Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Machs wrote:

Iracundus wrote:



A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still long enough to enact long term reform.

Well, the very decision to re-estabilish the greater Ultrama may be seen as an attempt to reform the Imperium... replacing it, or at least providing a benchmark which has proven to function for well more than 10,000 years.

In imperial terms it also secures his heavily defended home sector and recourses. The 500 world's is a good asset to hold.

He may be a imperial regent, but always handy to have your own reliable resources available. Guaranteed loyalty is helpful when in power.

Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Machs wrote:
Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Benchmark? More like lofty ambition.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Machs wrote:
Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Benchmark? More like lofty ambition.

both really, Gulliman wants Ultramar to be a model for the rest of the IoM to aspire to

Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

Machs wrote:
Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

Err... wot?

Machs wrote:
Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

It seems to mean. You can look to borders and see ultramar sector. A well run and fairly decent area of space by 40k standards anyway.

You look to other worlds. You try and copy ultramar abit and use its ideas to improve your own existence I guess?

 jhe90 wrote:

Machs wrote:
Well, you are an Imperial Commander bordering to Ultramar and you can see how things are dealt with by your neighbours... a more rational approach to be sure. It may be that you, Imperial Commander of the famed planet Nikkeldepain, try to imitate their policy making.

It seems to mean. You can look to borders and see ultramar sector. A well run and fairly decent area of space by 40k standards anyway.

You look to other worlds. You try and copy ultramar abit and use its ideas to improve your own existence I guess?

Yes, that's the logic. Ultramar as an example of what the Imperium may become (or at least your world).

Machs wrote:
Absolutely yes, the 500 Worlds are the personal power base of Guillmann, and at the same time the benchmark for Imperial worlds.

Yep. His personal fortress zone of space, where necessary knows he has allies. And knows he had loyalty of its fleets, armies and marines.

You'd be mad not to reinforce your own sector as enemi stalk you. If you need reliable men. Ultramar. If things go bad. Your world's are now stronger, more of them and gives you a better base to hold out in till things blow over.

The stronger your home zone. The stronger your own position.

Machs wrote:
Ultramar as an example of what the Imperium may become (or at least your world).

Don't talk to me about Cadia.

Cadia holds the line of the spirit!

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Machs wrote:
Ultramar as an example of what the Imperium may become (or at least your world).

Don't talk to me about Cadia.

Cadia broke before the guard did!

 CursedMagi wrote:
None that I have heard of. Although I am unaware as to what makes primaris marines more special than tacticools. I might pick some up if the stats are good though, and they fit in my army functionality wise.

quick in-game summary:

Each primaris is generally the equal to two standard marines in wounds and firepower output. They have less options (no heavy or special weapons members) and most can only alternate their main gun. They are an effective but expensive addition to your list.

Fluff wise they are new, improved marines with 2 additional organs and a purer geneseed stock. The initial batches were frozen in cryo and brought out for a nearly imperium spanning crusade and then used as reinforcements for existing chapters.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 CursedMagi wrote:
None that I have heard of. Although I am unaware as to what makes primaris marines more special than tacticools. I might pick some up if the stats are good though, and they fit in my army functionality wise.

quick in-game summary:

Each primaris is generally the equal to two standard marines in wounds and firepower output. They have less options (no heavy or special weapons members) and most can only alternate their main gun. They are an effective but expensive addition to your list.

Fluff wise they are new, improved marines with 2 additional organs and a purer geneseed stock. The initial batches were frozen in cryo and brought out for a nearly imperium spanning crusade and then used as reinforcements for existing chapters.

They don't have twice the firepower. Per wound, they have half the volume, if slightly better quality.

Hey there EmpNorthonII
You said that

At least one Chapter (Carcharodons) have obtained their Primaris marines from non-Gulliman sources.

Just curious where this Information comes from.

There is a joke about the failures of online dating in here somewhere...

... Your profile said your were only 8 feet tall.

Is that a problem?

Well, starting off a relationship with a lie is kinda...

I have three extra organs.

Check, please!

 darkcloak wrote:
There is a joke about the failures of online dating in here somewhere...

... Your profile said your were only 8 feet tall.

Is that a problem?

Well, starting off a relationship with a lie is kinda...

I have three extra organs.

Check, please!

This is even funnier if you remember that the old fluff puts Marines as having no sex drive whatsoever.

"Take me!"

"...Where?"

 Zakiriel wrote:
Hey there EmpNorthonII
You said that

At least one Chapter (Carcharodons) have obtained their Primaris marines from non-Gulliman sources.

Just curious where this Information comes from.

Robbie MacNiven on FB -

Yeah, haha the old fluff.

Some of that was pretty good, but throwing in the no sex drive thing was kinda like...

Like that had the opposite effect.

I'm sure if you tried to Google it, the internet is full of that sort of fan art.

On topic and totally not making jokes about Oldmarines going on blind dates with Primarines now.

That's a very interesting bit about the Carcharodons. If I went back to Oldmarines I'd pick them, so awesome. However I'm making a small Ultima Founding chapter that got roflstomped by some as of yet unknown baddies. This is mostly because I don't want to buy a hundred numarines! But my question is this, how likely is it that a chapter of new guys who really messed up and got wiped is going to be rebuilt? Are the older chapters going to help them or just leave them to their fate?

Like, all the chapters got reinforced with Primaris Marines, or most of them right? BrB makes it sound like the Primaris Marines are generally well accepted, but how long is that going to last?

My idea for a chapter of numarines kind of revolves around the idea that they are not very well liked and have a lot to prove to other chapters. I mean, there has to be some anti-primaris sentiment out there. The galaxy is too awful a place for everyone to just be pals. Especially giant man children warriors who have a history of betrayal and infighting.

Non-Guilliman sources could mean Custodes, as the Custodes Codex does say they have acted as emissaries bringing the Primaris Marines to Chapters, and ensuring they accept, which they do due to the Custodes's status as bodyguards/representatives of the Emperor.

Iracundus wrote:
Non-Guilliman sources could mean Custodes, as the Custodes Codex does say they have acted as emissaries bringing the Primaris Marines to Chapters, and ensuring they accept, which they do due to the Custodes's status as bodyguards/representatives of the Emperor.

that'd be a safe bet yeah

I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Turned on Sanguinis? hardly, they fought and argued but thats hardly a turn on, and by the end of ruinstorm it seems gulliman, sanguinis and the lion had all come to terms and developed respect for one another.

that's the thing, the people who think everyone hates Gulliman? thats them PROJECTING their own views of the character onto everyone else. and yes some chapters may have resisted gulliman alone, but he also had the custode with him telling them this is a gift from the emperor. not something to be refused.

you need to look at it from this point of view, Literally the last living Primarch comes down to you, wielding the sword of the emperor, flanked by the custodes telling you these new troops are emperor gifted..

that's some pretty heavy stuff.

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Primaris are Cawl's creation (his, and huge team of magos biologis', most likely) not Guilliman's. Chapters can still think that Guilliman is a asshat, and recognise the value of improved warriors.

BrianDavion wrote:

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Turned on Sanguinis? hardly, they fought and argued but thats hardly a turn on, and by the end of ruinstorm it seems gulliman, sanguinis and the lion had all come to terms and developed respect for one another.

that's the thing, the people who think everyone hates Gulliman? thats them PROJECTING their own views of the character onto everyone else. and yes some chapters may have resisted gulliman alone, but he also had the custode with him telling them this is a gift from the emperor. not something to be refused.

you need to look at it from this point of view, Literally the last living Primarch comes down to you, wielding the sword of the emperor, flanked by the custodes telling you these new troops are emperor gifted..

that's some pretty heavy stuff.

That's the thing tha players seem to forget: how the Imperium's religious mentality affects the view. Yes I would argue the Marines are effectively religious despite their denials. Guilliman is more than just a superhero giant. In the view of Imperials, he is the equivalent of an archangel. Myths are told about him and the other Primarchs. Add on the Custodes accompanying him, as symbolic approval of the Emperor, and refusing to accept is tantamount to refusing a direct commandment from God.

Guilliman didn't get on players' nerves that much in 2nd edition. If anything he was overlooked as bland or boring. It was not until Ward went overboard that there was this backlash. Guilliman was probably the best of the loyalist Primarchs to bring back (or the best first one) because his particular flair was for logistics and administration, and that is arguably the most important thing if the goal is to rejuvenate the Imperium as a whole. Such talents might seem boring in the context of a war game with super powered character combat monsters, but logistics, economics, and grand strategy is what is important on the scale of the Imperium.

I remember the days, those heady ancient days, back before it was cool to hate the Ultramarines. If not for their golden standard, none of the non-codex compliant chapters would be as unique.

There's a part of me that wants to paint up an Ultramarines Primaris force to inject a bit of the flavor from the Dornian Heresy alternate fiction (an excellent read) where the Empire of Ultramar are seperatists, who actually have more advanced weapons and armor than that of the Imperium, as they did not have a problem with innovation.

Makes more sense in the modern fluff of the 'Dark Imperium' than most of the actual Cawl story, and gives a better reason for the always inevitable marines vs. marines battles. Simple issue of calling all the successors home and rearming them in the face of everything collapsing. Would also give a nice flaw to the Ultramarines, as they take care of their own first.

 Crimson wrote:

 WarpSpider1 wrote:
I'm not sure why the love fest for Guilliman is here......

Outside of the Ultramarines, he's not well liked. He managed to piss off everyone but Manus, Vulkan, and Khan. He berated Corax in front of his brothers, turned on Sanguinius after crowing him Emperor 2.0, went to blows with the Lion and almost with Russ. He also just barely got Dorn to follow his path. Sure the others Chapters would respect him, insofar as he is a son of the Emperor, but they owe him no fealty. After reading Horus Heresy, the only reason why the other First and Second Founding Chapters are accepting his Primaris marines are because someone at GW has a raging Ultramarine boner. The only in universe explanation that is possible, is Guilliman ORDERED the other chapters to accept them. After all, not even the Great Wolf can refuse an order from the Lord Commander of the Imperium <insert eye roll>

Primaris are Cawl's creation (his, and huge team of magos biologis', most likely) not Guilliman's. Chapters can still think that Guilliman is a asshat, and recognise the value of improved warriors.

This is the Imperium of Man in the 41st millennium, suspicion and closed mindedness are the status quo and everything done by the Emperor is treated as being divine and holy. For some Mechanicus magos to take one of His creations (the gene seeds for the adeptus astartes) and manipulate it to be "better" is heresy of the highest magnitude. To think some lowly mortal/robot/whatever can make something better than the Emperor himself could make is both insulting to the Emperor, tech heresy, and possibly a plot by Chaos to corrupt the Emperor's work. I would see other chapters accepting the leadership of Gulliman well before accepting this corrupted geneseed into their fold.

Except a holy son of the Emperor is saying accept the Primaris as sanctioned gifts of the Emperor. The Custodes who are physically closest in actual distance to the Emperor are saying accept the Primaris as intended gifts of the Emperor. Both of these sources stand higher in the Imperial religious hierarchy of knowing the Emperor's will than "mere" Space Marines. Refusing the Emperor's gifts and resisting the Emperor's intentions is heresy.

Iracundus wrote:
Except a holy son of the Emperor is saying accept the Primaris as sanctioned gifts of the Emperor. The Custodes who are physically closest in actual distance to the Emperor are saying accept the Primaris as intended gifts of the Emperor. Both of these sources stand higher in the Imperial religious hierarchy of knowing the Emperor's will than "mere" Space Marines. Refusing the Emperor's gifts and resisting the Emperor's intentions is heresy.

and the marines have been told this. The Hammer's of Dorn, an ultra orthadox codex following chapter, noted to have a chip on their shoulder re the Ultramarines (they basicly aspire to be better at the UMs game thewn the UMs) where told by the Custodes..

"Through the artiface of the Martian Preisthood where these warriors created. By the grace of the almighty Emperor are they given now to you.Silence your questions and instead rejoice at the honor done to you this day. You are handed the gift of hope by the Immortal Master of Mankind himself, and you will accedpt it with sincere and solemn gradtiude, lest you be taken for the traitors you so profess to hate"

so yeah there's no real room here, the Custodes are outright saying "This is the Emperor's will. you WILL take the Primaris Marines." and the folks saying this are the branch of the Custodes best noted for divineing the emperor's will.

Someone reminded me that in the Dark Imperium novel that Cawl mentions that the Primaris marines are integrated into 94% of all space marine chapters. Some possible canidates:

* Chapters on pentient crusades (altough the carchadons have received primaris)
* Chapters out of contact with the Imperium
* The rare ultra-ultra-orthodox chapter or one that is trying to hide renegade leanings. If the soul drinkers were still around, I don't see Gulliman handing them geneseed of any sort.