd have to think more about how you'd apply it in terms of a pay off - I guess you'd have to roll for all visible units within an inch of enemy models and make hit and wound rolsl for them too. Sounds dicey, but could be very effective. For example, bogging down terminators with Scarabs then firing into the melee with Immortals.
Lastly, for some final random ideas, it would be nice either as an ability or CP use to "reverse the polarity" of Quantum Shielding, so that for one turn if you roll over the inflicted damage it is ignored. In this instance, on all but the roll of a 1, wounds from single damage weapons can be ignored.
As much as it would actually remove some possible buffing applications, it doesn't make sense for me that Flayed Ones have the Dynasty Keyword. They've been afflicted by a virus that drives them mad, they shouldn't really have the same loyalties as other infantry.
It'd be nice if there was a way to turbocharge your tesla attacks so that they are capable of branching to nearby models. Like a smaller version of Imotekh's Lord of the Storm, except it just deals regular wounds.
Anyway, that's what I've brainstormed. Changes to RP makes it possible to recover destroyed units and also giving you other ways to reanimate fallen units that are still on the table. Changes to Crypteks and Lords/Overlords give more flavour to the army and give you a range of tools to protect your units during enemy turns and make them more effective in situational ways during your your own turn. With abilities like this at your disposal, the lack of an offensive psychic phase is mitigated. You may be unable to dish out mortal wounds but your abilities would have no charge values to manifest, nor perils of the warp to risk. Obviously your choice of combat protocol to activate is singular, Invasion Protocols could get you to the objective or into the fight, but you could have given Extermination Protocols to another unit.
I think a great strategem would be: 1CP use this strategem when a unit with RP has lost its last model as a casualty. Before removing the last remaining model you may roll for RP. Any models gained from this m ust be placed within 6" of the last remaining model. Reanimation Protocols fixed!
I like the res orb idea. The mechanic of the current RP really makes it easy to be either OP or useless (on some units) if tweaked in the wrong way.
A lot of playtesting needs to be done and I would guess that GW probably have tried out different mechanics.
What makes a big difference is if units are in cover and getting that +1 save. For example Immortals and Deathmarks in cover are a pain to kill. So increasing the save on some select units (Destroyers, Lychguard and Praetorians) and perhaps changing the Crypteks 5++ to a +1 to saves is a solution that keeps the current RP. Warriors with 3+ save would wither a lot more fire as would Destroyers with a 1+ in cover.
How about two new rules on every unit (and costed accordingly)
Phase out: when this unit loses its last model or fails a morale test, remove it from the battlefield a different place it in tombworld deployment. This unit receives a cumulative - 1 to reanimation protocol every time it phases out.
Phase in: if this unit was placed in tombworld deployment from the battlefield. Deepstrike it at the end of your movement phase.
Necrons definitely have a lot of problems. First the good:
1. I like Quantum Shielding. It's a rule that ties to the background very well and does what it should.
2. RP is a great idea and I like the way they've tried to streamline the implementation of it. Making it a roll at the start of a turn instead of an extra save means your opponent's never quite sure how effective their shooting has been (but see problems below) and I hated having markers scattered all over the table under previous iterations of the rule.
Unfortunately the army has a lot of problems. The RP problem against focus fire is the most obvious one. I think allowing RP even after being wiped out might be a good solution, probably on a 6+ and maybe only once so if the unit is wiped out again it can't come back. It's just too easy to wipe a unit at the moment. Changing the timing to start of Morale phase would also be a help as it would then prevent the problem of units dying to Morale so easily if your opponent falls just short of wiping out a blob of 20 Warriors.
Anti tank and multi-damage is a huge issue too. Necrons went from having some of the best anti tank in 7th to the worst in 8th. All our anti-tank weapons are on platforms that are too easy to destroy or too expensive for what they do. We have very limited access to multi-damage weapons. Compare the cost of a Destroyer to a Hive Guard - it's depressing. This problem is often exacerbated by, ironically, QS. Because D6 damage weapons are often not great against our vehicles all our units with 2W or 3W tend to get shot by weapons that do D6 damage and die very quickly.
Mobility is a huge problem. This is at least characterful but with transports being expensive or nearly non-functional in the case of the flyers it can be difficult to control the battlefield properly. I'd be happy for this to stay as a Necron weakness but a few more options here might be good.
I think giving Warriors a 3+ save again might help a lot. I'd also like to see more access to D2 or D3 damage weapons too. At the moment the combination of high Strength, low Damage on a lot of our guns really hurts us. 8th edition requires you to have high damage output to efficiently deal with tanks and monsters and we are sorely lacking.
Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/16 14:37:49
p5freak wrote: Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.
Wouldn't that make going into cover useless?
Also, the whole point of Necrons is that they don't die and always come back sooner or later. How is making the saving throw 1 better going to represent the Necrons unique-rule? That would mean that any model that dies can't even come back making us the most useless army in the 40k universe and might as well "Squat" us.
Yes, quantum shielding is a great mechanic. Strangely it's in some way similiar to RP since it can be bypassed with low damage weapons. Don't get me wrong there should always be ways to counter some mechanics, the game becomes more tactical in that way.
I actually like the way RP works currently. However it needs a minor tweak or as I wrote earlier perhaps the best way is to make Necron units tougher in some way making the units more difficult to wipe.
3+ saves on Warriors would help a lot. Not sure where that would leave the Immortals since a 2+ on them might be too much. That's why I suggested that a Cryptec should increase the save by +1 instead of giving a 5++ save.
As for anti tank that could be easily fixed by minor tweaks.
- Doomsday Ark: Change to Heavy 3, change big gun to assault when moving.
- Stalker: Points drop
- Heavy Destroyers: Points drop, increase save to 2+
- Destroyers: Points drop, increase save to 2+, Gauss cannon to S7 (too much?)
- Annihilation Barge: Points drop and a S7 Gauss cannon
- Monolith: Points drop, 2+ save, change eternity gate rule
- Doom Scythe: Points drop, give big gun +1 to hit ground targets, increase to T7
- Crypteks: Reintroduce a lot of the wargear such as Eldritch Lance
- Gauss weapons: if the above is not enough give gauss weapons some bonus when rolling sixes to hit.
I've only given suggestions for units with Heavy weapons, but many other units also needs a points drop and/or tweak.
RP would function better as an army wide 6+ FNP. A tomb world can boost it to 5+.
Instead of psychic powers they should get something similar like iterative builds, where you can manifest abilities on a 2d6 score. Since Psykers would not be able to deny, it would make for some interesting stuff. instead of perils you have glitches. Anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/16 16:04:51
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: RP would function better as an army wide 6+ FNP. A tomb world can boost it to 5+.
Instead of psychic powers they should get something similar like iterative builds, where you can manifest abilities on a 2d6 score. Since Psykers would not be able to deny, it would make for some interesting stuff. instead of perils you have glitches. Anyway.
Necrons had a 5+ steroid FNP in 7th.
The idea of RP is to make a unique mechanic for Necons.
In older editions Crypteks had special wargear that were specific for each discipline.
Not sure if it will come back since the Veil of Darkness was one such item and that has become a relic now.
But hopefully they will introduce a few disciplines with different rules, powers or wargear.
An anti psycher Cryptek would be nice, but situational.
p5freak wrote: Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.
No, sorry, that's a terrible idea. That completely undermines the feel of the necron army.
Necrons do not get bonus armor. Necrons do not get FNP. They are not death guard. Necrons come back from the dead. That is how a necron do.
How would you like it if they took away Black rage and just went "you rerolls 1 now in cc, because simple "? That would be bs, wouldn't it?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/16 16:55:29
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Marmatag wrote: RP would function better as an army wide 6+ FNP. A tomb world can boost it to 5+.
Instead of psychic powers they should get something similar like iterative builds, where you can manifest abilities on a 2d6 score. Since Psykers would not be able to deny, it would make for some interesting stuff. instead of perils you have glitches. Anyway.
Necrons had a 5+ steroid FNP in 7th.
The idea of RP is to make a unique mechanic for Necons.
In older editions Crypteks had special wargear that were specific for each discipline.
Not sure if it will come back since the Veil of Darkness was one such item and that has become a relic now.
But hopefully they will introduce a few disciplines with different rules, powers or wargear.
An anti psycher Cryptek would be nice, but situational.
Yeah, the cryptek disciplines were a cool idea. No idea why they removed them.
You know what would be a great anti-psy unit? Pariahs.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
~4100
~1660
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
