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Greetings fellow Slaanesh players!



I have been playing Slaanesh Chaos somethings in 40k on and off, since 3rd edition. Below is detailing the changes from Index: Chaos to Codex: Chaos Daemons, and my comments on the unit in general.

TL;DR; Slaanesh loves a good dicking and no one gives it better to Slaanesh than Games Workshop.

The cover said “Codex: Chaos Daemons” what I bought was “Codex: Nurgle Daemons with Friends”.

UNITS
HQ
The Masque of Slaanesh
Changes from Index: Chaos
Lost weapon Piercing Claw
Gained weapon Serrated Claw
Comments
The Masque hits a little harder with her new Serrated Claw weapon. With additional units gaining the “Daemonette” Keyword her Locus ability has new utility with other units in the Codex.

Keeper of Secrets
Changes from Index: Chaos
Gained Mesmerizing Aura ability
Comments
Still inferior and more expensive, compared to Daemon Prince. Coming in at 43pts higher than a Winged Daemon Prince. Also, the bracket values of M, S, A, is just brutal for what is supposed to be a close combat monster. Mesmerizing Aura doesn’t prevent the Keeper of Secrets from being a lascannon/missile magnet in the shooting phase.

Herald of Slaanesh
Changes from Index: Chaos
Lost weapon Piercing Claws
Gained weapon Ravaging Claws
Gained Keyword “Daemonette”
Renamed Ability Herald of Slaanesh changed to Locus of Slaanesh
*Only Herald unit without a name change. Common GW. Harbinger of Ecstasy, Pleasure Bringer, Soul Taster, etc. Just look at Deviant Art usernames for 20 minutes.
Comments
The aura ability is the real reason to take the Herald of Slaanesh. +1S is a massive force multiplier for Slaanesh daemons against the ubiquitous MEQ. Changing a Daemonette’s 2 claw attacks from a 0.296 chance to kill a MEQ to a 0.370 chance.

Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
Changes from Index: Chaos
Unit omitted from Codex: Chaos Daemons
Comments
While still playable from Index: Chaos she didn’t get the Herald of Slaanesh’s new claw weapon either. It is a shame the Herald of Slaanesh on Steed didn’t get the “Unholy Speed” change that the Seeker entry received in the codex.

Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker Chariot
Herald of Slaanesh on Exalted Seeker Chariot
Changes from Index: Chaos
Unit omitted from Codex: Chaos Daemons
Comments
Fun fact #1 the “Start Collecting! Daemons of Slaanesh” box uses a chariot Herald of Slaanesh as its HQ. Meaning new players need both Index: Chaos and Codex: Chaos Daemons, to play with their starter box.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Start-Collecting-Daemons-of-Slaanesh

Fun fact #2 the Herald of Slaanesh chariots are also one of the few unit entries to be removed from a codex while still having a model.

Daemon Prince
Changes from Index: Chaos
Changed weapon option prices to Codex: Chaos Space Marines Daemon Prince values
Lost weapon Warp Bolter option
Comments
The Chaos Space Marine version of the Daemon Prince still seems stronger. Chaos Space Marine “Prince of Chaos” aura works for all Chaos models where the Chaos Daemons only works on Chaos Daemons. Also, having the “Death to the False Emperor” ability. The Chaos Space Marine psychic power also are stronger with Warp Time, Diabolical Strength, and Death Hex.

I kind of feel GW needs to give the Chaos Daemon, Daemon Princes variant something extra to make up for it the intrinsic bonus its Chaos Marine cousin gets. It is still the go to HQ choice for Chaos Daemons though.

Elite
Fiends of Slaanesh
Changes from Index: Chaos
(No changes)
Comments
Remaining wildly overpriced to the point it effects their playability. As 5 Fiends of Slaanesh cost more than a 5-man terminator assault squad. A moderate point reduction is what is holding back this unit from being an all-star pick.

Troops
Daemonettes
Changes from Index: Chaos
(No changes)
Comments
Too slow to march across the board without being ravaged. Small units lack the punch to do much in combat. Too weak to hold an objective. Extremely vulnerable to morale tests. Seekers of Slaanesh are just a stronger pick.

Fast Attack
Seekers of Slaanesh
Changes from Index: Chaos
Changed “Unholy Speed” ability from re-roll failed charges from advance and charge.
*Didn’t gain the keyword “Daemonette”? Seems like a mistake
Comments
This is what I consider the most playable unit for Slaanesh daemons. Fast enough to get in combat. Enough attacks to make an impact. I was hoping that Lashing Tongue would be User Strength + 1 rather than fixed.

I am on the fence on the Unholy Speed change is a buff or a nerf. The change puts a character tax to run Seekers of Slaanesh. Where before they could operate without an HQ and tie up enemy units.

Hellflayer
Changes from Index: Chaos
Gained one additional Attack characteristic
*Didn’t gain the keyword “Daemonette” like the other chariots? Seems like a mistake
Comments
I still honestly don’t know what this chariot is for. Bladed Axle while high strength has low AP, it isn’t really that great at hurting vehicles. Other than wounding on a 2+ it isn’t great against MEQ for the same AP reason.

Heavy Support
Seeker Chariot
Changes from Index: Chaos
Gained one additional Attack characteristic
Changed “Scything Impact” to remove the flavor text first sentence
Gained Keyword “Daemonette”
Comments
Still to slow and easy to kill at range for a close combat unit. Seekers are a better pick for the durability.

Exalted Seeker Chariot
Changes from Index: Chaos
Gained two additional Wound characteristics
Changed Bracket intervals favorably changed
Change Exalted Seeker Chariot costs 8 more points
Gained Keyword “Daemonette”
Comments
All problems of the other chariots but also gets slower when it is damaged Fantastic.

Stratagems
Locus of Grace
My favorite Slaanesh stratagem out of the Codex. What makes this stratagem a winner is that is an additional aura on a character for 1 CP. For your quantity attack units such as 30 Daemonettes on average will generate on average 15 extra attacks. For your quality attacks such like a Daemon prince there is a reasonable chance get one extra attack.

Aura of Acquiescence
Good against multi-attack horde units (Ork Boyz, Genestealers, etc). Against elite close combat units, I think it is more debatable if the chance of possibly saving a few daemon models is worth 1 CP.

Rapturous Standard
Seems slightly weaker compared to the other Chaos God’s standards. Slaanesh units have a high WS of either 2+ or 3+ by default. A unit could be less dependent on the presence of a Daemon Prince for a close combat round. Since you must choose this stratagem at the start of the game it may be better for a deep striking unit.

Warlord Traits
Celerity of Slaanesh
Handy if you are running lots of fast units like Seekers or Fiends. Fast HQs like a Daemon Prince or Keeper of Secrets can reasonably keep up with their screening unit. Other than the fast units your Warlord should be able to keep up with the rest of your army without this.

Quicksilver Duelist
Sounds good on paper but most players will hide their characters against your HQs. Depending on your opponent there could be better chances to assassinate their characters. Most of my games have been like peeling off layers of an onion to get to an HQ in the center.

The Murderdance
I think this is the best of the warlord traits. Daemons are often the ones initiating charges and this gives you D3 more quality attacks on your HQ. Even a bad roll is still +1A.

Fatal Caress
Not bad if you are running a Keeper of Secrets or a Daemon Prince with Malefic Talons. HQs with 4 attacks like Daemon Prince with Sword/Axe, or Heralds, this trait isn’t going to have much impact.

Savage Hedonist
The safer version of The Murderdance, with a permeant +1A. Good pick for an HQ when going against close combat armies. Pairs well with the Mark of Excess artifact.

Bewitching Aura
Another defensive trait that has synergy with the stratagem Aura of Acquiescence. If anything in close combat that is going to kill your Keeper of Secrets or Daemon Prince, it is going to be units with high strength attacks. Surviving a charge to strike back makes a big difference in the fight phase.

Artifacts
The Forbidden Gem
High risk, high reward, artifact. It is really, really, dependent on your opponent’s army if it is even worth taking. If there wasn’t a LD check associated with this I think it would be a stronger artifact choice. As the Characters you would want to shut down have high LD values. 3D6 average is 11.5 so you should be safe but with a crap roll you can waste an artifact.

The Mark of Excess
An interesting synergy with Quicksilver Duelist or Savage Hedonist. It is a shame you can’t double up on Soulstealer and Mark of Excess, to make truly terrifying close combat monster.

Soulstealer
The best of the artifacts. It is a better pick for a Daemon Prince as the profile is an upgrade over the Hellforged Sword but for the Keeper of Secret’s Witstealer Sword, it is a side grade. The healing ability adds staying power for either HQ. The Aeldari is interesting flavor but as most of their units are T3 it is better for vehicle or Wraith, hunting.

Slothful Claws
Solid weapon with one flaw. Heralds of Slaanesh shouldn’t be involved in combat. Maybe in a smaller game this may be useful where you don’t have the luxury of a Herald of Slaanesh hiding.

Psychic Powers
Cacophonic Choir
With some setup this can cause a lot of mortal wounds by casting Phantasmagoria, Night Lord allies, Zarakynel, and so on. I am not sure investing so much points for a single psychic power is worth it. As with the average LD of 7 though you have a reasonable risk of a successful cast not doing anything.

Symphony of Pain
Good for degrading a unit’s combat ability. As it can hinder say a Leman Russ Punisher or make an advancing mob of Ork Boyz require a 7+ to hit with their Shootas. Goes well with the Masque’s locus ability to get a -2 to hit against Daemonettes in close combat.

Hysterical Frenzy
For the times you were charge in the previous round or otherwise still in combat. The warp charge value is high, so it is risk to cast.

Delightful Agonies
If this was the Chaos Space Marine version of same spell it would be hands down the best Slaanesh power. The idea of giving a 5++ FNP to a Slaanesh unit gives the survivability it desperately needs to get into combat. With the downgraded 6++ FNP for Chaos Daemons it is just an okay pick.

Pavane of Slaanesh
Interesting as a gambling smite. Has potentially a big reward against high model count units.

Phantasmagoria
If the leadership mechanics weren’t already trivial in in 8th edition this might be useful. Your average 7LD unit of 10 will have to lose 8 members before it can lose a member. Orkz have mob rule, Tyranids have synapse links, Imperial Guard have commissars, Space Marines are LD8 with sergeants, Eldar are LD8, and so on. Other Chaos Daemons are oddly enough one of the few other armies in the game that field large groups units without a morale mitigating mechanic.

There is some synergy with Cacophonic Choir, but you are just better off smiting twice.

Daemonic Loci
Slaanesh: Locus of Swiftness
Comments
This doesn’t seem like a bonus rather something that should be an inherit ability of all Slaanesh daemons. As this is supposed to be the “speed” army.

Random Thoughts
Daemons just costs too much
I was hoping to see some mass point reductions like Codex: Craftworld Eldar received but nothing really changed. Chaos Daemons are all ready inflexible due to a limit pool of units. Even more so when most of the Slaanesh units are just plain bad (all 3 chariots) or over cost (Fiends & Keeper of Secrets). Even some of the better units like Herald of Slaanesh, Daemonettes, and Seekers, could use a small point drop or some kind of buff to justify the point value.

5++ isn’t good enough for HQs
Heralds and Greater Daemons, flat out need a better save than 5++. This is more of a Khorne and Slaanesh, problem as Tzeetch is 4++ and Nurgle has FNP. 8th edition is way too shooty and with variable damage weapons Greater Daemons are nowhere as survivable as in past editions. As the Keeper of Secrets just melts because of how easy it is to put wounds on him with a 5++. Heralds of Slaanesh are just too expensive and fragile to commit to combat and only useful for a psychic power and +1 S aura.

It kind of stinks so many of characters do nothing but buff my army.

It isn’t so much of a glass cannon as it is just glass
Slaanesh daemons aren’t even the fastest movement faction currently in 8th edition. Emo/Clown/Boat-Coward Eldar troop units also have movement values of 7/8. Their various vehicles and jetbikes are also faster than Slaanesh chariots and Seekers. I kind of expect that Slaanesh daemons should be at least as fast as anything Eldar has.

The value of “rend” wounds have been devalued by the sheer amount of FNP and invulnerable saves, floating around the game. Without a Herald of Slaanesh to bump most Slaanesh daemons to S4 it is kind of a bummer rolling huge piles of dice to just fish wounds rolls of ‘6’.

A missed opportunity for a stratagem or psychic spell, that allows rends to become mortal wounds would give MEQ armies some pause.

Genestealers are just superior, slightly less sexy, Daemonettes
A single Daemonette is 7 pts and a single Genestealer is 10pts. A Genestealer for those 3 additional points gains M8, S4, T4, A3, LD9, the ability to advance and charge, and optionally weapon upgrades. Additionally, synapse makes the unit immune to morale checks. A max Genestealer brood of 20 is 200pts vs 210 for 30 Daemonettes and that is really 235pts because you need the Icon and Instrument upgrades. At max for both groups Genestealers get 80 S4 rending hits vs the Daemonettes 90 S3 rending hits.

Command Points for Deep Strike Won’t Counter Gunline
The “Denizens of the Warp” stratagem caused a lot of talk due to the abusive things you could do with it but most of those ideas were taking units outside of Codex: Chaos Daemons. It is also frustrating being out maneuvered by my opponent’s deep strike because other codices give the ability to deep strike as an innate ability without spending CP and their units have the staying power to hold off on deep striking for a few rounds.

To maximize your deep strike protentional you need to drop 20 size Daemonettes units which are on the cusp of losing their group bonus ability. While Seekers in any meaningful numbers will be a 2CP deep strike.

Morale Problem
I was hoping GW would add a morale mechanic for Chaos Daemons in the codex as it is the only horde army without one. Also, Chaos Daemons are the most expensive troop choices of the horde armies at 7pts vs 5pts forguard/boyz/gaunts. Having models slain is extra hurtful because most of the time we will lose ½ as many again in the morale phase.

As a flavor mechanic I find it strange that Chaos Daemon units do not have a -1LD to enemy unit’s ability while Chaos Marine Raptors or Space Marine Reivers, do. On that note it seems silly that a Blood Thirstier would be frightened by a Space Marine Reiver with a skull mask that is making spooky noises.

Wait?! Wtf! Why was the chariot not in the codex? It has a model in the starter box! That's like GW removing marine captains from the codex!

I'm really hoping the lackluster changes to Slaanesh are because they're going to be more fully addressed in an Emperor's Children codex.

Good review, that's pretty much every thing I had thought of when I read the codex. I was struggling to find a reason for seekers but in a pure slaanesh army they do make sense as one of the few decent units we can take. Personally I still prefer feinds but those models are expensive.

Maybe? it doesn't look like the Thousand Son codex has much in the way of daemons. There is still the long-running rumor mill of the plastic Keeper of Secrets and daemon Fulgrim, waiting to be released.

I was a little snarky with the review but I honestly was not expecting any new units for Slaanesh in the codex. I was not expecting to lose HQ options either. What disappointed me the most was the lack of unit point adjustments or unit buffs. I have come to accept Slaanesh is one ladder rung up from squats at this point.

Before the codex my go to list was

Outrider Detachment
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon

Outrider Detachment
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon

Supreme Command Detachment
Winged Daemon Prince with malefic talons
Winged Daemon Prince with malefic talons
Winged Daemon Prince with malefic talons

This list is fast, lots of turn 1 charge potential, and had no vehicles for my opponent to shoot. In a December ITC I came in 4/16 running this list.

Last Saturday there was another ITC tournament where I came in 15/16. Each loss was by 1 or 2 ITC points. The biggest factor was it took too long activate so many units. I spent a lot of time rolling attacks fishing for rending wounds. If each game had gone on one more turn I would have tabled or won by ITC points.

My list was

Battalion Detachment
Winged Daemon Prince with malefic talons
Daemons x30 +icon +instrument
Daemons x30 +icon +instrument
Daemons x29 +icon +instrument

Outrider Detachment
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon
Seekers of Slaanesh x10 +instrument +icon

Supreme Command Detachment
Winged Daemon Prince with Soulstealer
Herald of Slaanesh
Masque of Slaanesh

The idea was too deep strike Daemonettes in while the Seekers run-up to charge. Didn’t really work out that way.

Before even playing, I screwed up. By taking daemonettes in x20 size groups it is 1CP to deep strike instead of 2Cp for x30. For the same 4CP I could have deep strike 3 x20 daemonette squads + 1 herald of Slaanesh for 4CP.

In either case, I could spend half of my CP just to deep strike 2 units of daemonettes.

Overall, it was fun day. My opponents were all good sports. I had some bad dice that day losing initiative all 3 games. I also didn't get a single '1' roll for morale checks until game 3. I did make some mistakes as well.

Game 1 vs Ultramarines
Xiphos flyer
Rowboat Girlyman
Captain
Apothecary
Whirlwind
Levathian Dreadnought (shooty)
Predator
Sicaran tank
Centurions x3

The Centurions and Dreadnought, basically destroyed half of my army. With the Rowboat's aura almost every hit and wound happened. I deep striked 1 daemonette group that managed to charge Rowboat. He fell back, and the entire squad was mowed down by the centurions and morale test. I also failed a 7" charge with one of the Seeker units (rolled snake eye’s twice) which didn't help.

The 3++ on Rowboat and 4++ on the Dreadnought tar-pitted my army. As it negated my “rending” wounds. In the end, he had the whirlwind, a half health predator, the captain, apothecary, and 1 centurion.

I made some mistakes for sure and he played very well. In hindsight taking my normal 60 seekers would have gotten me into combat sooner. As I lost half my army in the first 2 turns just getting over.

Game 2 vs Blood Angels
(I don't recall all the unit names)
Lots 5 size scouts, tact squad, and devastator squads
Jump pack honor guard blob
Jump pack death company blob
3 x3 Intceptors squads
Whirlwind
Captain with artifact thunder hammer and storm shield
Ancient
Apothecary

This game started out better. My seekers were diving into the small squads across the map. Both deep strike daemoentte units failed their charges. I had this Captain with 1 wound but that storm shield gave him staying power. If he had failed one more save I would have won the game or if I could have smited him to death on my turn.

Mid game I became outmaneuvered by his deep striking jump squads using the 3d6 charge stratagem and the redeploy stratagem. One more round of combat I most likely would have killed all his characters for a modest win.

Game 3 vs Tyranids
3 x20 genestealers
x2 broodlords
x30 devilgaunts
Trygon prime
flying hive tyrant
x3 neurothropes
Exorcrine

Last game against a friend of mine who I am used to playing. Losing initiative, he charged with genestealers basing, piling in, and consolidating everything he could. The big difference this time was popping Locus of Grace which effected 75% of my army. The counterattack was brutal he lost both units of genestealers he charged in with.

Start of turn 2 he only had the Hive Tyrant, Neurothropes, and Exorcine left. Then the game was over because it took 2.5 hours to finish 1.5 turns. I honestly don't know if I could have caught the flying hive tyrant with his 16M and fly. I would have killed everything else and just camped objectives for a win.




My take away from trying to “Denizens of the Warp” with Slaanesh units is this. Without a stratagem to reroll failed charges (which the Seekers have) you have 41.7% to roll the 8+ if you have an instrument or 27.8% for the 9+. With seekers and instrument this becomes 66% to roll 8+ with reroll and 48% on 9+. “Denizens of the Warp” also negates the speed and Locus, ability of Slaanesh units for that first round. Obviously deep striking gets Daemonettes to the enemy in 1 round instead of 2 or 3. But deep striking better benefits Nurgle daemons for their slow speed, Khorne daemons for their charge reroll, or Tzeetch because they most likely can just shoot since they don’t care about charges.

The other issue is just the CP cost. Taking 20 daemonettes for 1 CP means any models slain by overwatch drops your +1A bonus. You also need to drop enough daemonettes down to account for on average half won’t make the charge. Daemonettes in the open are rapid fire bait and once you lose more than 7 in a round a lot are going to be removed by the morale test further weakening the unit. Taking 30 daemonettes gives you more buffer but for 2CP it is a big investment. Seekers can only drop in units of 5 which I don’t feel are large enough to do anything but base. Although 2CP to drop 20 seekers is another option. In either case I just feel “Denizens of the Warp” is too expensive for Slaanesh units as we don’t have the punch of a blood letter or shooting of a horror or the staying power of a plaguebearer. I also don’t like that I must buy back abilities like fleet via Locus with character tax or spend CP to deep strike, when these things have been a Slaanesh daemon staple since 3rd edition.

There is also a problem with GW not giving Daemon players the tools they need to deal with gun lines. Soul Grinders are obscenely overvalued especially when the Defiler exists which has more shooting for less points. Daemons don’t have much options of dealing with flyers other than smite or melee attacks. The morale test makes large units of daemons a liability rather than intimidating your opponent.

For having the new Codex I don’t really feel a power bump for this ITC.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
Good review, that's pretty much every thing I had thought of when I read the codex. I was struggling to find a reason for seekers but in a pure slaanesh army they do make sense as one of the few decent units we can take. Personally I still prefer feinds but those models are expensive.

if fiends were like 25-35pts, I would agree with you on they would be a compelling alternative to Seekers. They have a nice kit but they are just a little too expensive. Now that they can advance and charge with a character they can be as mobile as Seekers were. My experience with friends have been they attract anti-tank weapons because they are W3 and T4.

Slaanesh got some interesting stuff. Clearly you don't have enough here to build a full-on Slaanesh army. It's unfortunate but it's true.

One point: Genestealers are 12 points for Tyranids, more for GSC. So, effectively double the cost of daemonettes. They have a 5++ save. Genestealers also do not have a - to hit ability, or any available rerolls. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

 Marmatag wrote:
Slaanesh got some interesting stuff. Clearly you don't have enough here to build a full-on Slaanesh army. It's unfortunate but it's true.

One point: Genestealers are 12 points for Tyranids, more for GSC. So, effectively double the cost of daemonettes. They have a 5++ save. Genestealers also do not have a - to hit ability, or any available rerolls. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Oh, I see the base Genestealer is 10pts if you want rending claws it is +2ots if you want scything talons it is +0pts.

Genestealer's "Lightning Reflex" ability gives them a 5++ in addition to their 5+. They can also take scything talons to reroll hits of '1' but sacrifices the rend chance.

The Broodlord's "Brood Telepathy" ability adds 1 to hit rolls to friendly Genestealer units. The Broodlord also has access to psychic power "The Horror" which is a longer range version of the Slaanesh psychic power "Symphony of Pain". Or the psychic spell "Catalyst" which is 5+ FNP which is same as the CSM "Delightful Agonies".

It is a terrible Codex for Slaanesh players. It raises so many questions and missed opportunities about the faction.

Comparing our units to others is downright depressing.

One positive of the Herald mount options not being in the codex is that you can get an effective +2 strength. +1 str from the "Herald of Slaanesh" ability and +1 str from the "Locus of Slaanesh" ability. Doesn't make Daemonettes better than Bloodletters though.

ntin wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Slaanesh got some interesting stuff. Clearly you don't have enough here to build a full-on Slaanesh army. It's unfortunate but it's true.

One point: Genestealers are 12 points for Tyranids, more for GSC. So, effectively double the cost of daemonettes. They have a 5++ save. Genestealers also do not have a - to hit ability, or any available rerolls. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Oh, I see the base Genestealer is 10pts if you want rending claws it is +2ots if you want scything talons it is +0pts.

Genestealer's "Lightning Reflex" ability gives them a 5++ in addition to their 5+. They can also take scything talons to reroll hits of '1' but sacrifices the rend chance.

The Broodlord's "Brood Telepathy" ability adds 1 to hit rolls to friendly Genestealer units. The Broodlord also has access to psychic power "The Horror" which is a longer range version of the Slaanesh psychic power "Symphony of Pain". Or the psychic spell "Catalyst" which is 5+ FNP which is same as the CSM "Delightful Agonies".

The Broodlord is also about double the cost of a foot herald though.

 Sim-Life wrote:

ntin wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Slaanesh got some interesting stuff. Clearly you don't have enough here to build a full-on Slaanesh army. It's unfortunate but it's true.

One point: Genestealers are 12 points for Tyranids, more for GSC. So, effectively double the cost of daemonettes. They have a 5++ save. Genestealers also do not have a - to hit ability, or any available rerolls. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Oh, I see the base Genestealer is 10pts if you want rending claws it is +2ots if you want scything talons it is +0pts.

Genestealer's "Lightning Reflex" ability gives them a 5++ in addition to their 5+. They can also take scything talons to reroll hits of '1' but sacrifices the rend chance.

The Broodlord's "Brood Telepathy" ability adds 1 to hit rolls to friendly Genestealer units. The Broodlord also has access to psychic power "The Horror" which is a longer range version of the Slaanesh psychic power "Symphony of Pain". Or the psychic spell "Catalyst" which is 5+ FNP which is same as the CSM "Delightful Agonies".

The Broodlord is also about double the cost of a foot herald though.

I think a wingless Daemon Prince is roughly analogous to the Broodlord and a better comparison than a Herald of Slaanesh. Both are roughly the same point cost, simular combat abilities, and both their aura's effect to hit rolls.

What’s the Slaanesh gimmick in this edition anyway? Fast speed? Rending? LD shenanigans?

ntin wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Slaanesh got some interesting stuff. Clearly you don't have enough here to build a full-on Slaanesh army. It's unfortunate but it's true.

One point: Genestealers are 12 points for Tyranids, more for GSC. So, effectively double the cost of daemonettes. They have a 5++ save. Genestealers also do not have a - to hit ability, or any available rerolls. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Oh, I see the base Genestealer is 10pts if you want rending claws it is +2ots if you want scything talons it is +0pts.

Genestealer's "Lightning Reflex" ability gives them a 5++ in addition to their 5+. They can also take scything talons to reroll hits of '1' but sacrifices the rend chance.

The Broodlord's "Brood Telepathy" ability adds 1 to hit rolls to friendly Genestealer units. The Broodlord also has access to psychic power "The Horror" which is a longer range version of the Slaanesh psychic power "Symphony of Pain". Or the psychic spell "Catalyst" which is 5+ FNP which is same as the CSM "Delightful Agonies".

No. Genestealers do not have the option to swap scytal for rending claws. It's rending claws for 12 ppm. Thats it. Genestealers always by default have rending claws. GSC Genestealers are 15.

They get scything talons in addition to rending claws as an option.

 Sim-Life wrote:
They get scything talons in addition to rending claws as an option.

Which doesn't reduce their cost. Which is the point. Genestealers, at no point, ever, cost 10ppm. Also, not really something I have seen anyone do. Even for free, rerolling 1s instead of ap + rending crit? Why the hell would you? I guess it makes sense against deamons... so... one army.

gnome_idea_what wrote:What’s the Slaanesh gimmick in this edition anyway? Fast speed? Rending? LD shenanigans?

Debuffing is the gimmick after Codex: Chaos Daemons. They have multiple ways add -cc hit and -attacks. Pure Slaanesh daemon lists can also advance and charge which adds gives an edge compared to other footslogging armies. Slaanesh models are average or slightly above average, movement speed.

Lance845 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
They get scything talons in addition to rending claws as an option.

Which doesn't reduce their cost. Which is the point. Genestealers, at no point, ever, cost 10ppm. Also, not really something I have seen anyone do. Even for free, rerolling 1s instead of ap + rending crit? Why the hell would you? I guess it makes sense against deamons... so... one army.

As already pointed out Genestealers can take scything talons in addition to claws

I made a mistake reading Genestealer's point costs as 10pts, instead of 10pts + 2pts claw. My original point still stands. Genestealers are still a fast-moving close combat unit with a high amount of attacks. Genestealers are most similar to Daemonettes then any unit in the game.

With the correct point costs, a 20 squad of Genestealers would be 240 pts vs 235 for 30 Daemonettes + upgrades. In a bubble without characters or locus or hive fleet. A difference of 5 points is insignificant in the average 2k point game. For 5 points you are getting a faster, stronger, and tougher, unit. At the loss of 10 S3 attacks and 10W.

Genestealers contrasting Daemonettes are 8M vs 7M, S4 vs S3, T4 vs T3, A3 vs A2, LD9 vs LD8. Genestealers can also advance and charge by default.

Genestealer group size needs to lose 50% their max unit size to lose the +1A bonus. Daemonette group size needs to lose 33% of their max unit size to lose the +1A bonus.

With a Brood Lord and Daemon Prince buff nearby. Genestealers now hit on a 2+ while Daemonettes reroll 1's. The Brood Lord also makes the Genestealers immune to morale checks. Both Hqs have beneficial psychic powers.

With Hivefleet Kraken and Slaanesh's Locus. Genestealers can advance with 3d6 pick highest and fallback/charge same turn. Daemonettes can now advance and charge.

Genestealers are better at being Daemonettes then Daemonettes are. This was the crux of my original argument. They are faster, tougher, hit harder, and (most of the time) unbreakable. I am not expecting Daemonettes to be equivalent stat line to Genestealers but I would expect Daemonettes to at least match a Genestealer in some auras like speed and attacks.

ntin wrote:


As already pointed out Genestealers can take scything talons in addition to claws

I made a mistake reading Genestealer's point costs as 10pts, instead of 10pts + 2pts claw. My original point still stands. Genestealers are still a fast-moving close combat unit with a high amount of attacks. Genestealers are most similar to Daemonettes then any unit in the game.

With the correct point costs, a 20 squad of Genestealers would be 240 pts vs 235 for 30 Daemonettes + upgrades. In a bubble without characters or locus or hive fleet. A difference of 5 points is insignificant in the average 2k point game. For 5 points you are getting a faster, stronger, and tougher, unit. At the loss of 10 S3 attacks and 10W.

Genestealers contrasting Daemonettes are 8M vs 7M, S4 vs S3, T4 vs T3, A3 vs A2, LD9 vs LD8. Genestealers can also advance and charge by default.

Genestealer group size needs to lose 50% their max unit size to lose the +1A bonus. Daemonette group size needs to lose 33% of their max unit size to lose the +1A bonus.

With a Brood Lord and Daemon Prince buff nearby. Genestealers now hit on a 2+ while Daemonettes reroll 1's. The Brood Lord also makes the Genestealers immune to morale checks. Both Hqs have beneficial psychic powers.

With Hivefleet Kraken and Slaanesh's Locus. Genestealers can advance with 3d6 pick highest and fallback/charge same turn. Daemonettes can now advance and charge.

Genestealers are better at being Daemonettes then Daemonettes are. This was the crux of my original argument. They are faster, tougher, hit harder, and (most of the time) unbreakable. I am not expecting Daemonettes to be equivalent stat line to Genestealers but I would expect Daemonettes to at least match a Genestealer in some auras like speed and attacks.

Let's make them fight. Daemonettes can have a herald for +1S (66 points). The GS can have their broodlord (162 points).

Daemonettes go first - always.

90 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 20 GS dead

Hrmm...I'm afraid I can't find any genestealers to attack back with.

Daemon princes are superior to Broodlords. Broodlords have low str and wounds, and a garbage save. The Horror is a limited range and requires you manifest it. A passive buff protects you from artillery. The horror does not.

People don't pay for a broodlord because hitting on 3s is enough for genestealers. A 5++ doesn't go as far as you might think on a 12ppm model.

These are not the same.

A closer comparison points wise is the Hormagant, which is 5 points. strength 3, 2 attacks, rerolls 1s from scything talons. No -1 hit, 8" move. 6+ save. 3toughness. no invuln. Would hormagants be worth 7 points if they had -1 to hit and a 5++? I think so.

And full stop; this comparison originated because the person has no clue about genestealers in the first place, saying they're 10 points. Get over it, different units different armies different SOUP.

Daedalus81 wrote:

ntin wrote:


As already pointed out Genestealers can take scything talons in addition to claws

I made a mistake reading Genestealer's point costs as 10pts, instead of 10pts + 2pts claw. My original point still stands. Genestealers are still a fast-moving close combat unit with a high amount of attacks. Genestealers are most similar to Daemonettes then any unit in the game.

With the correct point costs, a 20 squad of Genestealers would be 240 pts vs 235 for 30 Daemonettes + upgrades. In a bubble without characters or locus or hive fleet. A difference of 5 points is insignificant in the average 2k point game. For 5 points you are getting a faster, stronger, and tougher, unit. At the loss of 10 S3 attacks and 10W.

Genestealers contrasting Daemonettes are 8M vs 7M, S4 vs S3, T4 vs T3, A3 vs A2, LD9 vs LD8. Genestealers can also advance and charge by default.

Genestealer group size needs to lose 50% their max unit size to lose the +1A bonus. Daemonette group size needs to lose 33% of their max unit size to lose the +1A bonus.

With a Brood Lord and Daemon Prince buff nearby. Genestealers now hit on a 2+ while Daemonettes reroll 1's. The Brood Lord also makes the Genestealers immune to morale checks. Both Hqs have beneficial psychic powers.

With Hivefleet Kraken and Slaanesh's Locus. Genestealers can advance with 3d6 pick highest and fallback/charge same turn. Daemonettes can now advance and charge.

Genestealers are better at being Daemonettes then Daemonettes are. This was the crux of my original argument. They are faster, tougher, hit harder, and (most of the time) unbreakable. I am not expecting Daemonettes to be equivalent stat line to Genestealers but I would expect Daemonettes to at least match a Genestealer in some auras like speed and attacks.

Let's make them fight. Daemonettes can have a herald for +1S (66 points). The GS can have their broodlord (162 points).

Daemonettes go first - always.

90 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 20 GS dead

Hrmm...I'm afraid I can't find any genestealers to attack back with.

Genestealer's don't have a 2+ save? They have two ways to save or 33% chance to save because of 5 ++.

Slaanesh models don't always go first. If you charge then you get to activate a charging unit first then we alternative until you are out of charging units. Once you are out of charging units Slaanesh always goes first. Tyranids also have the psychic spell "Paroxysm" which negates the Slaanesh fight phase special rule.

Assuming both units are at full strength and all models get to fight.

If Daemonettes go first, 13 Genestealers slain. The unit will be destroyed by morale unless in synapse range. With a Herald of Slaanesh buff 20 Genestealers slain. With a Daemon Prince buff it is 15 Genestealers slain. With both buffs it is 23 Daemonette slain. According to the scenario, you constructed would require me to have a Herald of Slaanesh and Daemon Prince, to get the same combat potential of 20 unbuffed Genestealers.

If Genestealers go first, 23 Daemonette slain. The unit will be destroyed by morale unless the daemon player rolls a '1'. With a Broodlord buff 29 Daemonette slain.

Genestealers get 80 attacks
Against MEQ 17 slain
Against GEQ 31 slain

Daemonette gets 91 attacks
Against MEQ 15 slain
Against GEQ 26 slain

Marmatag wrote:Daemon princes are superior to Broodlords. Broodlords have low str and wounds, and a garbage save. The Horror is a limited range and requires you manifest it. A passive buff protects you from artillery. The horror does not.

People don't pay for a broodlord because hitting on 3s is enough for genestealers. A 5++ doesn't go as far as you might think on a 12ppm model.

These are not the same.

A closer comparison points wise is the Hormagant, which is 5 points. strength 3, 2 attacks, rerolls 1s from scything talons. No -1 hit, 8" move. 6+ save. 3toughness. no invuln. Would hormagants be worth 7 points if they had -1 to hit and a 5++? I think so.

And full stop; this comparison originated because the person has no clue about genestealers in the first place, saying they're 10 points. Get over it, different units different armies different SOUP.

Broodlord vs Daemon Prince isn't my argument?

Hormagaunts don't have an invun save, rending, or +1 attack for unit size? Why are they a better unit comparison than Genestealers?


You guys keep moving the goal post to construct new points for your argument. I am strictly speaking daemoenttes vs genestealers.

ntin wrote:


Genestealer's don't have a 2+ save? They have two ways to save or 33% chance to save because of 5 ++.

Inverted value i.e. they don't save 66%.

Slaanesh models don't always go first. If you charge then you get to activate a charging unit first then we alternative until you are out of charging units. Once you are out of charging units Slaanesh always goes first. Tyranids also have the psychic spell "Paroxysm" which negates the Slaanesh fight phase special rule.

Yes, sorry. I wasn't clear. They'd need a more threatening combat elsewhere.

It's going to come down to who has better speed bumps to get the charge advantage or if the Slaanesh player can force multiple critical combats, which is quite feasible. Realistically the GS would be at -1 or -2 attacks from spell and stratagem depending on how the movement phase was panning out. Possibly even -3 if the KoS is nearby.

Slaanesh has the chance to make them positively anemic. Now, yes, that means I've invested more, but if I can remove a 250 point unit with good capability from the table with little cost in models i'm going to do it.

That said it does look like Slaanesh is incomplete. They're the only ones who kept a "Herald". So hopefully something is coming for them sooner rather than later.

What is really comical is, just fielding straight from the codex, seekers will outrun any characters that can buff them with the locus. So if they roll well on their advance and move outside of the 6" bubble, they can't charge, or they just don't take advantage of the advance, thus completely defeating the purpose of the locus. So you really just run the risk of a fragile and expensive unit being left out in the open doing nothing.

Its like GW is telling me to shelve my slaanesh units.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
What is really comical is, just fielding straight from the codex, seekers will outrun any characters that can buff them with the locus. So if they roll well on their advance and move outside of the 6" bubble, they can't charge, or they just don't take advantage of the advance, thus completely defeating the purpose of the locus. So you really just run the risk of a fragile and expensive unit being left out in the open doing nothing.

Its like GW is telling me to shelve my slaanesh units.

It's not hard to Daisy chain when you have 30 models.

ClassicCarraway wrote:What is really comical is, just fielding straight from the codex, seekers will outrun any characters that can buff them with the locus. So if they roll well on their advance and move outside of the 6" bubble, they can't charge, or they just don't take advantage of the advance, thus completely defeating the purpose of the locus. So you really just run the risk of a fragile and expensive unit being left out in the open doing nothing.

Its like GW is telling me to shelve my slaanesh units.

For multiple seeker units, I think you pretty much have to bring in the Herald of Slaanesh on Steed or Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker Chariot, from Index: Chaos. As you said a foot Herald has no chance to keep up with a group of Seekers.

A winged Daemon Prince with Celerity of Slaanesh has the same advancing range as a unit of seekers with an instrument but a Herald of Slaanesh aura is more beneficial.

Zustiur wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
What is really comical is, just fielding straight from the codex, seekers will outrun any characters that can buff them with the locus. So if they roll well on their advance and move outside of the 6" bubble, they can't charge, or they just don't take advantage of the advance, thus completely defeating the purpose of the locus. So you really just run the risk of a fragile and expensive unit being left out in the open doing nothing.

Its like GW is telling me to shelve my slaanesh units.

It's not hard to Daisy chain when you have 30 models.

I think he is talking about Seekers not Daemonettes. Daisy chaining Seeker could also work but it is a lot more wasted points to do so.