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the_scotsman wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?

I don't think you understand the new plot. This is all build-up to the release of the exciting new model range of PrimEVIL marines! Reinforcements of much, much taller, highly different evil space marines to buyiiiii mean play with.

Fortunately the TS and DG kits are on the same scale as Primaris, which of course doesn't preclude the possibility of BL getting Primaris.

 nintura wrote:
Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?

I don't think it means legions are on their way out. I think now that chaos invasions can occur literally anywhere, the only way it is really possible to explain e.g. world eaters having the numbers to appear all over the galaxy, is to have each invasion composed of maybe a few thousand world eaters at the head of billions of daemons, insurrectionists, traitors, etc. All this does it put chaos army composition more in line with the imperial fluff that space marines are rare and the majority is made up of guard. The elite guys don't feel elite when they make up most of the line infantry.

This (in theory) shouldn't affect how pure legions play on the table, there will always be the option to have 100% of your army as power armour dudes + vehicles, with the option of adding monsters and heretics to the mix if you want a supported force. IMO this new approach is really helping chaos stand against other factions, what with power armour units being a bit sub-par in 8th. Now we have a wider range of units to pick from according to what we need, e.g. walls of chaff.

The only problem is when (like in the TS codex) the older PA options get less attention than the new stuff. But it can be amazing when done right. Really adds to the feel of chaos as more than evil spess muhrines

For example, at 2k points my typical DG army rarely has more power armour in it than 2 x 5 plague marines, some characters and maybe a blightlord squad (plus tanks). But when fielded alongside the chaff, the marines really give off the feel of "Oh, S***, these guys are tough mothers". Especially when your opponent is in a position where they are forced to deal with the fodder and has limited resources to try and go for the marines - the look of desperation as they realise the plague marines are too tough to deal with atm is just beautiful.

Edited for clarity

 hippyjr wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?

I don't think it means legions are on their way out. I think now that chaos invasions can occur literally anywhere, the only way it is really possible to explain e.g. world eaters having the numbers to appear all over the galaxy, is to have each invasion composed of maybe a few thousand world eaters at the head of billions of daemons, insurrectionists, traitors, etc. All this does it put chaos army composition more in line with the imperial fluff that space marines are rare and the majority is made up of guard. The elite guys don't feel elite when they make up most of the line infantry.

This (in theory) shouldn't affect how pure legions play on the table, there will always be the option to have 100% of your army is power armour dudes + armour, with the option of adding monsters and heretics to the mix if you want a supported force. IMO this new approach is really helping chaos stand against other factions, what with power armour units being a bit sub-par in 8th. Now we have a wider range of units to pick from according to what we need, e.g. walls of chaff.

The only problem is when (like in the TS codex) the older PA options get less attention than the new stuff. But it can be amazing when done right. Really adds to the feel of chaos as more than evil spess muhrines

For example, at 2k points my typical DG army rarely has more power armour in it than 2 x 5 plague marines, some characters and maybe a blightlord squad (plus tanks). But when fielded alongside the chaff, the marines really give off the feel of "Oh, S***, these guys are tough mothers". Especially when your opponent is in a position where they are forced to deal with the fodder and has limited resources to try and go for the marines - the look of desperation as they realise the plague marines are too tough to deal with atm is just beautiful.

And yet, loyalist chapters only have a thousand marines and still appear everywhere.

 nintura wrote:
And yet, loyalist chapters only have a thousand marines and still appear everywhere.

Yep. I've lost hope that they're ever going to treat SM as anything other than the special faction, but I can at least take solace in the fact that CSM has gained at little bit more depth since last edition.

 nintura wrote:
Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?

Well, having a virtually untouchable stronghold to fall back to (the eye of terror) when they do need to recover and rebuild (for those that do, no idea how their are WEs still around), having almost entirely immortal and countless daemonic allies who are virtually impossible to put a real lasting dent in, drawing in a steady stream of new chaos marines due to renegade chapters/marines, and making usage of expandable cultists and mutants to blunt their own losses all come to mind.

Oh, and the whole "has access to millennia old veterans empowered by the chaos gods" doesn't hurt.

The legions don't need to be carbon copies of vanilla SM to be a threat.

Everyone keeps pointing out that the rubrics didn't get any stratagems of their own. Which is a valid criticism but I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail. They didn't even bother to put a simple re-roll failed psychic tests for 1 or 2 CP, which i would think is a no brainier for the thousands sons.

superbit415 wrote:
I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail.

stratagems: +2 if next to two other casters, +1 if you roll well on the boon of tzeentch table (unlikely but still possible),
WL trait: +1 to cast
Unique characters: one with +1 to cast, one with +2 and a 9" reroll 1 bubble for psykers
terminator sorcerer: familiar gives +1 to first cast attempt each turn
tzaangor shaman: one use potion to reroll a failed psychic test
psychic power: gaze of fate = reroll one dice
and the standard use 1CP to reroll 1 dice


From what I can see there's a lot of ways to boost your psychic phase. There's even a relic to try and regain some CP that you might burn boosting your casting chances. Even without ahriman/magnus you can get +3 casts (+4 with insane luck) with an optional reroll for each dice, just in case you absolutely NEED to cast a spell.

Most of these aren't stratagems, as you said, but there are a lot of options to work around that.

 hippyjr wrote:

superbit415 wrote:
I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail.

stratagems: +2 if next to two other casters, +1 if you roll well on the boon of tzeentch table (unlikely but still possible),
WL trait: +1 to cast
Unique characters: one with +1 to cast, one with +2 and a 9" reroll 1 bubble for psykers
terminator sorcerer: familiar gives +1 to first cast attempt each turn
tzaangor shaman: one use potion to reroll a failed psychic test
psychic power: gaze of fate = reroll one dice
and the standard use 1CP to reroll 1 dice


From what I can see there's a lot of ways to boost your psychic phase. There's even a relic to try and regain some CP that you might burn boosting your casting chances. Even without ahriman/magnus you can get +3 casts (+4 with insane luck) with an optional reroll for each dice, just in case you absolutely NEED to cast a spell.

Most of these aren't stratagems, as you said, but there are a lot of options to work around that.

Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.

Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?

I don't think you understand the new plot. This is all build-up to the release of the exciting new model range of PrimEVIL marines! Reinforcements of much, much taller, highly different evil space marines to buyiiiii mean play with.

Fortunately the TS and DG kits are on the same scale as Primaris, which of course doesn't preclude the possibility of BL getting Primaris.

Um.. no. Thousand sons are a few millimeters shorter than Primaris marines, and that is with the TS standing on more or less straight legs, and Primaris bensing their legs quite a bit..

Zhan wrote:
Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.

The point I was trying to make was that TS have lots of ways to boost their psykers. But what you say is true, there is nothing specifically for exalted sorcerers,
Even taking out the methods that require specific models/the warlord, there are still 3 small boosts you can use (two single dice rerolls and the +2 for bunching up) - I'm not adding the boon as that is not even close to reliable.

So if you are trying to cast a big spell that could swing the game, you could at least have someone cast gaze of fate, maybe also burn a CP for a reroll for at least a fair chance to cast.

 hippyjr wrote:

Zhan wrote:
Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.

The point I was trying to make was that TS have lots of ways to boost their psykers. But what you say is true, there is nothing specifically for exalted sorcerers,
Even taking out the methods that require specific models/the warlord, there are still 3 small boosts you can use (two single dice rerolls and the +2 for bunching up) - I'm not adding the boon as that is not even close to reliable.

So if you are trying to cast a big spell that could swing the game, you could at least have someone cast gaze of fate, maybe also burn a CP for a reroll for at least a fair chance to cast.

You cannot use the re-roll stratagem in the psychic phase due to perils of the warp. Aspiring (1W) and scarab occult sorcerers (2W) have a 100% and 50% of blowing up instantly when they suffer a single perils of the warp. In most case requiring you not only take a away the sorcerer but also a additional models from the unit (mortal wounds spill over) + you have to do D3 wounds to anything nearby. If you play with TS and you will find that you cant use the re-roll stratagem in a psychic phase due to the constant liability of getting screwed over by a perils throw.

And big spells. i don't agree that TS have such big spells at all. All single use spells are still maxed at D3 wounds. No more potent then a regular smite and certainly nothing approaching what some shooting/assault units can do.

Yes we get the +2 to cast stratagem but aside from paying command points and having an another requirement, we also have access to THE ONLY two WC9 spells in the game.
Why would i be happy i got a +2 stratagem so i attempt to cast a WC9 spell when other armies have powers that don't go high than WC7/8 ?

EDIT: All of this could have been easily fixed if exalted sorcerers would have gotten the re-roll 1 on psychic tests instead of a re-roll 1 to hit. It would leave them as superior choice in casting spells over a daemon prince + they would protect the rubrics/scarabs from being suicide bombers and helping all units in casting those WC7+ powers.

Ah... forgot about saving the reroll for perils

As for big spells, I was referring to death hex or dombolt. Something that is difficult to cast (WC8 or higher) but could have a key moment that decides a game. Off the top of my head I can think of removing papa G's invuln right before you hit him, or reducing the move of a nasty assault unit right before they hit your lines.

As an undivided player I've had at least a few moments where I needed a spell to go off (whether planned or in response to a sudden threat), and have it fail before my eyes and cost me heavily. If I could have at the time I would have loved for the chance to burn 2 CP and remove whatever mary sue character is making my life hell, as I find is often the case in 8th.

Agreed on the exalted aura though. But on the other hand rubric shooting would be even less effective, unless you take ahriman every game or tether a prince to your lines.

superbit415 wrote:
Everyone keeps pointing out that the rubrics didn't get any stratagems of their own. Which is a valid criticism but I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail. They didn't even bother to put a simple re-roll failed psychic tests for 1 or 2 CP, which i would think is a no brainier for the thousands sons.

probably because you can already re-roll a failed psychic test for 1cp?

We've got three characters who get casting bonuses, a casting bonus warlord trait, some kind of thing as a relic (its bad, but it makes spells more reliable at least in theory) access to a free re-roll psychic power through daemons or DPs, a tzeentch stratagem that over half our casters can benefit from that allows rerolls of all psychic tests for being near daemon allies, and a one-use reroll of a psychic test on the shaman.

How many more would be acceptable here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zhan wrote:

 hippyjr wrote:

Zhan wrote:
Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.

The point I was trying to make was that TS have lots of ways to boost their psykers. But what you say is true, there is nothing specifically for exalted sorcerers,
Even taking out the methods that require specific models/the warlord, there are still 3 small boosts you can use (two single dice rerolls and the +2 for bunching up) - I'm not adding the boon as that is not even close to reliable.

So if you are trying to cast a big spell that could swing the game, you could at least have someone cast gaze of fate, maybe also burn a CP for a reroll for at least a fair chance to cast.

You cannot use the re-roll stratagem in the psychic phase due to perils of the warp. Aspiring (1W) and scarab occult sorcerers (2W) have a 100% and 50% of blowing up instantly when they suffer a single perils of the warp. In most case requiring you not only take a away the sorcerer but also a additional models from the unit (mortal wounds spill over) + you have to do D3 wounds to anything nearby. If you play with TS and you will find that you cant use the re-roll stratagem in a psychic phase due to the constant liability of getting screwed over by a perils throw.

And big spells. i don't agree that TS have such big spells at all. All single use spells are still maxed at D3 wounds. No more potent then a regular smite and certainly nothing approaching what some shooting/assault units can do.

Yes we get the +2 to cast stratagem but aside from paying command points and having an another requirement, we also have access to THE ONLY two WC9 spells in the game.
Why would i be happy i got a +2 stratagem so i attempt to cast a WC9 spell when other armies have powers that don't go high than WC7/8 ?

EDIT: All of this could have been easily fixed if exalted sorcerers would have gotten the re-roll 1 on psychic tests instead of a re-roll 1 to hit. It would leave them as superior choice in casting spells over a daemon prince + they would protect the rubrics/scarabs from being suicide bombers and helping all units in casting those WC7+ powers.

You can absolutely use the reroll stratagem to prevent perils of the warp. What would prevent you from doing so?

If you're saying that you can't use it because you're worried about perils, you have a few options. 1) accept risk reward. 2) cast with perils-vulnerable casters first, then when theyre out of the way dont worry about it. 3) use gaze of fate and hold that reroll over.

I would (and have) roll 2 dice for an 8 spell if the spell was crucial. and if it WAS crucial, id suck the perils if it occurs.

that spell may be more important then 2-3 models or a few wounds.

with Ahriman ill usually run an exalted as another warlord, and a termie sorcerer for dang sure. +1 on most casts id toss out. at least with 2, and the termie sorcerer will generally only have 1 "must cast" spell.

Messiah wrote:

Um.. no. Thousand sons are a few millimeters shorter than Primaris marines, and that is with the TS standing on more or less straight legs, and Primaris bensing their legs quite a bit..

Right they're not as big as them, but proportionally they're similar. Put a new Rubric up against an old CSM/Rubric.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hippyjr wrote:


stratagems: +2 if next to two other casters, +1 if you roll well on the boon of tzeentch table (unlikely but still possible),

Actually it's about 30% since a roll of 7 is choose one.

Am I getting right that the TS HQ auras of rerolling ones work on vehicles? As well as the Mutalith Vortex Beasts powers?

Heelidar wrote:
Am I getting right that the TS HQ auras of rerolling ones work on vehicles? As well as the Mutalith Vortex Beasts powers?

The HQ aura should if it follows the patterns et by every other generic reroll 1 to hit aura, can't comment on the vortex beast.

Can tzangors still use rhinos?

Curzex wrote:
Can tzangors still use rhinos?

Sure, but it's not worth putting them in there though i'm sure some will disagree.

You can absolutely use the reroll stratagem to prevent perils of the warp. What would prevent you from doing so?

If you're saying that you can't use it because you're worried about perils, you have a few options. 1) accept risk reward. 2) cast with perils-vulnerable casters first, then when theyre out of the way dont worry about it. 3) use gaze of fate and hold that reroll over.

I think they should FAQ it so that when the psyker dies each unit except that of the psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. Because the Psyker unit already took mortal wounds from perils and remember mortal wounds spill over. I think when writing the rules they didn't give much thought to units containing psykers like the rubric and just assumed all psykers are single characters.

Is it confirmed that 1k Sons daemon princes also give reroll 1s to Tzeentch Daemons, in addition to 1k Sons models?

Yup.

A mixed TS/daemon force can be quite powerful.

Zhan wrote:

Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.

But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?

The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?

Crazy idea and all, but maybe you shouldn't use Smite when the target is a 4 point Guardsmen (there are no 3 point Guardsmen anymore)? Sorta like you shouldn't overload Plasma without a reroll to kill a 1 wound model with a 5+ save.

Zhan wrote:

Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.

But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?

The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?

You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.

Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Zhan wrote:

Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.

But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?

The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?

You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.

Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.

^this. Do I agree with Gw's bonkers decision to make psychic powers ONLY deal mortal wounds? Nooope, tbh I think we're already out of design space within these parameters - all you can allow within a reasonable number of warp charges are 1-3 mortals, with a cap of up to 6 in edge cases. We have spells like "firestorm" that seem like anti-horde abilities, but they're exactly like every other one...

But there's no reason you can't make use of mortal wound spells against guard or other horde armies. Use it to whack their force multiplier characters from range. Guard especially hate the combo of casting Gaze of Fate to set yourself up for a guaranteed reroll, then hitting a company commander or psyker with Gift of Chaos. 3+D3 mortal wounds kill most of the obnoxious little guard characters, then you can put a spawn down directly in combat with units they were next to.

Even if you don't want to get that fancy, Firestorm, Doombolt, Gift, and Gaze all can hit characters that would normally be protected from shooting attacks. Sure, you can't run an all psyker army without having bad matchups, just like you can't run an all-vehicle army or an all-infantry or an all-plasma gun army without having the same problems. But you can definitely create a solid, viable army with 12-15 psychic casts in it.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Zhan wrote:

Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.

But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?

The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?

You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.

Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.

alextroy wrote:

Zhan wrote:

Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.

But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?

The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?

Crazy idea and all, but maybe you shouldn't use Smite when the target is a 4 point Guardsmen (there are no 3 point Guardsmen anymore)? Sorta like you shouldn't overload Plasma without a reroll to kill a 1 wound model with a 5+ save.

And both of you prove my point. Psychic phase is only an addendum to shooting/assault. As support tool for rest of the game. Not at all what was said/implemented with the release of the TS in the 7th edition.

If I had known they would make psykers units into support units for I would never started a TS army.

So yeah I feel cheated by GW in this. They got their money in 6 months and then killed it off. Go buy tzaangors to help with shooting/assault so you can what every other army does.

About "perils of the warp", i'll repeat:

Apparently in the new codex there is no clarification or mention to what happens when an aspiring sorcerer from the Rubric marines squads or a scarab ocult sorcerer from the SOT suffers "perils of the warp".

I asked the question some months ago in the Rules question subforum and people could not agreed in to what happens, so it would need a clarification about it, but GW did not have answered or acknowledged this question.

Grey Knight squads have their own rule about this situation, stating that the full squad is the one that suffers 1D3 mortal wounds and it only spills if the squad is wiped out.

In the case of the TS squads, the punishment for "perils of the warp" is too hard. According to some interpretations, the sorcerer suffering perils... would die (so the squad would be useless in the psychic phase), then the power would fail, then the remaining wounds would spill on the squad of the dead sorcerer (as in case of the aspiring sorcerers, they have only 1 wound), and then it would spill 1D3 additional mortal wounds on every squad in 6" from the aspiring sorcerer, and that would include his own squad.

So a single rubric marine squad can potentially suffer 6 mortal wounds when trying to cast a psychic power, something that the squad is paying a premium in points to do, and something that is most of the time useless, or as i said, suicidal... It seems that GW just did not have in account the TS squads when they did the "perils..." rules, because to me is too punishing and too risky for too little reward. It is just bad design and a situation that is not well explained or covered in the rules, i don't think is fair to blame the players in this case.

I think we should contact GW and ask about this specific case to learn what to do in game and to see if they can give us a better rule (for example, the GK rule would be much much better), or if they can clarify it in any way in the FAQs.

 Warpspy wrote:

I think we should contact GW and ask about this specific case to learn what to do in game and to see if they can give us a better rule (for example, the GK rule would be much much better), or if they can clarify it in any way in the FAQs.

Done.

Zhan wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Zhan wrote:

Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.

But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?

The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?

You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.

Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.

alextroy wrote:

Zhan wrote:

Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.

But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?

The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?

Crazy idea and all, but maybe you shouldn't use Smite when the target is a 4 point Guardsmen (there are no 3 point Guardsmen anymore)? Sorta like you shouldn't overload Plasma without a reroll to kill a 1 wound model with a 5+ save.

And both of you prove my point. Psychic phase is only an addendum to shooting/assault. As support tool for rest of the game. Not at all what was said/implemented with the release of the TS in the 7th edition.

If I had known they would make psykers units into support units for I would never started a TS army.

So yeah I feel cheated by GW in this. They got their money in 6 months and then killed it off. Go buy tzaangors to help with shooting/assault so you can what every other army does.

Yeah, psychic powers were never a support tool for the rest of the game in 7th no sir. Everyone took the powers that allowed you to use your psykers as direct damage units and made their entire army out of psykers - Pyromancy powers, Smite, Doombolt - I can't count the number of times I passed up crap support powers like Invisibility, Iron Arm, Warp Speed and other garbage like that to get my psykers the offensive punch they needed.