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So I rely like the helldrake model and want to field it in my Daemons unit but not sure how it works.
If I take one and give it a mark, say tzeentch does it get the 4++ and/or do I still get the benefit of an all tzeentch army if the rest were tzeentch?

I think there's specific rules in Codex CSM but I've ploughed enough money into GW and don't really want to buy a whole new codex for one model.

It's only gets the 5++ save if it is demonic, that 5++ becomes a 4++ if it has the tzeentch special rule iirc its called ephoreal form or something like that.

Best way to get it into your army would be take your main daemon army, take a patrol detachment, take a lord, 2 of the cheapest troops, then take the heldrake. Or at -1 command point you can just take the Drake.

grr wrote:
So I rely like the helldrake model and want to field it in my Daemons unit but not sure how it works.
If I take one and give it a mark, say tzeentch does it get the 4++ and/or do I still get the benefit of an all tzeentch army if the rest were tzeentch?

I think there's specific rules in Codex CSM but I've ploughed enough money into GW and don't really want to buy a whole new codex for one model.

You would have to either use a Auxiliary Support Detachment or just include it and lose your Loci.

This forum isn't a replacement for the books. If you want a Heldrake you're going to have to buy it's rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

grr wrote:
So I rely like the helldrake model and want to field it in my Daemons unit but not sure how it works.
If I take one and give it a mark, say tzeentch does it get the 4++ and/or do I still get the benefit of an all tzeentch army if the rest were tzeentch?

I think there's specific rules in Codex CSM but I've ploughed enough money into GW and don't really want to buy a whole new codex for one model.

You would have to either use a Auxiliary Support Detachment or just include it and lose your Loci.

This forum isn't a replacement for the books. If you want a Heldrake you're going to have to buy it's rules.

Fair point on the rules, I don't want to break any forum rules.

That aside, it is perfectly acceptable to have it in a detachment of daemons (minus the loci) as it shares at least 1 category?

No. As soon as it is included the detachment ceases to be a daemon detachment (it does not have the daemon faction keyword)

As others here have said, use an auxiliary support detachment at the cost of 1 cp, or put it in a CSM patrol

 WindstormSCR wrote:
No. As soon as it is included the detachment ceases to be a daemon detachment (it does not have the daemon faction keyword)

As others here have said, use an auxiliary support detachment at the cost of 1 cp, or put it in a CSM patrol

Oh I think I may have completely misunderstood the rules. I thought because they shared the Chaos faction it was OK? Time to adjust my army lol

grr wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
No. As soon as it is included the detachment ceases to be a daemon detachment (it does not have the daemon faction keyword)

As others here have said, use an auxiliary support detachment at the cost of 1 cp, or put it in a CSM patrol

Oh I think I may have completely misunderstood the rules. I thought because they shared the Chaos faction it was OK? Time to adjust my army lol

That rule (found on page 214 of the main rulebook) is a completely separate rule to the one that the others have mentioned.

 Ghaz wrote:

grr wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
No. As soon as it is included the detachment ceases to be a daemon detachment (it does not have the daemon faction keyword)

As others here have said, use an auxiliary support detachment at the cost of 1 cp, or put it in a CSM patrol

Oh I think I may have completely misunderstood the rules. I thought because they shared the Chaos faction it was OK? Time to adjust my army lol

That rule (found on page 214 of the main rulebook) is a completely separate rule to the one that the others have mentioned.

OK, just to clarify that I'm not some cheap ass trying to suckle rules here and there to avoid buying all books lol, I have the BRB, Index:Chaos and Codexaemons . I was simply curious about how a heldrake added to a normally pure Daemons list works.

I think I have it figured out:
1. Can join a Daemon detachment because it shares the same faction
2. With a mark of Tzeentch does not benefit from ephemeral form as it does not specifically have it (may benefit from others but without Codex:SM which may be different from Index:Chaos we'll never know)
3. Has Daemon category so if given mark of tzeentch may allow the detachment to keep Loci (not 100% and too tired to re-read again so will try again tomorrow)

Reread the first paragraph (the one in bold) at the top of page 124 of Codex Chaos Daemons.

Ok let's try this again but with a bit more clarity.

Firstly, yes you can include the Heldrake in a daemon army.

If you were to make a detachment that included, for example, an Herald of tzeentch, a squad of 10 pink horror, and a heldrake, that detachment would be Battle-Forged, because they all share the CHAOS faction keyword, and thus such a detachment would be legal to play for Matched Play.

Now, would that detachment get to keep any daemons special rules? No. Because the detachment common keyword is CHAOS and not DAEMONS, the detachment is not a Daemon detachment and thus does not get the Locus of Tzeentch, acces to Daemon faction stratagem, and Daemon Artefacts. (The heldrakes doesn't have the Daemon FACTION keyword, only the regular DAEMON keyword.)

Finaly, would the heldrake gets the special rule Ephemereal form for being mark of tzeentch? Nope. This one is one that many older player have trouble with, marks don't actually grant you anything, they just restrict or give acces to certain OTHER spell or buff. The special rule Ephemereal form is just that, a common special rule included in the profile of many Tzeentch Daemon unit, but not explicitly on all Tzeentch daemon unit. You have to refer to each individual datasheet to know if a unit gets it or not, it will be written under the special rules.

Hope that helps clear everything .

grr wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

grr wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
No. As soon as it is included the detachment ceases to be a daemon detachment (it does not have the daemon faction keyword)

As others here have said, use an auxiliary support detachment at the cost of 1 cp, or put it in a CSM patrol

Oh I think I may have completely misunderstood the rules. I thought because they shared the Chaos faction it was OK? Time to adjust my army lol

That rule (found on page 214 of the main rulebook) is a completely separate rule to the one that the others have mentioned.

OK, just to clarify that I'm not some cheap ass trying to suckle rules here and there to avoid buying all books lol, I have the BRB, Index:Chaos and Codexaemons . I was simply curious about how a heldrake added to a normally pure Daemons list works.

I think I have it figured out:
1. Can join a Daemon detachment because it shares the same faction
2. With a mark of Tzeentch does not benefit from ephemeral form as it does not specifically have it (may benefit from others but without Codex:SM which may be different from Index:Chaos we'll never know)
3. Has Daemon category so if given mark of tzeentch may allow the detachment to keep Loci (not 100% and too tired to re-read again so will try again tomorrow)

1) no, it has the daemon keyword, but not the daemon faction keyword. by including it without being in a different detachment you lose all relics, stratagems and warlord traits from Codex: Chaos Daemons.
2) it does not gain ephemeral form, but would get other auras that affect daemon units (like the herald strength buff)
3) no for the reason of #1. a Heldrake cannot be taken without making it a Chaos detachment instead of a Chaos Daemons detachment.

upside: if you take a small patrol of CSM or Thousand Sons, to stuff the Heldrake into, you would gain access to either set of relics, warlord traits, and stratagems from whichever of those factions you choose.

Above is mostly correct, but warlord traits and relics are determined by your warlord only, not detachment composition.